UKC

Hi all,

I currently have a Rab Latok jacket and a pair of ME Salopettes.

The Rab jacket was new but the salopettes 2nd hand. THe Jacket is nice but I sweat a lot and when I go walking or climbing in rain/snow I get wet inside from sweat. Also the Salopettes now just leak even after reproofing.

I was wondering whether Paramos would be worth getting as I heard both great and bad points about them

Cheers

In reply to Chownsy:

Most of the criticism I've heard of Paramo is from fashionistas slagging of its unfashionable cut, most of the praise has been from seasoned professionals; I listened to the latter and have not been disappointed.

In reply to Chownsy:

The newer style jackets like the enduro are miles ahead in terms of fit from the older designs.

Expensive but worth it imho.

Okay brilliant, will go try some on.

Whats the maintenance on them like as it works different to most if i read right.

In reply to Chownsy:

I've been a paramo fan for over ten years. Huge improvement on breathability!
Maintainance is straightforward: just periodically wash in soap flakes or tech wash and reproof with tx direct when it needs it. This will be more often than a membrane needs it but not too frequently. Mine is probably an annual affair.
Holes are easily stitched and then forgotten.

My only issues are with the cut which can be baggy (so much so I've just bought a soft shell for more casual use) and the fact it isn't as waterproof as a membrane.
I have been wet in mine but it does dry quickly and I am dryer overall than mates in membrane based wetproofs as the breathability is much better.

In reply to Chownsy:

I've never owned any but I have borrowed jackets and legs a few times. I find it all a bit too warm for high activity except in the colder of (uk) winter conditions but I tend to run warm compared to many people. In the cold though I have found it excellent for day walks in both rain and snow. If you are going to be bivvying or tenting and putting it back on wet in the morning it feels a bit dank and soggy til you warm it up which seems to take a while until you get moving; more so than putting back on a wet typical hard shell. I haven't tried any of the more recent stuff but I would never have wanted to climb in the ones I tried. The jackets seemed baggy and the pants a little restrictive in some ways

In reply to angry pirate:

You say you have been wet in yours, How heavy/prolonged was the rain for this to happen?

I think you have virtually made my mind up on them. I will keep my hardshell too as it nice, the trousers was the main reason for getting Paramo as mine now leak seem to not want to reproof very well.

In reply to Chownsy:

If you're used to eVent, goretex etc, then the lack of rustle/blatter when wearing Paramo if you're out in the wind makes for, in a non pervy way, a sensuous experience. I'd never realised how bin liner-y goretex was until trying Paramo.

I tried the lightest of the Paramo jackets 3 years ago. I forget the name of it, but it was way too hot for summer use, if you run hot when habitually travelling fast- and that's with all zips undone and vented maximally. When the weather's a bit cooler it's OK. If you do get sweaty in it then, its not a clammy wetness, more a body temperature wetness.

In reply to Chownsy:

It doesn't really fit fast or light in any way at all.

In reply to Chownsy:

Have a look through this post for diverse opinions.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=600442

Personally Paramo was a disaster for me but most of my club like it.

In reply to Chownsy:

I've bought all mine second hand, quick wash in Tech wash and reproof with TX direct (litre of each for £7:50 from Tesco just now if you use clubcard boost thingy), works great. Was out in really heavy rain the other day with my "new" fuera jacket, grinning like a big numpty as I admired how well it was beading.

In reply to Chownsy:

Depends on how hot you run. I used to have a fair bit of paramo kit which was great for winter but useless in summer for me, but I sweat buckets when it is above freezing. If you run a bit colder then it is great.

Not for me, but brilliant if it suits.

In reply to Chownsy:
You've got a Hardshell, so nothing to lose bt experimenting with paramo too and see how you get on with it. Me, I'm a fan.

The fact that your expensive hi tech salopettes leak doesn't say much for them does it?

In reply to Siward:


Do you mean the cheap (I assume) at second hand (definitely) salopettes described in the OP?

Paramo is definitely marmite. Except I like marmite. The system seems to depend on wearing twice as much as is comfortable in any benign conditions in the (admittedly realistic) hope that it rains icy slush so the suffocating warmth can mask the soggy clutch of your sodden insulation. You will be wearing about a kilo more in fabric which, when wet through, will weigh twice as much again, amplifying your discomfort. The vents are meant to counteract the fug but they just mean your legs boil red-hot on one side and red raw on the other while your trousers flap like Scottish prayer flags (praise the Gods for a dry walk-in!) behind you. And once it rains, the vents must stay closed. I'm oot!!

In reply to Chownsy:

Best waterproof jacket I've ever owned. The extra weight is a minimal consideration in return for a jacket which really is waterproof - I can even carry my iPhone in an inner pocket in pouring rain without worrying about it getting wet - something that Goretex doesn't always achieve.

OK in summer it can get bit hot, but you only need to wear a thin wicking T shirt under. The occasional wash in Tech wash and TX Direct 2/3 times a year is no problem.

