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I am thinking about making the leap from Gore-tex shells to the paramo principles. Anyone any comments on how effective Paramo is for winter climbing, instructor work and general day to day stuff on the hills?
In reply to rick:
Talking to Jim in the Barn Door Shop the other day he said definitely Paramo. Goretex/Triplepoint are coatings on top of a fabric, and the coating will eventually wear away losing performance. Paramo works by proofing the material, and as long as you keep the Nikwax up to scratch there should be no problems. That seems to be the theory. Think I'll go Paramo next time.
Talking to Jim in the Barn Door Shop the other day he said definitely Paramo. Goretex/Triplepoint are coatings on top of a fabric, and the coating will eventually wear away losing performance. Paramo works by proofing the material, and as long as you keep the Nikwax up to scratch there should be no problems. That seems to be the theory. Think I'll go Paramo next time.
In reply to rick: I'm a convert I think my Paramo salopettes are ideal for winter climbing. I recommennd they get a wash and reproof at the end of the season though....
In reply to rick:
Depends how hot you run. For a lot of people, Paramo's fine. I run very hot anyway, so the fact that the shells are thicker than normal means that if you run hot anyway, you'll sweat buckets in Paramo. I did some gear testing for them earlier this year. wearing one of their reverisble shirts as a base layer, as recommended, the only time I didn't feel overheated in the jacket was when doing hardly any "work" at all, when the weather was cold (ie, around minus 5, plus cold breeze, no pack, strolling gently on Ashdown Forest with little elevation change.
At zero, going slightly uphill with a day sack on, I was overheating. Bear in mind that if going up to, say, Stob Coire nan Lochan from Glencoe, in minus 5 with a winter climbing sack on and a rope, I'd happily walk up in a short sleeve thin ACL base layer and still be warm, just sticking my shell layer on if we stopped.
Horses for courses. There's no "one-solution-fits-all".
Depends how hot you run. For a lot of people, Paramo's fine. I run very hot anyway, so the fact that the shells are thicker than normal means that if you run hot anyway, you'll sweat buckets in Paramo. I did some gear testing for them earlier this year. wearing one of their reverisble shirts as a base layer, as recommended, the only time I didn't feel overheated in the jacket was when doing hardly any "work" at all, when the weather was cold (ie, around minus 5, plus cold breeze, no pack, strolling gently on Ashdown Forest with little elevation change.
At zero, going slightly uphill with a day sack on, I was overheating. Bear in mind that if going up to, say, Stob Coire nan Lochan from Glencoe, in minus 5 with a winter climbing sack on and a rope, I'd happily walk up in a short sleeve thin ACL base layer and still be warm, just sticking my shell layer on if we stopped.
Horses for courses. There's no "one-solution-fits-all".
In reply to rick:
I've been looking into Paramo too as an alternative to Gortex, etc. One of the staff I spoke to in CCC (Sheffield) confirmed that the stuff is great, however that some of his colleagues had noticed leaks when wearing a harness and gear. Apparently it can leak at "pressure points" in heavy rain.
Anyone else heard this?
I've been looking into Paramo too as an alternative to Gortex, etc. One of the staff I spoke to in CCC (Sheffield) confirmed that the stuff is great, however that some of his colleagues had noticed leaks when wearing a harness and gear. Apparently it can leak at "pressure points" in heavy rain.
Anyone else heard this?
In reply to Michael Hunt:
Apparently the pressure point leakage is one of the issues with Paramo - the way the system works leaves any direct contact with a wet surface as an inherent weakness. It is the reason that some of the trousers and jackets come with thin foam inserts to act as a barrier between the wet surface and you. This is not supposed to affect the overall "comfort" of the jacket as apparently you will stay warm and any water is soon wicked away. But this is the leap of faith that I am struggling to overcome
Apparently the pressure point leakage is one of the issues with Paramo - the way the system works leaves any direct contact with a wet surface as an inherent weakness. It is the reason that some of the trousers and jackets come with thin foam inserts to act as a barrier between the wet surface and you. This is not supposed to affect the overall "comfort" of the jacket as apparently you will stay warm and any water is soon wicked away. But this is the leap of faith that I am struggling to overcome
In reply to rick:
It's also a lot of money to spend on a leap of faith!
I really like the idea of Paramo gear but think I'll wait until the problem gets sorted (perhaps the next generation of Paramo?).
It's also a lot of money to spend on a leap of faith!
I really like the idea of Paramo gear but think I'll wait until the problem gets sorted (perhaps the next generation of Paramo?).
