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What's people's opinion of the trend for using fell running trainers as walking footwear? Or very stripped down lightweight boots? While I do go with the superlight philosphy overall my feet is one area where I won't go without the extra protection offered by a decent pair of boots.
How does everyone else feel about this?
How does everyone else feel about this?
In reply to Craig Geddes:
For me, it depends on the terrain I'm going to be walking on. Generally, the more serious the terrain, the heavier the footwear. Having said that, some people do the Cuillin Ridge in trainers.
For me, it depends on the terrain I'm going to be walking on. Generally, the more serious the terrain, the heavier the footwear. Having said that, some people do the Cuillin Ridge in trainers.
In reply to Craig Geddes: Chris Townsend swears by this approach.
I'm used to wearing trainers in the hills, but I'd be careful, suddenly changing from boots to trainers may be an issue. You may have to slowly build your ankles up.
I'm used to wearing trainers in the hills, but I'd be careful, suddenly changing from boots to trainers may be an issue. You may have to slowly build your ankles up.
In reply to IainRUK: I'm not about to change, injured my ankle's years ago. I wear superlight's at work but that's about it. THis is more along the lines of a debate.
In reply to Craig Geddes: It's personal choice. I've heard/seen people say/write that it is unsafe. I bet I've done half of my munros to date (120+) in trainers. That's including winter.
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer.
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer.
In reply to Craig Geddes: I used my Montrail CTCs http://www.jackson-sports.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=5573 a lot in Norway this summer, doing hillwalks/scrambles bigger than Ben Nevis in them. It was a good experience as they protected my feet yet were nice and light. The only thing is you may well get wet feet although its not the end of the world. I've used very light Inov8 running shoes in the hills as well but I find that on very rocky ground - lots of scree etc - they don't protect my toes enough. If you are walking for three hours uphill to do a really special climb the last thing you want it to hurt your toes so that you can't put your rockshoes on.
In reply to IainRUK:
pretty much what i was going to say.
Craig sees this 'trend' happening now, whereas many people have worn lightweight shoes for years.
the only thing i find funny is when you run past a group in whe hills and they give you the classic 'trail/TGO look'
- ie. where are your big protective boots?, where is your 50 litre pack?, where are your walking poles?, where is your big goretex jacket?
they look at you as if they think you are very unsafe being in the mountains with such strimmed down kit.
> (In reply to Craig Geddes) It's personal choice.
> I don't think there is a right or wrong answer.
> I don't think there is a right or wrong answer.
pretty much what i was going to say.
Craig sees this 'trend' happening now, whereas many people have worn lightweight shoes for years.
the only thing i find funny is when you run past a group in whe hills and they give you the classic 'trail/TGO look'
- ie. where are your big protective boots?, where is your 50 litre pack?, where are your walking poles?, where is your big goretex jacket?
they look at you as if they think you are very unsafe being in the mountains with such strimmed down kit.
Most of the time I think heavier leather boots are overkill, esp if you are on good paths. I have a lightweight pair of Meindl fabric boots that I use for most walking. The one thing I ve noticed that if you get wet feet you freeze - was on Dartmoor in Jan on a really wintery day and really suffered. Wearing a heavier leather boot definitely helps in this respect.
In reply to Craig Geddes: Over the past 2-3 years all my walking has been done in fell running shoes. If it is really wet then I put a pair of waterproof socks on.
The only downside is that on *really* rocky ground your feet feel every stone by the end of the day.
The only downside is that on *really* rocky ground your feet feel every stone by the end of the day.
In reply to satori:
Hehehe - very true. You stroll past and they look on in amazement...
>
> they look at you as if they think you are very unsafe being in the mountains with such strimmed down kit.
> they look at you as if they think you are very unsafe being in the mountains with such strimmed down kit.
Hehehe - very true. You stroll past and they look on in amazement...
In reply to satori:
I'm aware that's an ongoing thing, by trend I just meant that you are seeing increasing amounts of lightweight footwear and running shoes in walking/climbing shops
the classic 'trail/TGO look'
To be fair to TGO their gear editor advocates Inov8 trainers or sandals for most things.
> Craig sees this 'trend' happening now, whereas many people have worn lightweight shoes for years.
I'm aware that's an ongoing thing, by trend I just meant that you are seeing increasing amounts of lightweight footwear and running shoes in walking/climbing shops
the classic 'trail/TGO look'
To be fair to TGO their gear editor advocates Inov8 trainers or sandals for most things.
In reply to Craig Geddes: My last post is not ment to be as confrontational as it sounds, sorry!
In reply to IainRUK:
Quite agree. I used to be a firm believer in boots and nothing but boots, until I tried a gentle outing in the Cairngorms in trainers. It was lovely - much less weight hanging on my legs, and a much greater feel of freedom. I'd still stick to boots on big days and difficult terrain, but trainers work well for a lot of days.
> I don't think there is a right or wrong answer.
Quite agree. I used to be a firm believer in boots and nothing but boots, until I tried a gentle outing in the Cairngorms in trainers. It was lovely - much less weight hanging on my legs, and a much greater feel of freedom. I'd still stick to boots on big days and difficult terrain, but trainers work well for a lot of days.
In reply to Craig Geddes:
didn't sound confrontational. lol
to add further to the 'no right or wrong answer' theme i'd go on to say that i treat my footwear pretty much as i do all my other kit when deciding what to take.
