UKC

Hi all, 

I'm in the market for a new sleeping bag with a mind to having it in the event of alpine bivvies. Not something I've had to do previously (limited experience) or have any desire to find myself having to do, but it's looking like the next year or so should have plenty of opportunities to do long alpine routes so having something suitable seems prudent (I assume). 

I've been looking at lightweight synthetic bags like the Alpkit Ultra 120 to use with a bivvy bag . Is this suitable for it or should I be looking at something warmer ? Any advice, suggestions or recommendations welcome as I've no idea.  

P.s. I'm talking summer alpine rock routes primarily and kind of unplanned-but-not-entirely-unexpected bivvis. 

In reply to MrTumnus:

Not sure exactly what you intended this to mean but it doesn't sound like a great strategy! 

If you plan to bivvy then take what you need to make it comfortable. If you don't plan to bivvy, take only what you need to get through it. The former will probably involve a sleeping bag the latter won't.

Also, unless you are allergic then down is the way to go for warmth:weight ratio and packability.

In reply to DaveHK:

Was thinking longer routes where you'd intend to get down but it's not impossible you wouldn't. I'm no Ueli Steck so getting through 18 pitches of whatever and getting down might not necessarily happen. I assume in these situations having some bits to make a potentially dangerous night into a merely really uncomfortable one is a good shout.

Was looking at synthetic as I thought that was the general advice if you can't guarantee it staying bone dry. 

I'm happy to be wrong - this is all the kind of thing I don't really know about as I've very limited experience

In reply to MrTumnus:

Unless there are specific reasons not to (like a complex descent or deteriorating snow conditions) it's almost always better to just keep moving. If you want some 'bits' for the just in case then a belay jacket and maybe a light survival bag/bothy bag covers that.

In reply to MrTumnus:

Are you planning to bivvy in the wet? It's a miserable experience and not particularly compatible with alpine rock climbing!

I'd say if you're not reasonably confident in getting up and off your objective in a day then you need to either have a planned bivvy or scale back your objectives. If you're doing a planned bivvy then only do so in good weather and consider bivvying below the route rather than on or after it so you don't need to carry the kit.

In reply to DaveHK:

Ah fair enough. Thank you. I'll save the cash 🙂

In reply to MrTumnus:

Sounds like a decent down jacket and light down trousers might fit the bill. Certainly more versatile.

In reply to MrTumnus:

By all means buy a new bag for bivvying, it's one of the most fun things about alpine climbing. I just don't think it's best to carry all that stuff just in case.

In reply to DaveHK:

No intending to bivvy in the wet, more just if you can bullet proof things why wouldn't you? The last thing we did was a 12 pitch route where we had problems with the walk off in fading daylight. Even with headtorches (we had) I'm not sure I'd have much fancied it in complete darkness and my o/h definitely wouldn't. 

The logic was literally to have one bag carried between us "in the event". If it's not really a thing I'll modify our aspirations

In reply to MrTumnus:

Because carrying the extra kit makes the climbing less fun and slows you up making benightment more likely. It's a sort of Catch-22, carrying the kit means it's more likely that you'll need it.

It's not really a thing in my experience. Better to take the time to get slick enough and competent enough that you can get up (and crucially, down) what are usually classed a one day routes in one day. Even if it's a very long day.

In reply to DaveHK:

No intending to bivvy in the wet, more just if you can bullet proof things why wouldn't you? 

Because carrying the extra kit makes the climbing less fun and slows you up

The bulletproofing part was addressing the down/synthetic question. I understand the weight/speed tradeoff. 

In reply to MrTumnus:

Alpine rock climbing is a dry weather activity. Yes, you can get caught out but I don't think the risk of that negates the advantages of down over synthetic.

The alpkit bag you suggested it doesn't look particularly heavy so I'm sure it would work, but a down bag of the same weight will almost certainly be warmer and more packable. And more expensive!