In reply to rick: i don't use the stuff myself, but the problems of pressure will not get sorted because its down to the way the fabrics work, that said it will dry very fast and the breathability is better than any fabric out.
As a notoriously cold person ( i get hypothermia regularly on climbing trips) i think my new paramo smock is great. I stay warm and dry in it all the time, and have rarely been seen outdoors in it in the last 2 months. I say give it a try.
In reply to ceri: The Paramo principle is imho extremely good. The Nickwax Analogy material is warm totally wind and waterproof and very comfortable and breathable. There is a problem with pressure point leakage but I have only experienced this in real extreme wet weather. I would recommend the fabric for all uses. Rather than Paramo you should check out Cioch Direct which is made by a small family business on Skye. It is the same fabric that Paramo use but I think better designed and made. I bought a jacket from them last year and have just added the sallopettes. I have used both in extremes of wet summer conditions and full scottish winter weather and they are truly excellent. You also feel like you are buying a relationship with the company as they will repair any damage you can do to your kit at a reasonable price. I heard of 1 guy who set fire to the arm of his jacket and they replaced the arm for him. By the way that wasn't me and I have absolutely nothing to do with the company just really like their kit. Go on support small UK manufacturers.
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In reply to rick: It seems a bit like switching to wearing a Buffalo shirt rather than all the layers. Lets face it, in heavy rain your sweat will still soak you using Goretex, it's impossible to remain totally dry in UK wet conditions.
In reply to rick: The on line consensus seems to be that the trousers and salopettes are raved about, especially for winter and ski stuff but the jackets have more mixed reviews. It is much easier to swop around top layers though.
In reply to MICKLEDORE:
I think you will find that Goretex is a fabric or membrane that is sandwiched between other layers of fabric, it is not therefore a coating.
As to Paramo, I wore some of the original stuff for a couple of seasons in Scotland. Worked ok till it got wet from the inside out but even then remained comfortable. Never really got on with it myself and retired it to the motorbike till I got round to buying a rain suit.
I think you will find that Goretex is a fabric or membrane that is sandwiched between other layers of fabric, it is not therefore a coating.
As to Paramo, I wore some of the original stuff for a couple of seasons in Scotland. Worked ok till it got wet from the inside out but even then remained comfortable. Never really got on with it myself and retired it to the motorbike till I got round to buying a rain suit.
In reply to rick: I used to work in a shop in Keswick and got to try quite a lot of Paramo products. After one winter season I was a convert and now use the salopettes and smock. Not so sure about their base layer type stuff tho. Any moisture that builds up inside quickly disappears, and you cant go wrong with something that can be sewn up if you damage it. Might be a bit warm in the summer.
In reply to rick: Wore an aging gore-tex jacket on a v.wet day doing rope work on a crag next to a guy in equally aged Paramo. I was wet to the skin and he bone dry.I acquired a set the following week. Unsurpassed in winter/cool conditions - still too hot/heavy for summer (despite the pit zips, roll up sleeves, douyble zips, reversible shirts). It's cheaper too! Go for it. Roger
In reply to rick: I use Paramo salopettes with a Montane Extreme smock for winter climbing. I find this extremely warm but also very breathable. My normal use is to walk in with a the paramo salopettes, gortex jacket and a light HH t-shirt as I have a tendency to run hot on the move. When I get to the climb I stick on the Montane smock and I never chill out on a belay. If conditions are very extreme I'll stick my gortex on top to minimize wind chill.
The salopettes were made custom for me at Cioch in Skye, total cost £100 in 1998. I made sure their was a waterproof patch in the bum so I didn't get damp after a sit down, it's also excellent for bum slides down places like Broad gulley. If I could do one thing to improve my set up it would be to have extra vents put in the salopettes to line up with the side vents in the Montane smock. I had a Paramo jacket but I found it too hot and a bit bulky.
As I said I find this a good combination except when conditions get clement on the hill then I sweat buckets, even so when this does happen both the Paramo and the smock dry out just as fast when I stop for any length of time.
Hope this is useful.
Eddie
The salopettes were made custom for me at Cioch in Skye, total cost £100 in 1998. I made sure their was a waterproof patch in the bum so I didn't get damp after a sit down, it's also excellent for bum slides down places like Broad gulley. If I could do one thing to improve my set up it would be to have extra vents put in the salopettes to line up with the side vents in the Montane smock. I had a Paramo jacket but I found it too hot and a bit bulky.
As I said I find this a good combination except when conditions get clement on the hill then I sweat buckets, even so when this does happen both the Paramo and the smock dry out just as fast when I stop for any length of time.