- i look at the conditions, i look at what i'm trying to achieve on the day and decide what would be appropriate kit to use.
for my feet this may range from fell shoes up to vegas with all sorts in between.
the one thing i do try is to select the lightest footwear that is suitable for the job.
so, i'm not going to wear my inov8s to try and ice climb and i'm not going to wear my cumbres or SLs if i want to run a circuit through the peak.
> (In reply to Craig Geddes) My last post is not ment to be as confrontational as it sounds, sorry!
didn't sound confrontational. lol
to add further to the 'no right or wrong answer' theme i'd go on to say that i treat my footwear pretty much as i do all my other kit when deciding what to take.
- i look at the conditions, i look at what i'm trying to achieve on the day and decide what would be appropriate kit to use.
for my feet this may range from fell shoes up to vegas with all sorts in between.
the one thing i do try is to select the lightest footwear that is suitable for the job.
so, i'm not going to wear my inov8s to try and ice climb and i'm not going to wear my cumbres or SLs if i want to run a circuit through the peak.
In reply to TobyA: I find, and I have a knock now, that I don't get protection of the ankle bone. On scree I catch the ankle bone and then it just keeps getting cut again. Last week it ended up quite swollen as I was running in the hills/quarries most nights so kept catching the joint.
I was out last night doing a fell/trail run around beddgelert/nantmor region and couldn't quite see enough even with a headtorch and caught the joint again.
I was out last night doing a fell/trail run around beddgelert/nantmor region and couldn't quite see enough even with a headtorch and caught the joint again.
In reply to IainRUK: Have you tried one of these very light fabric boot-trainery things? When we were in Norway Dave was using a pair of Montrail boots that can't have been much heavier than the shoes I have.
I think they are these: http://www.montrail.com/Product.aspx?prod=30&cat=140&top=1
And they now do a high top version of mine:
http://www.montrail.com/Product.aspx?prod=24&cat=140&top=1
I think they are these: http://www.montrail.com/Product.aspx?prod=30&cat=140&top=1
And they now do a high top version of mine:
http://www.montrail.com/Product.aspx?prod=24&cat=140&top=1
In reply to Craig Geddes:
I do go out in the mountains in very light footwear and it is great in many ways, but it is also undoubtedly riskier, and I like to try to remember this and be extra careful. Crush injuries to the feet are very common in places like the Cuillin; if you get such an injury and your lightweight approach has extended to your clothing/survival gear, you can easily end up in a pretty dire situation.
I do go out in the mountains in very light footwear and it is great in many ways, but it is also undoubtedly riskier, and I like to try to remember this and be extra careful. Crush injuries to the feet are very common in places like the Cuillin; if you get such an injury and your lightweight approach has extended to your clothing/survival gear, you can easily end up in a pretty dire situation.
In reply to Jimmy D: Very true, descending while on your own is very different to how you would in a race with marshalls and others about.
A fell runner died in the Cuillin a few years back, he got an ankle injury and died of exposure, so the threat is very real.
A fell runner died in the Cuillin a few years back, he got an ankle injury and died of exposure, so the threat is very real.
In reply to Craig Geddes:
I trotted round the Snowdon horseshoe the other week in a pair of 5.10 Cragmasters. I felt much more confident moving over rocky ground knowing they wouldn't slip. If I'd been in 3/4 season boots I'd have had less confidence in the vibram soles and would probably had a few slips. My legs and knees were surprisingly fresh at the end of the day and I didn't have the sore toes I usually get from movement in a heavy boot.
Having said that, I've had the same experience of catching stones and scree on my ankles in low cut footwear in the past and it can be damn painful.
I'v heard an argument that you're MORE likely to turn an ankle in a boot than a shoe but can't follow why this should be?
5.10 no longer make the Cragmaster and mine are in their old age. What's the nearest equivalent?
I trotted round the Snowdon horseshoe the other week in a pair of 5.10 Cragmasters. I felt much more confident moving over rocky ground knowing they wouldn't slip. If I'd been in 3/4 season boots I'd have had less confidence in the vibram soles and would probably had a few slips. My legs and knees were surprisingly fresh at the end of the day and I didn't have the sore toes I usually get from movement in a heavy boot.
Having said that, I've had the same experience of catching stones and scree on my ankles in low cut footwear in the past and it can be damn painful.
I'v heard an argument that you're MORE likely to turn an ankle in a boot than a shoe but can't follow why this should be?
5.10 no longer make the Cragmaster and mine are in their old age. What's the nearest equivalent?
In reply to Dux: The problem with a boot is it holds your ankle for you. Sometimes you can flip out of a hold wearing trainers, the boot may hold you there lading to a damaged ankle. The freedom to move the ankle joint can be a great help.
In reply to tony:
Trainers (or rather something like fell-running shoes) are ideal for the Cuillin Ridge. Yes you have to look where you put your feet but that means that you tend not to cause as much erosion as if you were wearing big boots where you can clatter into stones at will. The main reasons though are that they are much lighter and less tiring and that they are much more tactile making you surer footed.
Ultimately what you wear on your feet is down to the terrain/weather and where you are/what you are doing, though I suspect that many people do not realise just how light you can be without sacrificing much in the way of either comfort or safety.
boB
Trainers (or rather something like fell-running shoes) are ideal for the Cuillin Ridge. Yes you have to look where you put your feet but that means that you tend not to cause as much erosion as if you were wearing big boots where you can clatter into stones at will. The main reasons though are that they are much lighter and less tiring and that they are much more tactile making you surer footed.
