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Sticky Rubber

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Jon 18 Apr 2005
Just wondering if there might be any rubber experts (!)reading this. I'm trying to find out a bit about the composition of the sticky rubber that is now used in all climbing shoes.

I'm sure the exact formulae used by the top makes are closely guarded secrets, but this stuff has been around since 1982 (boreal were the first I think) so I was hoping someone out there might have rough idea what the magic ingredient is.

This is for a uni essay about high friction materials, any help would be very useful! Cheers
imprisoned climber 18 Apr 2005
In reply to Jon: a random fact. the first route in the uk to be put up with sticky rubber shoes was masters wall. by jerry moffet in 1980 something. see extremem rock for detail.

p.s. i know that didn't ansewer you question.
 Nic's Bloke 18 Apr 2005
In reply to Jon:

http://www.brma.co.uk/

try these people, thay may be able to put you in contact with someone in the know!
Jon 18 Apr 2005
In reply to Nic's Bloke:Cheers I'll try that. It seems to be virtually impossible to get hold of any info from manufacturers that might be seen as comercially sensitive, very frustrating!

Just to reiterate- I'm not looking for the recipe for the latest top of the range shoes, just a rough idea what makes sticky rubber different to normal rubber.

Has anyone ever tried climbing the same route with sticky and non-sticky rubber shoes? is the difference really all that dramatic?
Longhead 18 Apr 2005
In reply to Jon: unforunately i have looked into this myself and there aren't many people out there to help, each dealer tends to say their rubber is the stickyest but won't divulge why or how! I'd be interested in the results if you come up with anything!
 Richard 18 Apr 2005
In reply to Jon:

Is it anything like the rubber in squash balls? They seem to have many similar properties (although climbing shoe rubber may be much more hard-wearing, I suppose).

Have you tried looking for patents? I think it costs a bit to look them up, but they should contain the information you're looking for (if they exist).
 Aly 18 Apr 2005
In reply to imprisoned climber: When did he do Ulysses? I thought that was one of the first routes he did with 'sticky' rubber.
 Smelly Fox 18 Apr 2005
In reply to imprisoned climber:
I think it was actually "sole power" at frogatt, but I may be wrong.
hang 'em high 18 Apr 2005
Isn't there some connection between sticky rubber climbing shoes and the rubber used to make F1 tyres?
Hotbad Peteel 18 Apr 2005
In reply to Jon:

The only bit of info i've seen is in the intro section of the purple font circuits guide. The rubber is impregnated with some kind of resin to make it sticky. The technology is related to racing car tyre rubber. Sticky rubber doesn't work btw if you have dirt on the shoe, like dust or chalk as the rubber doesn't touch the rock so that would be the same as climbing with normal rubber (i.e. not that difficult). If you properly squeak your boot by spitting on your hand cleaning the toes of your shoe and rubbing and smearing them til their fully clean and actually making a loud squaking noise you'll find out how sticky the boots can be. There is a massive difference.
Pete
Jon 18 Apr 2005
Good call about the patents - I'll let you know if I find anything!
Hotbad Peteel 18 Apr 2005
In reply to Jon:

you can search for patents for free I think. I'm sure the US patent office is free and that might come up with any 5.10 patents. Boreal might have some in the french patent system
Pete
 Graham T 18 Apr 2005
In reply to Jon:
Don't know if this will help, i haven't got a subscription to look
http://climbing.timeoutdoors.com/kit/3CLMTJE01091502E.htm
Jon 18 Apr 2005
In reply to Graham T: Thanks for the tip, this is what it had to say about the different types of rubber:

"Spanish sticky rubber at one end of the continuum is an under-cooked rubber that uses its glue-like properties to hold you on the rock. Typically used on Boreal boots under the name Fusion. Great for friction but it can wear fast on rough rock.

U.S.A. memory rubber developed by Five.Ten and called Stealth 4. It wraps round and grips individual crystals on the rock, providing excellent friction and lasts well.

Italian rubber made by Vibram is a mix of the best of both the USA and Spanish. It has good memory and edging but it's also sticky. Called Megabyte by Scarpa and also used by Red Chilli and La Sportiva."

Unfortunately I am looking for slightly more technical information than "under-cooked"! Hopefully there is someone out there who works in the rubber industry!?

Oh and just a note before you all rush out and buy Italian shoes - the article was written by a bloke who works for Scarpa!


 Richard 18 Apr 2005
In reply to Jon:

> Unfortunately I am looking for slightly more technical information than "under-cooked"! Hopefully there is someone out there who works in the rubber industry!?

My guess - although it's been ages since I did any polymer chemistry - is that by "under-cooked" they mean "not highly cross-linked".

(Apologies if you already know all of this).

A rubber gets its properties from is structure - a 3D tangle of long-chain polymers. In synthetic rubbers, these chains are joined together at random points along their length by "cross-linking" - molecular bonds formed between chains. The commonest process for doing this is called Vulcanization, and uses sulphur to form these links. Natural rubbers are generally not crosslinked, but the molecules are so tangled that the effect is the same.

The elastic properties arise from the ability of the tangled molecules to straighten and slide past each other under stress, and re-crinkle (to a higher-entropy form) on relaxation. Obviously this is limited by the amount of cross-linking, and if a rubber is very highly cross-linked it is hard and will crack easily (tyre rubber, for example, will increasingly (although slowly) cross-link on exposure to UV, which is why tyres go crumbly eventually). It is also affected by the amount of "free space" inside the rubber - how tightly packed the molecules are together. If they're very tightly packed, they cannot move easily and untwist. To mould rubber, then, it is heated (which gives the molecules more energy to move) and often a plasticiser is added. This is a chemical which sits around the molecules and effectively provides lubrication. The plasticiser should evaporate out at some point in the process.

So my guess is that these rubbers have been "under-cooked" during the moulding process, resulting in incomplete cross-linking and residual plasticiser. This would leave the rubber a little "tarry" to the touch.

Hopefully that helps (and is vaguely right).
 Jon Greengrass 18 Apr 2005
In reply to Jon: I heard that the first sticky rubbers for rockboots were developed using recylced aircraft tyres. I'm sure they are exactly the same as any other friction rubber used on a car motorbike, jumbojet, bicycle etc.

Can i please have some current season F1 tyre rubber for my boots so i can climb upside down without hands please.
mike swann 18 Apr 2005
In reply to Jon Greengrass:
> Can i please have some current season F1 tyre rubber for my boots so i can climb upside down without hands please.

You already do!
 stuartf 18 Apr 2005
In reply to mike swann:

Did you know that if you could accelerate an F1 car up to its normal speed then the down-force (or lift in this case!) provided by the wings would be enough to let you drive it over the ceiling? Wouldn't be as good at cornering as when it's the right way up mind you...

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