Hope this is useful.
Eddie
In reply to rick:
I've got a Paramo 3rd dimension jacket - the one that you can take apart, and it's fantastically waterproof. WAs stuck on a the Cniefon Ridge for a couple of hours in driving rain back in December, and after a full day out of appalling weather was drizabone. I generally just wear a patagonai t-shirt underneath and if cold weather a paramo reversible mountain shirt which I've also found to be really good both in warming and cooling modes.
I've got a Paramo 3rd dimension jacket - the one that you can take apart, and it's fantastically waterproof. WAs stuck on a the Cniefon Ridge for a couple of hours in driving rain back in December, and after a full day out of appalling weather was drizabone. I generally just wear a patagonai t-shirt underneath and if cold weather a paramo reversible mountain shirt which I've also found to be really good both in warming and cooling modes.
In reply to Horse:
I too was impressed that it keeps you dry for a long time and remains comfortable even when it is damp right through - It seems to share this with double ventile which I rate very highly. I've never got on well with the creaky stiff goretex/symatex etc as I just don't like the feel, sound or touch of it.
If I could afford it at the moment I'd get some Cioch or Paramo salopettes too , but will have to stick to double Regatta trousers for the mo
I too was impressed that it keeps you dry for a long time and remains comfortable even when it is damp right through - It seems to share this with double ventile which I rate very highly. I've never got on well with the creaky stiff goretex/symatex etc as I just don't like the feel, sound or touch of it.
If I could afford it at the moment I'd get some Cioch or Paramo salopettes too , but will have to stick to double Regatta trousers for the mo
In reply to rick: Not used it myself but everyone I know who has 'invested' in it thinks it is good except one friend last week. We had a very very wet cold day on Cadair Idris and he was disappointed to find he was wet through in his brand new Paramo trousers. Mind you so was I in the Goretex! Perhaps the real answer is not to expect to stay dry when the weather is at its worst. Most of the wonder fabrics don't work at their best in the worst very wet cold and windy British weather.
In reply to Offwidth:
http://www.cioch-direct.co.uk/pages/home.html
as an idea of service they modded one of their hats for our son on spec while we waited (added a fleece chinstrap with velcro fastening)
http://www.cioch-direct.co.uk/pages/home.html
as an idea of service they modded one of their hats for our son on spec while we waited (added a fleece chinstrap with velcro fastening)
In reply to michaelw: Used paramo salopettes for a couple of years and loved how comfortable and warm they were but did suffer with the pressure point problem mentioned earlier when climbing in wet conditions. This could be a problem with rucksack straps? Still not found the perfect shell layer. I'm thinking of trying the North face Hy-vent stuff as this appears to cheap enough to trash and replace each year. Anyone else tried it?
In reply to Chrispy: I had the pressure point problem with rucksack straps - once the (thin) coating on the outside of the fabric degraded a bit (stopped beading), water seeped through the shoulders. Reproofing improved things but didn't last very long. Got to the stage of needing reproofing after virtually every trip.
I'd also echo the too-hot comments above. For changeable british weather, I'd rather have my insulation and waterproof layers separate. Also found that the jacket felt bulky and awkward when worn over a fleece. I've since bought a Mountain Equipment Drilite (I think) jacket and will not be buying another Paramo.
Pete
I'd also echo the too-hot comments above. For changeable british weather, I'd rather have my insulation and waterproof layers separate. Also found that the jacket felt bulky and awkward when worn over a fleece. I've since bought a Mountain Equipment Drilite (I think) jacket and will not be buying another Paramo.
Pete
In reply to rick:
if you can dry stuff out at the end of a day then paramo might be ok but I thought the fabric absorbed quite a lot of water over a an extended trip.I use Lowe alpine's triplepoint ceramic now which works wonders in winter when i wear a buffalo underneath. As with most kit if you pay a lot for it then its unlikely to be terrible there will only be small differences.
jamie l
if you can dry stuff out at the end of a day then paramo might be ok but I thought the fabric absorbed quite a lot of water over a an extended trip.I use Lowe alpine's triplepoint ceramic now which works wonders in winter when i wear a buffalo underneath. As with most kit if you pay a lot for it then its unlikely to be terrible there will only be small differences.
jamie l
In reply to jamie l: IMHO paramo works far better than any gore/triplepoint system- in effect you stay warm and comfortable regardless of the weather, and they dry out very fast- totally soaked from sliding down wet snow- dry as a bone half an hour later. Great pice of kit. One final note- I took a spinner off may bike this morning and slid a few feet across tarmac in my paramo- a few scratches but not one hole, no gore jacket would survive that- the lack of any membrane/laminate to stiffen the fabric makes it extremely durable with the softness of a sweatshirt- great stuff.