Ultimately what you wear on your feet is down to the terrain/weather and where you are/what you are doing, though I suspect that many people do not realise just how light you can be without sacrificing much in the way of either comfort or safety.
boB
In reply to IainRUK:
Can you confirm what you mean by 'winter' before I call you a loony?
M
> (In reply to Craig Geddes) It's personal choice. I've heard/seen people say/write that it is unsafe. I bet I've done half of my munros to date (120+) in trainers. That's including winter.
>
>
Can you confirm what you mean by 'winter' before I call you a loony?
M
In reply to matt25: Full snow and ice.
I turned back on Buichaille etive beag less than 200 yards from the summit as I thought it was too dicy.
I also turned off a round of glenshee in March 2004 as the first munro was bagged in one foot of powder snow and high winds, I decided that the full day planned was too much in those conditions.
Must say though my trainers were bending out of my crampons in point five on the Ben! Very dodgy!
I turned back on Buichaille etive beag less than 200 yards from the summit as I thought it was too dicy.
I also turned off a round of glenshee in March 2004 as the first munro was bagged in one foot of powder snow and high winds, I decided that the full day planned was too much in those conditions.
Must say though my trainers were bending out of my crampons in point five on the Ben! Very dodgy!
In reply to IainRUK: Last remark may be bullshit.
In reply to matt25:
I did a lot of my Bob Graham training in winter conditions wearing Nike 381s with SealSkinz socks. On occasions I was in snow up to my knees, though most of the time it would be ankle deep. one run we started in pouring rain, climbed through sleet and into snow on the tops - going out to Steeple was positively alpine. The only time it was worrying was if I came across sheet ice with a covering of snow though usually you could tell beforehand.
boB
I did a lot of my Bob Graham training in winter conditions wearing Nike 381s with SealSkinz socks. On occasions I was in snow up to my knees, though most of the time it would be ankle deep. one run we started in pouring rain, climbed through sleet and into snow on the tops - going out to Steeple was positively alpine. The only time it was worrying was if I came across sheet ice with a covering of snow though usually you could tell beforehand.
boB
In reply to IainRUK:
I don't how I found it, must have been googling for something else but I saw an online adventure racing shop the other day where they were selling crampons specially designed for going on trainers. You should get yourself a pair!
Do you carry an ice axe in case you slip?
> I turned back on Buichaille etive beag less than 200 yards from the summit as I thought it was too dicy.
I don't how I found it, must have been googling for something else but I saw an online adventure racing shop the other day where they were selling crampons specially designed for going on trainers. You should get yourself a pair!
Do you carry an ice axe in case you slip?
In reply to TobyA: Kahtoola's?
I'm getting a pair, found a UK supplier finally!
Re the ice axe, depends, of I'm running generally no, but i'm getting a light weight ski mountaineering axe so I can. My general climbing axes are too heavy.
We are pretty careful though, and more than willing to cut a day short, so pick runnable routes or turn back. For example I ran Ben Chronzie in snow almost in the dark, but its basically a 4 wheel drive track and a broad shoulder to the summit, so there's no technical sections.
Some days/peaks running isn't an option and we fully accept that.
The good thing about running is those boring walks, are enjoyable runs, so we see different areas that we would when we walk. For example Llanberis path is a boring 5 mile plod, but as a run its a nice, steady climb for an hour to the summit.
I'm getting a pair, found a UK supplier finally!
Re the ice axe, depends, of I'm running generally no, but i'm getting a light weight ski mountaineering axe so I can. My general climbing axes are too heavy.
We are pretty careful though, and more than willing to cut a day short, so pick runnable routes or turn back. For example I ran Ben Chronzie in snow almost in the dark, but its basically a 4 wheel drive track and a broad shoulder to the summit, so there's no technical sections.
Some days/peaks running isn't an option and we fully accept that.
The good thing about running is those boring walks, are enjoyable runs, so we see different areas that we would when we walk. For example Llanberis path is a boring 5 mile plod, but as a run its a nice, steady climb for an hour to the summit.
In reply to IainRUK: This was a British site, I just can't remember the name...
In reply to IainRUK: Do your feet not get freezing in trainers? Do you go for the waterprrof socks? Out orienteering the other weekend at Blair atholl, a wee bit snow around and part of the course was out on the hillside. With all the water sitting in the bogs after about 30mins I couldn't feel my feet or legs up to my knees and that was only at about 300m and I was probably going faster than I would going up a hill.
In reply to Anita: Not really, I don't wear waterproof socks either (starting to think about doing so). For some reason I get very cold hands, yet my feet are Ok when I'm running. Naturally any bogs to hurt for a short period, but rapidly warm up.
In reply to Craig Geddes:
Off topic I realise, but make sure you tell your Ann I think her work is great.
BTW how does she get those babies to do all that stuff?
Off topic I realise, but make sure you tell your Ann I think her work is great.
BTW how does she get those babies to do all that stuff?
In reply to karl walton: Duck tape and a big pointy stick. Those double sided sticky labels can be very helpfull as well for getting the right expression. Or a stapler if she's in a hurry.
In reply to Craig Geddes:
Excellent!¬)
Excellent!¬)
In reply to Craig Geddes:
Would you have been asked this before by any chance?
Would you have been asked this before by any chance?
In reply to karl walton: I've been asked if I'm related to her before but no-ones ever asked a question quite like that one.
First time had me completly confused as I had no idea who the woman was, had to google her. She's probably related but quite distantly.