In reply to Chownsy:

They weigh 1.5 to 2x a comparable Goretex partly down to baggy cut and wide seams and loads of zips etc but also that it has 2 layers of materials.

It 'works' on the basis that rain can get through the outer layer, the only thing stopping it is the DWR coating which soon wears down and the Nikwax "Waterproof" wash in. But this doesn't really stop it in heavy rain. Then the inner layer absorbs sweat and any moisture coming through from outside, spreads it out, and your body heat evaporates it and ""hopefully"" pushes it back out.

In reality you end up with some dampish patches but it is very comfortable. Sounds daft but really it is, the soft material and any damp being warm.

Too heavy for summer but great for other 3 seasons.

In reply to Chownsy:

The 2 key things are what you will use it for and whether you 'run hot'.

I think they're too hot for summer. I see folks using them but they tend to be old and moving slowly. If they were buffalo the wolves would be keeping a sharp eye on them.

For winter in the snow the salopettes are superb but I've been seriously let down by them in the rain. There's something funny going on with the waterproofing or peoples perceptions of it as some folks say they're the only thing that keeps them dry and others say that they leak like sieves regardless of how often they're reproofed.

In reply to Hyphin:


This is because your seasoned outdoor professionals spend a lot of time standing around.

In reply to Chownsy:
Used a Cascada jacket and trousers for the last 15 years and with regular washing and reproofing they are as good as new.Wouldnt go back to Goretex,over priced and useless. Most MRTs use Paramo. Most problems with people saying it leaks is down to people leaving the neck open and not using the hood ,water usually goes downwards.

In reply to Chownsy:

So I was a big fan of the salopettes, jackets just don't fit me, until I went out in a training walk in the brecon beacons in heavy rain and 70 mph winds. They failed completely and I mean useless. Now I'm thinking of ditching them because I just don't trust them. That said they are good for Scottish winter ( dry)

In reply to Chownsy:

It has to be pretty nasty: all day torrential stuff really and mainly at wear or pressure points like under rucksack straps.
By way of comparison, I wore a paramo Nevada smock and hardshell trousers on the Pennine way a number of years ago in the summer. We had the obligatory three days of torrential rain and my trousers failed addressing top half stayed dry except for where the base layer wicked up from my wet pants (not nice btw)
Paramo is warm for summer but it does vent well and I roll the sleeves up too if I get warm but tbh it's never really been a problem.
The stuff is marmite, as said before, but I wouldn't go back to hardshell now.

In reply to DaveHK:



This description made me chuckle, thanks!

In reply to afshapes:

I think the combo of traditional shell and paramo trousers is a poor one for wet conditions. The shell sheds water onto the trousers very rapidly which then wet through. The paramo jacket on the other hand absorbs water so it doesn't run onto the breeks so quickly.

In reply to DaveHK:

Yeah on this particular night the water dripping from my jacket was the least of my worries!

In reply to Chownsy:

The one time that Paramo is too hot is if you're doing something high activity in the sun at valley level, where you should really be wearing a T-shirt. On the hills in summer, you just wear it (all day) straight over your base layer, and as it's comfortable you get an all-day wicking/windproof/waterproof second layer. The high breathability stops you from getting wet from sweat, which sounds like what you want from a new jacket? In winter, you obviously just start adding extra layers.

I've been kept warm and dry in horrific conditions in my Paramo, where otherwise I'd expect to be as wet inside from sweat as outside from rain. It has lasted me 15 years, and is now starting to fail so I'm about to get a replacement. I'm reasonably happy with that lifespan!

I think the number of climbers, guides and MRT that use Paramo mean that the naysayers - whilst they may not like the system - can't justifiably argue it's "too hot" for the UK

In reply to climbwhenready:
You know that 'too hot' means different things to different people and that some people sweat more than others? It's not that some folks are wrong when they say paramo is too hot, it's just that it's too hot for them in the activity they do. Different strokes for different folks.

Also, note that all the groups you mention spend a lot of time standing around in the cold!

In reply to Chownsy:

On the too hot bit...depends what you wear an Aspira smock in summer would be suicidal, but a fuera jacket is like a light summer shirt with pit zips!

In reply to DaveHK:


Usually waiting for me which is maybe why I like Paramo too

In reply to Hyphin:

I got too sweaty in my Hardshell in wales the other week but I got soaked legs from the salopettes leaking and wet top half from sweat. All I had on was a wicking base layer top and a T-shirt plus the jacket. Trousers I just had my Mammut base jumps on and the Salopettes.

I want something that will keep me reasonably dry over how I currently am where I get back from a walk and I am more wet from the sweat and I just cant then get comfy. I dont mind if it leaks but dries quickly.

I seen videos where people can cycle in Paramo and stay dry but I think it was a lightweight version.
This is the video : youtube.com/watch?v=s51N_MAmvyQ&

In reply to Chownsy:

would ditch the salopettes, in summer I wear light nylon trousers (any old make, craghoppers atm but have had others) they dry quick in even a light breeze. Obviously if in torrential rain, low temp and significant wind chill they'd be uncomfortable but even this summer hasn't been cold enough for that to be much of an issue. I sometimes carry a pair of lightweight waterproof trousers, full side zips: had so much use I can't remember the make.