In reply to rick: I had an Aspira smock for a while.Very warm, but I do run "hot" and water can easily be"forced"through. I tested some products for Paramo and sweated buckets in the reversible shirt I had. Thought it may be an alternative to pile/pertex but alas not for me.Now use Montane Extreme smock or Buffalo Teclite smock depending on temp with a light waterproof for downpours...
In reply to rick:
I've been wearing Paramo gear for the past 6 years.
CONS...it has to be regularly treated to keep it waterproof - it is just too damn bulky.
PROS...Paramo are fair-trade (some of the profits go back into schools etc.. in South America). It is hard wearing.
I've been wearing Paramo gear for the past 6 years.
CONS...it has to be regularly treated to keep it waterproof - it is just too damn bulky.
PROS...Paramo are fair-trade (some of the profits go back into schools etc.. in South America). It is hard wearing.
In reply to alan: Accepted it's bulky- but in the winter it makes up for both the shell and fleece layer so works out fractionally lighter overall, that said the apsira is a bit over-featured, the velez smock is very good and simpler/lighter
In reply to alan:
Really? I've always thought my Cascada trousers are quite possibly the best piece of kit I own, but I like them even more now!
> PROS...Paramo are fair-trade (some of the profits go back into schools etc.. in South America).
Really? I've always thought my Cascada trousers are quite possibly the best piece of kit I own, but I like them even more now!
In reply to Sophie Leatherbarrow:
I didn't know that either!
Got the Velez top, works about right for me and doesn't get as sweaty as a conventional waterproof/thin insulating layer combination when moving fast uphill - just nicely covers the case where it's drizzling miserably, you'd be soaked with sweat in a waterproof and thin fleece, slightly too cold without the fleece and too wet without the waterproof. It does end up smelling fairly rank after a few days of this, but then so does anything else.
It does, however, *need* to be washed and reproofed regularly. If you don't, you get wet.
I didn't know that either!
Got the Velez top, works about right for me and doesn't get as sweaty as a conventional waterproof/thin insulating layer combination when moving fast uphill - just nicely covers the case where it's drizzling miserably, you'd be soaked with sweat in a waterproof and thin fleece, slightly too cold without the fleece and too wet without the waterproof. It does end up smelling fairly rank after a few days of this, but then so does anything else.
It does, however, *need* to be washed and reproofed regularly. If you don't, you get wet.
I n reply to everyone:
I'm Glad this thread has resurfaced cos it coincides with me trying to make a decision on the stuff. When this first appeared I was actually in the process of trying to convince myself of switching to one or other 'bioactive' style system, whether buffalo or paramo, 'cos I’m so pished off with the goretex jackets that I’ve had.
I've already decided to go ahead with a pair of paramos's trousers at least, 'cos i need them the most.
The only trouble is I’m having second thoughts about the Aspira Salopettes being the seemingly obvious choice since I intend them to be mainly my winter climbing 'battle kit' and occasional double as skiing or snowboarding gear.
However it occurred to me suddenly that at £180 big ones i would quite rightly be wanting them to serve all year round, albeit fully ventilated if its for use in mild (warmish) rainy weather like we get on summer days that go crap over here.
So the Question is do I get the salopettes most suited for winter and the rest of the time look like a prat, be over dresses and have more of a overheating problem 'cos of the higher front etc, OR...., buy the trousers which will be lighter, won't force me to have a least a 'double layer' (bib plus shirt) covering most of my upper body and save £30!
The last thing I want is to spend £150, use them the first time, and wish/discover why i should have bought the salopettes instead. So, what are all the other reasons for using salopettes over trousers as well as the obvious ones?
All tips gratefully received no matter how small or silly! (Its' a lot of dosh at stake! and I want/need to make a decision soon!)
Ta much.
Jonny.
I'm Glad this thread has resurfaced cos it coincides with me trying to make a decision on the stuff. When this first appeared I was actually in the process of trying to convince myself of switching to one or other 'bioactive' style system, whether buffalo or paramo, 'cos I’m so pished off with the goretex jackets that I’ve had.
I've already decided to go ahead with a pair of paramos's trousers at least, 'cos i need them the most.
The only trouble is I’m having second thoughts about the Aspira Salopettes being the seemingly obvious choice since I intend them to be mainly my winter climbing 'battle kit' and occasional double as skiing or snowboarding gear.