First time had me completly confused as I had no idea who the woman was, had to google her. She's probably related but quite distantly.
In reply to Craig Geddes:
Good response anyway mate.
Good response anyway mate.
In reply to IainRUK:
Yeah, thought so, you are a loony. I've rarely been on a mountain in winter where trainers were a viable option. Well, I guess it's your own choice but if you snuff it it's your own fault, I just hope no-one gets hurt trying to bring your body out.
Matt
Yeah, thought so, you are a loony. I've rarely been on a mountain in winter where trainers were a viable option. Well, I guess it's your own choice but if you snuff it it's your own fault, I just hope no-one gets hurt trying to bring your body out.
Matt
In reply to matt25: Why? I'd consider winter mountain running less risky than soloing. OK we both may slip. Like a soloer I work on the basis that I won't slip. If I did then I may be in trouble.
'I've rarely been on a mountain in winter where trainers were a viable option'
Which ones? I can name many which are fine, its all about route choice. Knowing the terrain, the weather, the past weather and my own or groups ability.
Out of interest, say the Lochnagar munros(check out the lochnagar run on our webpage), why should I need any specialist gear here?
As I've said before, people should put more emphasis on their own suitability for the hills rather than the suitability of their gear.
Where would a fall result in the need of an ice axe?
To me the only risk is cold feet, which I don't suffer from touch wood.
I'm up on the 3000ers at least a few times a week. Never had an issue. I may have less success but that's a risk. Tonight I may run up Glyder Fawr after work, or is that too loony like.
There may be a chance I could be injured on the hills but I'd say as much chance as anyone else.
'I've rarely been on a mountain in winter where trainers were a viable option'
Which ones? I can name many which are fine, its all about route choice. Knowing the terrain, the weather, the past weather and my own or groups ability.
Out of interest, say the Lochnagar munros(check out the lochnagar run on our webpage), why should I need any specialist gear here?
As I've said before, people should put more emphasis on their own suitability for the hills rather than the suitability of their gear.
Where would a fall result in the need of an ice axe?
To me the only risk is cold feet, which I don't suffer from touch wood.
I'm up on the 3000ers at least a few times a week. Never had an issue. I may have less success but that's a risk. Tonight I may run up Glyder Fawr after work, or is that too loony like.
There may be a chance I could be injured on the hills but I'd say as much chance as anyone else.
In reply to Anonymous: http://www.fastandlite.co.uk/store/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=219
Never used the shop, but was given the link off here I think. Only place I've seen in the UK, before this I was going to import some and pay the costs.
Never used the shop, but was given the link off here I think. Only place I've seen in the UK, before this I was going to import some and pay the costs.
In reply to IainRUK:
Have you thought about trying one full foot snow stud attachments? I fancy trying them out, although they may not be much use on cold hard ice, but a lot lighter than lugging a pair of G10s around. E.g. http://www.theoutdoorshop.com/Outdoor/ProductDetails.aspx?language=en-GB&am...
> (In reply to Anonymous) http://www.fastandlite.co.uk/store/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=219
>
> Never used the shop, but was given the link off here I think. Only place I've seen in the UK, before this I was going to import some and pay the costs.
>
> Never used the shop, but was given the link off here I think. Only place I've seen in the UK, before this I was going to import some and pay the costs.
Have you thought about trying one full foot snow stud attachments? I fancy trying them out, although they may not be much use on cold hard ice, but a lot lighter than lugging a pair of G10s around. E.g. http://www.theoutdoorshop.com/Outdoor/ProductDetails.aspx?language=en-GB&am...
In reply to IainRUK: Those look excellent for those days where you don't think you'll need your spikes but figure you better take them anyway. A damn sensible idea.
In reply to johnsdowens: We've looked at insteps and there's a few types of spikes around. Really they are only suitable for flat ground, so think I'll opt for the aluminium Kahtoolas. They wear down quickly supposedly but we wouldn't use them much really, so reckon we'd get a good few years wear.
In reply to IainRUK:
Hmm, I wonder if we polled M.R.T. members how many of them would agree with you? After all they'd be the ones that would have to deal with the mess. As it doesn't affect me I guess you can do what you like.
I just thought that as there may be others, perhaps people with limited experience, reading this forum , I'd put forward my own view that wearing trainers in real winter nick on Scotlands mountains is irresponsible in the extreme. Like I say, it's just my opinion, do what you like.
Matt
Hmm, I wonder if we polled M.R.T. members how many of them would agree with you? After all they'd be the ones that would have to deal with the mess. As it doesn't affect me I guess you can do what you like.
I just thought that as there may be others, perhaps people with limited experience, reading this forum , I'd put forward my own view that wearing trainers in real winter nick on Scotlands mountains is irresponsible in the extreme. Like I say, it's just my opinion, do what you like.
Matt
In reply to Craig Geddes:
A pal of mine did The Runnel in trainers late one winter. His dog followed him up it.
I bought a pair of Innov8 Flyrocs this summer in order to have something suitable for an approach and light enough to clip onto the back of my harness when climbing. I've found them very good.
A pal of mine did The Runnel in trainers late one winter. His dog followed him up it.
I bought a pair of Innov8 Flyrocs this summer in order to have something suitable for an approach and light enough to clip onto the back of my harness when climbing. I've found them very good.
In reply to Craig Geddes:
Walsh PBs everytime, no matter what the conditions. Just don't go with people who aren't running, or you get cold feet.
HD.
Walsh PBs everytime, no matter what the conditions. Just don't go with people who aren't running, or you get cold feet.