In reply to MrTumnus:

sleeping bags are for planned bivvis, you'd need to carry a larger rucksack, the extra weight will cost effort and slow down climbing

youtube.com/watch?v=rDNPcXwS9vk&
This is a semi-famous video from mountaineering scotland where they explored comfort levels in exposure on a mountain with different levels of trail running kit. I would be interested to see an equivalent experiment for an unplanned bivvi in a climbing context, although i lack the courage to test this myself.

in the video they have a blizzard jacket, the blizzard products are the 'best' of the thermal foil products although the bag is relatively big at 385g per person, and they're 'single-ish use'*.

for an unplanned-but-not-entirely-unexpected bivvi, my feeling is that an ultralite 2 person bothy bag (130g per person), with a pair of thick down jackets. is likely to be the winning combo in the tradeoff of weight/usability/warmth. I'd be interested to see the different options tested, I can't speak from experience.

In reply to MrTumnus:

I think its been said, but if you plan for an 'unplanned' bivvy, you will almost certainly need to bivvy !

In reply to MrTumnus:

My personal approach for what to carry if getting deep in do do is:

Really think I won't possibly bivi: 2 of the thinnest lightest (cheapest) foil survival bags I can find and the thinnest lightest sleeping bag liner I can find (which is 171g https://ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/core-liner/ but maybe not as warm as it might look in the picture, they're thin.. The idea is you go inside a survival bag, then wearing the survival bag climb inside the sleeping bag thermal liner, then all that inside the second foil survival bag. So the sleeping bag liner is sandwiched between the foil survival bags. It's not going to be warm and comfortable but you might survive. Very small and very light

I suspect I might bivi in some  unlikely but possible circumstances then a blizzard 3 layer bag https://www.steroplast.co.uk/blizzard-survival-bag.html

I plan to bivi:  then a decent synthetic bag and a Rab alpine bivi. But this is bulkier and heavier

Whatever approach, make sure you have something as an insulated mat under you. In emergency that can be a rucksack and coil of rope if nothing better.

In reply to CantClimbTom:

what is the theory behind the foil-liner-foil system? I don't understand the advantage of the inner foil layer. the major issue with the cheap foil bags is they get wet, i'd speculate that just the liner then 1 foil bag might even have slightly better moisture removal

I also think it would weigh about the same as the 3 layer blizzard bag which you suggest is a more reliable option. (2 foil bags at 100g each and the 171g liner)

In reply to CantClimbTom:

Is option 1 not bulkier, heavier and potentially warmer than option 2? While it sounds like a decent system in some circumstances it seems like overkill for a 'just in case' bit of kit.

In reply to CantClimbTom:

Is option 1 not bulkier, heavier and potentially warmer than option 2? While it sounds like a decent system in some circumstances it seems like overkill for a 'just in case' bit of kit.

In reply to James0101:

When blizzard bags came out I wondered how effective so had a trial night out in the garden.

Middle of winter and at the end of a cold snap so probably down to minus 8 but no wind.

Went out at usual bed time with only what I would normally carry on a Scottish  winter climbing day plus the blizzard bag. Wore all clothes plus waterproofs. Slept  OK, no shivering, only waking to let out a bit of condensation and rub cold feet. Got up at 6.30 as usual  to make a flask and butties before an hours commute to work for 8 start. Made some light bivi boots .

Practice makes for knowledge and confidence in your kit. Sleeping OK on the trial night suggested that it would be survivable with a bit of shivering and spooning in a colder more exposed situation.

Smug answer, expecting a few dislikes.

FWIW , atm me and the missus are having a relearning curve on backpacking food and sleeping systems. 60 years in and still stuff to refine.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Not at all Rick, great answer. I had no idea they were that effective, I'm off to buy one!

In reply to James0101:

As well as the blizzard products there is a range from at least Lifesystems and SOL. Various bags with some more thermal and breathable as well as heat reflective. All relatively light and cheap. Bought a selection to try but not got further than opening to bag to have a peek atm though I have carried the lightest bag on bike and hill days as emergency gear  for a few years trusting the photo on the packaging that it was fit for purpose.

In reply to DaveHK:

Expect not to like it but have some respect for how effective it is. Sweaty, noisy,  hard to unpack first time then hard to repack neatly.