In reply to Chownsy:

The t-shirt if it was cotton would have held onto the sweat more than any other kind of material would.

In reply to Timmd:

The wicking underlayer was soaked. It could not get the water out through the hardshell or the hardshell was leaking but when I have done a shower test (yes I showered in my hardshell when I thought it was leaking) I found it was not leaking that I could see.

In reply to Hyphin:

It was torrential rain, was up in Tryfan when they forecast the thunder storms last week. I usually go with lightweight walking trousers but it was too wet for these.

In reply to Chownsy:
What was the t-shirt made from?

If it was cotton, then the moisture would have been held onto by the t-shirt for quite a long time, and the under layer would have been soaked. That's what you'd expect to happen under a cotton t-shirt.

In reply to PATTISON Bill:

Most MRTs use Paramo. ......

No a lot of teams have changed over to Mountain Equipment Kongur, but the reflective strip on that peals off, or to Keela.

Paramo have stopped making the old style Aspira with black / red which was great not to show dirt round the cuffs and shoulders. Now it is the Aspira Pro which is all red.

We have all, well I assume all teams, been issued with Paramo lightweight windproof jackets but they are definitely not waterproof.

The big front pocket of the Aspira collects loads of water, I suspect sweat since there are far to many layers from the inside of it to the outside. Paramo will leak where anything press against it, ie rucksack straps, its fundamental to the concept as there is no membrane.

In reply to Chownsy:

Very good. With reproofing they last forever. Yes, a bit heavy in the summer.

In reply to m0unt41n:

We have Keela in the ambulance service and its okay but very bulky.

It seems that Paramo is indeed very very Marmite.

Okay the next best question would be what to get then as I sweat a lot and I end up wetter and stickier than what I would do if I just had no water proof on.

The wicking top was synthetic and the T-shirt was polyester/cotton mix.

In reply to Chownsy:

I use Paramo and have my own Aspira as well as my MR one for the colder half of the year. I wear it with an Icebreaker T, short or long sleeve depending how cold. The Icebreaker is really comfortable even when wet from sweat or rain.
I find all Polyester T shirts uncomfortable, cold and clammy when damp, quickly smelly. Merino wool just seems magical. Cool when its hot, warm when its cold, never smells, comfortable when damp. Only drawback is that it takes a long time to dry.

In reply to Chownsy:



I run hot. I sweat buckets in the gym.

I currently get by with just a thin base layer in the hills with a TNF Pursuit jacket over if it is windy or there is anything more than light drizzle. I have found it to be a cheap, decent jacket and reasonably light. The hood seems a bit crap when you try them on but it sits fine with a pack holding shoulders down, not tough enough for climbing at all I would think but I have gone arse over tit a few times in it and its without a scratch.

Currently baselayers favourites are a Rab Interval t shirt or a Saucony Active Fit running top. I'd never wear something like a polycotton shirt as I would just drench it and it doesn't add anything. It is a personal thing though. I wouldn't consider wearing more under the jacket until it got down around freezing while I was moving or only taking short rests.

I've been using that combo for about 3 months, mostly around N Wales, and haven't had issues with getting wet from inside in the wet summer we have had and I am probably out 3 days a week in all sorts on average. Including the mental stormy downpours and the sticky drizzle before. This is probably because I wear little underneath and keep moving as much as the shell itself. I have got wet a couple of times in the torrential stuff that has forced through the hood/down the back of the zip and so on but that would have happened with anything. I have also managed to walk myself dry reasonably quickly.

I rarely carry over-trousers unless I know it is going to hammer down all the time. Even then I would probably just suck it up in the summer. The over-trousers I currently like are my Montane Astro Ascents. They are nowhere near light but they fit me well enough to be happy just wearing them over some light running leggings when it is cool. I have various light weight shell pants I could take but I generally don't bother.

I've got quite a few bits of clothing I have collected over the years. And I have worn some favourites into the ground. I'm currently happiest with a jacket that was only £90. I reckon I will get a year to 18 months out of it as it is a lightweight going off similar event/hyvent stuff I have killed.

In reply to Chownsy:


If you sweat that much then forget about a waterproof, nothing will deal with that sort of sweat. Just wear a baselayer and a windproof on your top half and forget about waterproofs on your legs. Just make sure you have a warm layer and something waterproof for when you stop.

In reply to Chownsy:

for sweaty betties like me paramo jackets are terrific. only downside is warmth and weight but as a winter solution they're ideal. the new ones for much trimmer though u may be the person the old ones fit perfectly....

may try the trousers this year.

In reply to alasdair19:

I've just bought me a haglofs goretex pro jacket and marmot goretex trousers to see how I get on with and going to go try on paramos when I next get up to go outdoors.

Cheers everyone for the advice and I hope I can keep dry during these nice heavy downpours we keep getting.