HD.
In reply to matt25:
You are confusing risk with consequence.
The risks of wearing fell-running shoes in the mountains in winter are probably no greater than wearing full mountain boots if the conditions are suitable, and not every day *is*.
There are days when wearing fell-running shoes is sensible for the quick mover and days when it isn't. I've been out in "lightweight" shoes when I have been more comfortable than I would have been in *proper* boots despite the conditions apparently dictating the latter. Yes, there are potentially more serious consequences to travelling ultra light (bum-bag with lightweight top and trousers and maybe a mars bar) but risk is part of the game.
If travelling in the mountains so lightly laden was so high risk and irresponsible then I would expect there to be a high number of fatalities amongst such protaganists. The figures show that in over 100 years of fell races there have been just five deaths. Granted not all races are in winter but many are run in poor conditions and snow is not uncommon. Outside organised races I can only think of one fatality in the last few years - last year as it happened.
boB
You are confusing risk with consequence.
The risks of wearing fell-running shoes in the mountains in winter are probably no greater than wearing full mountain boots if the conditions are suitable, and not every day *is*.
There are days when wearing fell-running shoes is sensible for the quick mover and days when it isn't. I've been out in "lightweight" shoes when I have been more comfortable than I would have been in *proper* boots despite the conditions apparently dictating the latter. Yes, there are potentially more serious consequences to travelling ultra light (bum-bag with lightweight top and trousers and maybe a mars bar) but risk is part of the game.
If travelling in the mountains so lightly laden was so high risk and irresponsible then I would expect there to be a high number of fatalities amongst such protaganists. The figures show that in over 100 years of fell races there have been just five deaths. Granted not all races are in winter but many are run in poor conditions and snow is not uncommon. Outside organised races I can only think of one fatality in the last few years - last year as it happened.
boB
In reply to matt25: have you much experience of Scottish Mountains?
Think outside of the west coast as well, but even then the right route...
I would say its more judgement than luck that there are so many runners out in the hills in winter and so few accidens.
Some are perfectly runnable in most conditions, as I said it's just about picking the route for the conditions. Sometimes though you turn back, you even put on big boots and walk like everyone else.
Think outside of the west coast as well, but even then the right route...
I would say its more judgement than luck that there are so many runners out in the hills in winter and so few accidens.
Some are perfectly runnable in most conditions, as I said it's just about picking the route for the conditions. Sometimes though you turn back, you even put on big boots and walk like everyone else.
In reply to matt25: TBH I don't think I travel that light weight for a fell runner.
A standard pack that I run with contains:
GPS
Whistle
Torch
Compass
Map
Space Blanket
1st Aid Kit
Rab VR smock
Berghaus Paclite Jacket
500 mls water
Food
thin gloves
Dachsteins
Balaclava
While wearing a thermal top, running leggins, pair of inov8's.
In most weather conditions, I've been out down to -13 in this kit, I can manage fine. I'd say thats as much gear as most other people in the hills.
A standard pack that I run with contains:
GPS
Whistle
Torch
Compass
Map
Space Blanket
1st Aid Kit
Rab VR smock
Berghaus Paclite Jacket
500 mls water
Food
thin gloves
Dachsteins
Balaclava
While wearing a thermal top, running leggins, pair of inov8's.
In most weather conditions, I've been out down to -13 in this kit, I can manage fine. I'd say thats as much gear as most other people in the hills.
In reply to matt25:
I wonder if you polled MRT members, how many of them go up hills by themself, in fell shoes, in the snow? More than half of our team, at a guess.
They're probably the most common footwear on rescues, too, which can take you into some pretty loose & rocky ground.
> Hmm, I wonder if we polled M.R.T. members how many of them would agree with you? After all they'd be the ones that would have to deal with the mess. As it doesn't affect me I guess you can do what you like.
I wonder if you polled MRT members, how many of them go up hills by themself, in fell shoes, in the snow? More than half of our team, at a guess.
They're probably the most common footwear on rescues, too, which can take you into some pretty loose & rocky ground.
In reply to matt25:
i don't have the statistics to hand (i'm not even sure if they exist) but i would hazard a guess that most people who are rescued each year are not the 'fast and light' people, but rather the 'all the gear and no idea' brigade.
having big boots and a 3-ply goretex does not ensure your safety in the hills.
as i mentioned waaaay up this thread. the footwear i take is appropriate to what i am attempting in the conditions on the day.
this can be fell shoes in snow.
to automatically think that you are safer when wearing big boots rather than racing shoes leads to complacency both in the planning and execution of your day in the hills.
> (In reply to IainRUK)
>
> Hmm, I wonder if we polled M.R.T. members how many of them would agree with you? After all they'd be the ones that would have to deal with the mess.
>
> Hmm, I wonder if we polled M.R.T. members how many of them would agree with you? After all they'd be the ones that would have to deal with the mess.
i don't have the statistics to hand (i'm not even sure if they exist) but i would hazard a guess that most people who are rescued each year are not the 'fast and light' people, but rather the 'all the gear and no idea' brigade.
having big boots and a 3-ply goretex does not ensure your safety in the hills.
as i mentioned waaaay up this thread. the footwear i take is appropriate to what i am attempting in the conditions on the day.
this can be fell shoes in snow.
to automatically think that you are safer when wearing big boots rather than racing shoes leads to complacency both in the planning and execution of your day in the hills.