In reply to DaveHK:

I spent a 2/3rds of a night in one at -5, predominantly out the wind, but with fresh snow, with a Bothy bag on top and ropes underneath and hadn’t even started to shiver by the end. They come in Bothy bag made a difference stopping the spindrift/snow getting in.

They come in two weights essentially equivalent to two season or three. 

On remote outings I take one and my partner takes the other. So at least we both have some form of emergency shelter, and combined they increase the survivability if whoever is in trouble.

In reply to Rick Graham:

top effort, this is great science.

what does this mean? 'Made some light bivi boots'

the anecdote i heard about blizzard (blankets in this case), was a lower leg casualty on Blà Bheinn traverse who was wrapped up for 6 hours waiting for rescue. whilst the rest of the party became hypothermic they regularly had to open the blanket to stop them overheating

In reply to James0101:

It's smaller, perhaps lighter and more packable than a blizzard bag (I own a blizzard 3 layer) and more flexible as you can also use the liner as a liner at other times so dual use. Certainly it's more re-packable which is a limitation of blizzard, even if you happen to have Henry the hoover with you in your bivi 🤣, I don't find they repack at all well - but that's completely secondary in emergency. If you had a more substantial liner than this OMM one r, then it'd start to weigh and bulk more than the blizzard and be pointless 

The "design" of 2 foil bivi bags and a liner, is my own half baked idea. The intention is to keep a still layer trapped between the foil and also keep that dry as the inner acts as a vapour barrier.

Carried this myself but thankfully not used (yet!)

In reply to James0101:

Only use one medium  thick pair of socks in my winter boots. If on a lie down bivi usually take off for better blood circulation. ( Keep on for harness hang bivi, fortunately only had a few of these, just slacken lacing ) 

lots of insulation on except for feet.

On test night only had socks plus bread bag (family loaf size polybag ) on each foot. 

After test night made foot shape out of lightweight closed cell foam and duct tape = bivi boot.

Lighter and warmer, mark 3 is out of some synthetic wadding  and bread bag combo. Toasty

In reply to Rick Graham:

You're supposed to take the bread out, Rick. Don't want marmalade on your socks!

(Heartened to notice that predictive text suggested Marmolada.)

In reply to Ian Parsons:

I am still addicted with cheese and marmalade sandwiches for days out. Took me 50 years to realise that having my apple orange banana and chocy bars in a separate bag  stopped , and it was always the apple , getting inside one of the sarnies.

So top tip. Eat the bread, save the bag for multiple uses on the hill. Whats the best thing since sliced bread, the bag!

In reply to MrTumnus:

A lot of good advice on this thread, the inevitable bivi caused by the weight of the bivi gear carried etc.

I made a half bag from a damaged ME lightline, and used it with a down jacket. It came up to the armpits and had some braces to keep it in position. It was very light and worked well.

I believe PhD do something similar for those without sewing skills 

In reply to DaveHK:

Whilst I get the general thrust of "don't start if you're not up to it"; it's not the only reason benightments happen.

Being stuck behind slow people, unexpected weather, injury, accidental loss of kit, stuck rope - there are endless ways that a nice steady long day out can turn into something a bit more epic.

So a survival bag, spare gloves and hat and alight mat.  You can get half length down bags that work with a down jacket

In reply to MrTumnus: last time I got benighted was because of complexities on the decent , and not wanting to thus do a river crossing in the dark.  In that case belay jacket ,  bothy bag and sitting on the rucksack back did the job down to freezing. 

I can think of routes where I would not want to descent d in the dark.  In that case I'd probably add  2 season down bag as its tiny.  

You can forget combinations of foil and liners 

In reply to Moacs:

Agreed but for unexpected overnight or emergency I would just make sure that a hat and sub 100g SOL or Lifesystems bag was available.

Extra down gear is only for preplanned bivis.

Also know how to stay dry when the benightment site requires you to stay belayed.  

(Prussik loop outside bag around big knot or hex to harness inside bag. )