However it occurred to me suddenly that at £180 big ones i would quite rightly be wanting them to serve all year round, albeit fully ventilated if its for use in mild (warmish) rainy weather like we get on summer days that go crap over here.
So the Question is do I get the salopettes most suited for winter and the rest of the time look like a prat, be over dresses and have more of a overheating problem 'cos of the higher front etc, OR...., buy the trousers which will be lighter, won't force me to have a least a 'double layer' (bib plus shirt) covering most of my upper body and save £30!
The last thing I want is to spend £150, use them the first time, and wish/discover why i should have bought the salopettes instead. So, what are all the other reasons for using salopettes over trousers as well as the obvious ones?
All tips gratefully received no matter how small or silly! (Its' a lot of dosh at stake! and I want/need to make a decision soon!)
Ta much.
Jonny.
In reply to belfast_jonny: Personally I'd go salopettes every time, they stay up better, stop snow getting under your jacket and avoid that cold patch that develops at the base of your spine with pants. For warmer use I seem to remember that you can unzip the legs but leave them poppered together for ventilation- any warmer and I just wear ronhills and get wet legs!!
In reply to vscott:
Ta. thats the kind of thing i was wondering about.
I'd wondered about the 'cold kidneys' kinda thing from experience of trousers (and from wearing wetsuits oddly enough.)
anybody got anything else?
Ta. thats the kind of thing i was wondering about.
I'd wondered about the 'cold kidneys' kinda thing from experience of trousers (and from wearing wetsuits oddly enough.)
anybody got anything else?
In reply to belfast_jonny: I've got the salopettes but having only worn them a few times.. those times they worked superbly though!!
They do seem to be pretty easy to ventilate though with the zips/poppers.. but I would think they would be very tricky with gloves on!
I wore them with a Montane Extreme smock and they kept me nice and toasty...
They do seem to be pretty easy to ventilate though with the zips/poppers.. but I would think they would be very tricky with gloves on!
I wore them with a Montane Extreme smock and they kept me nice and toasty...
In reply to FunkyNick:
Ta.
Have you worn them in milder (but sometimes wetter if you know what i mean) weather yet, without getting sweaty in the chest and back area?
Plus, does everyone seem to agree that they do/can keep you dry and comfortable toghether with just a buffalo big face shirt system for eg (plus another buffalo/paramo style smock for heat if ness) in the foulest wet whether, sans a traditional gore shell?
Ta.
Have you worn them in milder (but sometimes wetter if you know what i mean) weather yet, without getting sweaty in the chest and back area?
Plus, does everyone seem to agree that they do/can keep you dry and comfortable toghether with just a buffalo big face shirt system for eg (plus another buffalo/paramo style smock for heat if ness) in the foulest wet whether, sans a traditional gore shell?
In reply to belfast_jonny: It was fairly mild low down last weekend around Cairngorm, and on the walk in I got kinda sweaty on top, but I would say that was cos I was wearing my Montane top... I would probably have been better off with just a thermal!!!
No problem with being sweaty on my legs though!
As for just using a Montane/Buffalo style top and Paramo salopettes, it kept me plenty warm enough once we got into the snow, didn't need to add any more layers, unlike some of the others I was with. I did get quite wet one day though, as we were playing around in the snow, but didn't feel it at all.
No problem with being sweaty on my legs though!
As for just using a Montane/Buffalo style top and Paramo salopettes, it kept me plenty warm enough once we got into the snow, didn't need to add any more layers, unlike some of the others I was with. I did get quite wet one day though, as we were playing around in the snow, but didn't feel it at all.
In reply to Sophie Leatherbarrow: yep, all hand made by columbian ex-whores. quality.
In reply to FunkyNick:
Ta all.
Think I'll stick with my first instinct, and go for the salopettes.(unless anyone can Convince me other wise! have to be quick though!:P )
Ta all.
Think I'll stick with my first instinct, and go for the salopettes.(unless anyone can Convince me other wise! have to be quick though!:P )
In reply to belfast_jonny:
I've just ordered a pair of Paramo sallopettes - but the ones made by Cioch direct. They offer an option where they're designed to be adjustable fitting ski boots and narrower climbing boots, and they're made to measure to your own spec for about the same price.
they've yet to arrive - but the company seems excellent so far.
I've just ordered a pair of Paramo sallopettes - but the ones made by Cioch direct. They offer an option where they're designed to be adjustable fitting ski boots and narrower climbing boots, and they're made to measure to your own spec for about the same price.
they've yet to arrive - but the company seems excellent so far.
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