In reply to Craig Geddes:
Guys,
I never said you can't use running shoes in snow, I'm more concerned about Ians apparent use of them in mountains covered in 'snow and ice'.
Ian, what makes you question my experience of the Scottish mountains? You seem pretty determined to let everyone know your own level of experience but that doesn't make you right. It just makes me more surprised at your attitude. To carry a space blanket, which are crap, in stead of a survival bag also seems a bit strange.
It seems that the mountaineering community lost two guys last week due to insufficient gear, I don't think its wrong of me to express concern over what I believe to be slightly mad behaviour, especially if you are encouraging it in others. The Scottish mountains ain't the Chilterns.
If you must know, I can't remember how many mountains I've climbed, but I've been doing it 25 years. Perhaps 60-70% of the time in winter. Outside the UK I've climbed mountains on 4 continents, in all types of conditions. I would never claim to be all knowing, but I reckon I have enough experience to have a valid opinion, worth expressing, when I think someones being a bit daft.
But, as I've already stated, it's your choice, do what you like. We'll just have to disagree on this one!
Matt
In reply to matt25: Just a couple of points, based on what you have posted.
1. I don't think Iain, Bob or Satori are saying that everyone should take their approach. It is based on experience, what suits them.
2. I don't think we know yet why the two guys died in the NC's, probably best not to second guess at present.
3. Looking at Iain's list of equipment, I was surprised how much he had actually. You criticise his use of foil blanket and suggets using a bivvy bag, personally I would not use either, prefering a bothy bag, but thats down to personal choice.
4. you will notice that Iain and others have said that it is not always appropriate to wear fell shoes, also that sometimes they turn around rather than run on ground they do not consider same. To me this shows a good understanding of the mountain environment.
1. I don't think Iain, Bob or Satori are saying that everyone should take their approach. It is based on experience, what suits them.
2. I don't think we know yet why the two guys died in the NC's, probably best not to second guess at present.
3. Looking at Iain's list of equipment, I was surprised how much he had actually. You criticise his use of foil blanket and suggets using a bivvy bag, personally I would not use either, prefering a bothy bag, but thats down to personal choice.
4. you will notice that Iain and others have said that it is not always appropriate to wear fell shoes, also that sometimes they turn around rather than run on ground they do not consider same. To me this shows a good understanding of the mountain environment.
In reply to Stormmagnet: I do use a bothy bag on longer trips, but the foil blanket can be left in as an emergency on shorter trips. I also got it to satisfy some race criteria.
In reply to matt25: Fair enough, I speak of my experience as too many people on here talk about this kit, that kit, when all they do is read gear reviews.
I am saying I am right, I believe I am, and many other people with trainers in winter are, safe in the hills. I'm not saying I won't ever be an MRT statistic, but accidents happen, but I would say that I am more aware of the dangers of my routes than most walkers. I asked for you to look at my blog to talk about certain routes. For me the I would attempt the Lochnagar run on most days of the year. The route held little danger apart from its length and exposure, there were few steep slopes, and most were avoidable.
I've been to three continents so you are one up. But I was going to run the Northern crossing of the central NZ North island Volcanoes last year, but after looking at web cams, deep snow, wind speeds it was too mcuh of a risk, so we drove out to a low lieing forest park and went for a two day run out there. However a few weeks later I was running in snow at 1500 m on a peak near Mt Cook as I knew the trail and conditions were OK.
There's actually very few days of a year where mountain running is unsafe, sometimes that just means getting to a col, that doesn't mean all routes are safe, or all mountains. Last night I decided the wind speeds were a bit on the high side so ran up quarry tracks onto Elidir Fach, which holds little danger, as the unstable rough scree may have been dodgy in those winds. Match the route to conditions.
I am saying I am right, I believe I am, and many other people with trainers in winter are, safe in the hills. I'm not saying I won't ever be an MRT statistic, but accidents happen, but I would say that I am more aware of the dangers of my routes than most walkers. I asked for you to look at my blog to talk about certain routes. For me the I would attempt the Lochnagar run on most days of the year. The route held little danger apart from its length and exposure, there were few steep slopes, and most were avoidable.
I've been to three continents so you are one up. But I was going to run the Northern crossing of the central NZ North island Volcanoes last year, but after looking at web cams, deep snow, wind speeds it was too mcuh of a risk, so we drove out to a low lieing forest park and went for a two day run out there. However a few weeks later I was running in snow at 1500 m on a peak near Mt Cook as I knew the trail and conditions were OK.
There's actually very few days of a year where mountain running is unsafe, sometimes that just means getting to a col, that doesn't mean all routes are safe, or all mountains. Last night I decided the wind speeds were a bit on the high side so ran up quarry tracks onto Elidir Fach, which holds little danger, as the unstable rough scree may have been dodgy in those winds. Match the route to conditions.
In reply to matt25: I asked how much experience as you were coming across as a climber, so thiking how I could go where you go in trainers, of course I wouldn't be in such an area in such gear.
In reply to matt25:
You are confusing winter mountaineering/ice climbing with the sport of mountain running. They are two very different sports for which very different kit is required. You may wish to re-read the posts and at least try to understand the difference between them. The other point is that proper fell-running shoes such as Walshes, Innov8s and others are not like a 'normal' trainer. They have far grippier soles which are designed for muddy/grassy/slippy terrain. Look at the soles on these and you will get the idea;
http://www.peteblandsports.co.uk/trolleyed/32/475/476/index.htm
> It seems that the mountaineering community lost two guys last week due to insufficient gear, I don't think its wrong of me to express concern over what I believe to be slightly mad behaviour, especially if you are encouraging it in others. The Scottish mountains ain't the Chilterns.
You are confusing winter mountaineering/ice climbing with the sport of mountain running. They are two very different sports for which very different kit is required. You may wish to re-read the posts and at least try to understand the difference between them. The other point is that proper fell-running shoes such as Walshes, Innov8s and others are not like a 'normal' trainer. They have far grippier soles which are designed for muddy/grassy/slippy terrain. Look at the soles on these and you will get the idea;
http://www.peteblandsports.co.uk/trolleyed/32/475/476/index.htm
In reply to dinkypen:
I've done Mount Whitney in sandals. But on Sunday on a Lakeland fell I had my Inov8's on....wish I hadn't as it was as boggy as hell. Did Tower Ridge this summer in my 5.10 approach shoes, perfect. Week before in Wales hiking boots.
Depends on conditions and terrain.
Mick
I've done Mount Whitney in sandals. But on Sunday on a Lakeland fell I had my Inov8's on....wish I hadn't as it was as boggy as hell. Did Tower Ridge this summer in my 5.10 approach shoes, perfect. Week before in Wales hiking boots.
Depends on conditions and terrain.
Mick
In reply to Dux:
Five Ten Prodigy. Brilliant. Available in the UK early 2007 I believe. Although there may be a few pairs knocking around. I love mine to bits.
Mick
> (In reply to Craig Geddes)
> 5.10 no longer make the Cragmaster and mine are in their old age. What's the nearest equivalent?
Five Ten Prodigy. Brilliant. Available in the UK early 2007 I believe. Although there may be a few pairs knocking around. I love mine to bits.
Mick
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Have you tried sealskinz?
I hadn't but thinking of doing so this christmas, depends what old father christmas drops down the chimney though.
Interesting Matt that you say the Highlands not the Chilterns. Well, in the past 6 years, I've lived right on the edge of the Highlands, on the edge of a mountainous area in NZ (Tararuas/Rimutakas), now live in the middle of Snowdonia, so I am out literally every week. So for 6 years, in whatever weather I have been out in mountainous terrain. So that's literally hundreds of days out in mountainous terrain, rarely wearing boots. Do you not think if it was mad I would have had more than a few accidents?
I hadn't but thinking of doing so this christmas, depends what old father christmas drops down the chimney though.
Interesting Matt that you say the Highlands not the Chilterns. Well, in the past 6 years, I've lived right on the edge of the Highlands, on the edge of a mountainous area in NZ (Tararuas/Rimutakas), now live in the middle of Snowdonia, so I am out literally every week. So for 6 years, in whatever weather I have been out in mountainous terrain. So that's literally hundreds of days out in mountainous terrain, rarely wearing boots. Do you not think if it was mad I would have had more than a few accidents?
In reply to IainRUK:
Do sealskinz really work against boggy ground, don't your feet just freeze because the rest of the shoe is soaked?
Another question, next year there's a 100km walk here, and also would like to have some lightweight 'trainers' - are these fell-running shoes also suitable for sustained walking, or will normal trainers be better? I also would like to be able to use them as well for some walking/easy scrambling as well.
And then - do people find a gore-tex XCR membrane usefull in trainers/fell running shoes, or is it too sweaty and not worth the expense? (gore-tex XCR trainers are about 85 quid here)
Do sealskinz really work against boggy ground, don't your feet just freeze because the rest of the shoe is soaked?
Another question, next year there's a 100km walk here, and also would like to have some lightweight 'trainers' - are these fell-running shoes also suitable for sustained walking, or will normal trainers be better? I also would like to be able to use them as well for some walking/easy scrambling as well.
And then - do people find a gore-tex XCR membrane usefull in trainers/fell running shoes, or is it too sweaty and not worth the expense? (gore-tex XCR trainers are about 85 quid here)
In reply to Arjen:
your feet may get cool, but they stay dry.
dry feet are always easier to keep warm than wet ones.
it depends on the terrain. if the 100km is on the fells or moors then yes.
another option is trail or adventure racing shoes.
these are lightweight, have more cushioning than fell shoes yet have a more agressive sole patterm than trainers.
- these are more suitable for mixed terrain including hard trails and a bit of road.
you can scramble easy stuff in the above but some approach shoes have better edges - the soles are stiffer. great for scrambling - not so great for running.
i never bother with goretex or xcr. not worried about the sweat - i just tend to run on wet ground, through steams that are above my ankles. if i had goretex the shoes would fill with water and it wouldn't be able to drain away!!!
xcr is probably cool if the worst you do is run through wet grass.
i use inov8 mudclaw fell shoes, flyroc trail shoes and salomon XA Pros.
> (In reply to IainRUK)
>
> Do sealskinz really work against boggy ground, don't your feet just freeze because the rest of the shoe is soaked?
>
> Do sealskinz really work against boggy ground, don't your feet just freeze because the rest of the shoe is soaked?
your feet may get cool, but they stay dry.
dry feet are always easier to keep warm than wet ones.
> Another question, next year there's a 100km walk here, and also would like to have some lightweight 'trainers' - are these fell-running shoes also suitable for sustained walking, or will normal trainers be better?
it depends on the terrain. if the 100km is on the fells or moors then yes.
another option is trail or adventure racing shoes.
these are lightweight, have more cushioning than fell shoes yet have a more agressive sole patterm than trainers.
- these are more suitable for mixed terrain including hard trails and a bit of road.
> I also would like to be able to use them as well for some walking/easy scrambling as well.
you can scramble easy stuff in the above but some approach shoes have better edges - the soles are stiffer. great for scrambling - not so great for running.
> And then - do people find a gore-tex XCR membrane usefull in trainers/fell running shoes1, or is it too sweaty and not worth the expense? (gore-tex XCR trainers are about 85 quid here)
i never bother with goretex or xcr. not worried about the sweat - i just tend to run on wet ground, through steams that are above my ankles. if i had goretex the shoes would fill with water and it wouldn't be able to drain away!!!
xcr is probably cool if the worst you do is run through wet grass.
i use inov8 mudclaw fell shoes, flyroc trail shoes and salomon XA Pros.
Thanks satori!
I was talking to the guy in the shop about approach shoes then, and also had these in mind when talking about fell-running shoes, but they're obviously something completely different.
I don't run btw, I'm just a walker (and do the occasional bit of climbing as well) - and also would like to walk that 100k, not run.
That walk will just be on nearly perfect trails through the woods and in town, no mud and certainly no river crossings.
I'll just get a pair of trainers without a membrane for the walking, and search for some comfy approach shoes for mountain walking/scrambing for short, easy walks.
I was talking to the guy in the shop about approach shoes then, and also had these in mind when talking about fell-running shoes, but they're obviously something completely different.
I don't run btw, I'm just a walker (and do the occasional bit of climbing as well) - and also would like to walk that 100k, not run.
That walk will just be on nearly perfect trails through the woods and in town, no mud and certainly no river crossings.
I'll just get a pair of trainers without a membrane for the walking, and search for some comfy approach shoes for mountain walking/scrambing for short, easy walks.
In reply to Arjen: I've not worn the sealskinz yet, now considering getting a pair.
Re the goretex I agree with Satori, on a fell run/rough trails you will have to ford streams/go through bogs, wet grass puddles so inevitably water will get down your trainers and won't be able to get out, making them heavier.
Re the goretex I agree with Satori, on a fell run/rough trails you will have to ford streams/go through bogs, wet grass puddles so inevitably water will get down your trainers and won't be able to get out, making them heavier.
In reply to Arjen:
You may want to take a look at the Montrail range. Planet Fear have got these on offer at the moment - a bit of a bargain - they will be fine for walking as well as running;
http://www.planetfear.com/product_detail.asp?d_id=1&c_id=24&s_id=51...
They have a no quibble returns policy, so if they don't fit you can just send them back for a full refund. Think carefully about socks as well, as they can make all the difference if you are considering a distance of 100km. The X socks are excellent, imo, - they give excellent cushioning where you need it and are also very good at wicking moisture away from the foot.
You may want to take a look at the Montrail range. Planet Fear have got these on offer at the moment - a bit of a bargain - they will be fine for walking as well as running;
http://www.planetfear.com/product_detail.asp?d_id=1&c_id=24&s_id=51...
They have a no quibble returns policy, so if they don't fit you can just send them back for a full refund. Think carefully about socks as well, as they can make all the difference if you are considering a distance of 100km. The X socks are excellent, imo, - they give excellent cushioning where you need it and are also very good at wicking moisture away from the foot.
In reply to Arjen:
Well I've just been out taking shots of a fell race and standing around in boggy fields in trainers and Sealskinz sockw was no problem whatsoever. The only time that I've found them to not be warm is when mountain biking in winter, but I think this is as much to do with heat being conducted from your feet by close contact with the pedals as anything.
Fell running shoes with worn down soles - they have an aggressive grip when new - are fine for easy climbing - I've done up to HS in them.
As for Goretex in shoes - a waste of time in my opinion - the membrane will (and does) get broken very quickly with the flexing of the shoe and the shear wear and tear. Fell running shoes are most definitely *not* waterproof, in fact the fabric can be closer to mesh than anything else. This is to allow water to exit the shoe (it is accepted that at some point in a race you are going to get wet/muddy or both) as having several hundred extra grammes of weight on your feet will slow you down.
The philosophy of wearing lightweight shoes in the hills is different - you are making various trade-offs: light weight vs less impact protection; speed vs dry feet; etc.
As for long distance events, I wore a pair of Adidas Swoops for the Bob Graham - 100km and 8000m of ascent - no blisters, no turned ankles.
boB
Well I've just been out taking shots of a fell race and standing around in boggy fields in trainers and Sealskinz sockw was no problem whatsoever. The only time that I've found them to not be warm is when mountain biking in winter, but I think this is as much to do with heat being conducted from your feet by close contact with the pedals as anything.
Fell running shoes with worn down soles - they have an aggressive grip when new - are fine for easy climbing - I've done up to HS in them.
As for Goretex in shoes - a waste of time in my opinion - the membrane will (and does) get broken very quickly with the flexing of the shoe and the shear wear and tear. Fell running shoes are most definitely *not* waterproof, in fact the fabric can be closer to mesh than anything else. This is to allow water to exit the shoe (it is accepted that at some point in a race you are going to get wet/muddy or both) as having several hundred extra grammes of weight on your feet will slow you down.
The philosophy of wearing lightweight shoes in the hills is different - you are making various trade-offs: light weight vs less impact protection; speed vs dry feet; etc.
As for long distance events, I wore a pair of Adidas Swoops for the Bob Graham - 100km and 8000m of ascent - no blisters, no turned ankles.
boB
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