UKC

I bought a Wild Country/Terra Nova Hyperspace tent about five years ago and have always looked after it.
This year I put it up for the first time only to find the fabric of the fly kept ripping along stitched seams, whenever they were stretched.
A climbing shop owner says the damage was caused by UV, presumably when I was camped in hot weather in Verdon last year. Now I've got to pay more than £200 for a new fly.
Isn't this crap? Shouldn't a mountain tent be able to survive sun light as well as rain? I remember the brochure showed the tent pitched in hot countries. I understand some modern tents have UV protection. Otherwise what the hell are you supposed to do- wipe the tent in sun cream?

In reply to John Alcock:

Sounds bad, how many days/nights have you had out of it? Approx of course.

In reply to sandyman: I think the newer "Ultra" flysheets have better UV resistance than the older, heavier PU ones. My old Quasar fly died in a similar manner, as did a friend's Voyager fly.

The good news is you've still got the inner and poles I suppose...so you only have to buy half a new tent.

Most tent manufacturers have warnings about UV danage, especially at altitude or in Oz/NZ, where there's no ozone layer left to help.


It's annoying, but it's life. I blame American SUV drivers, but that's cos I'm a bigot!

In reply to John Alcock: should last longer than 5 yrs...presumably you haven't spent more than say 10-20 days a year in sunny conditions in it, if that? Might not necessarily be due to UV either...I'd contact Terra Nova direct and query them...

In reply to Ian Hill:
Probably used it for around 200 nights. It was consistently over 100 in Verdon last June.

In reply to john alcock:
Unfortunately, nylon tent flys age rather quickly when left out in the sun for extended periods of time. Polyester flys have more uv resistance but the bottom line is if you want the fly to last a long time protect it from the sun. Probably not what you want to hear. Surprised this was not mentioned in the care instructions.

In reply to Raincoast: so ideally you should only put the tent up in the dark and take it down again in the morning????

In reply to John Alcock: Have you contacted Wild Country? I don't think this is good enough.

In reply to Dave Stelmach:
Not yet, cos the climbing shop owner said it was normal.

In reply to Dave Stelmach:

Crap, isn't it. You get the same performance out of a £500 "mountain tent" (presumeably not a high mountain as UV is well known for being much stronger at altitude) as a Millets special. And you get to seal your own seams !!

In reply to Ian Hill:
That is one albeit not very convenient option. Another would be to pitch the tent in the shade or throw a cheap piece of plastic over it during the day. Extended exposure to uv eats tent flys. An inconvenient fact to be sure. Investing in expensive gear means taking care of it if you want it to last.

In reply to Raincoast:

In terms of unacceptability is this not a little bit like having to carry an umbrella to stop the weather damaging your goretex?
I have a suspicion this is more built-in obsolescence than a fundamental material limitation.

In reply to John Alcock:

The answer is to use a cheap tent for valley camping and save your mountain tent for- MOUNTAINS

In reply to sutty: or use a hotel, I've never seen one of them suffer from UV damage

In reply to john alcock:
I do not see your complaint. What was the price of the tent - £500. Thats £2.50 a night. Plus, you only have to replace the flysheet, and are now going to considerably extend the life of your tent, reducing the cost per night average.

I personally think you will have had good value from your tent - nothing lasts for ever, particularly as it is supposed to be light, spacious, etc. 100 days in probably strong sunshine is bound to have an effect.

In reply to Li'l Zé: At last- a practical solution to leaky goretex!

In reply to John Alcock:

to be fair, 200 nights is about what i would expect from such a tent. The original gtx lifetime (or might have been 3 yrs or 5yrs) guarentee was supposed to be based on 90 days use apparently!!!!!! consequently replaced by a 'satisfaction' guarentee, which was generally interpretated according to the mood your shop asst was in.

In reply to sandyman: mmmm 200 nights with a cost of £500 (?) so £2.50 per night for the use of the tent...seems quite good put that way...

In reply to Ian Hill:

Seems crap to me. Paying as much for tent depreciation as you do for the pitch.

In reply to GrahamD:

What do you expect realistically? Surely, you can't expect something to last for ever. Things just do wear out. Fact. Get over it. We eventually replaced out Ultra Quasar (with another Ultra Quasar) after 8 years use. The flysheet was a state, but i feel we got good value from it.

Maybe companies could produce a tent of similar specification, but lasted significantly longer. However, it would be (significantly) more expensive, and no one would buy it.

In reply to GrahamD:

And another thing (on a pre lunchtime rant), maybe the "pitch" is too expensive, rather than the depreciation of the tent. Buy a cheaper tent if it's always used on a campsite!

In reply to SornaBob:
I intend to keep the old fly to pitch over the top of the new one in hot weather.
Probably won't work well if there's a wind though.

In reply to John Alcock: Hi John, interesting post this because it shows up a lot about peoples expectations of kit. Basically you haven't been ripped off at all, and the deterioration of your tent after 5 years and considerable use should be no real surprise. As folk have mentioned there are a few things you could have done to extend its life but the real question I think is that you have a performance lightweight mountain tent and are expecting it to work as a long term durable general verdon camping tent. The reason you pay a big wack 500 quid or so is because of the design and use of fabric to create something that will provide protection in hurricane winds in the Himalayas yet still be portable by 1 climber of a route. Decathlon make some some funky camping tents for the Verdon which will cost you about 60 quid you'll probably get 60 great nights out in them before it needs replacing so hey presto £1 a night rather than the "terrible" £2.50 a night in your posh mountain tent.

It's a bit like having a ferrari to go shopping at Sainsburys and then being offended by the annual service charges. Anyway happy Camping!

In reply to Ian Parnell:
The funny thing is Ian that what with my arthritis and Lorne's back, neither of us are fit enough to carry the tent into the mountains anyway.

In reply to Ian Parnell:

Tesco were doing a nice 4 man dome tent for £25 recently. I was shocked to discover it doesn't even weigh much more than the Terranova/ TNF/ etc equivalent.

In reply to tobyfk: Argos 2 man Sierra Designs Copy Less than 2 Kg £30 superb!

In reply to SornaBob:

The point is that Terra Novas (and TNF and etc.)are considerably more expensive than less fashionable tents made out of pretty much the same material.

I won't expect a tent to last forever but I also won't pay £500 for a 2 man tent plus logo.

In reply to john alcock: Not sure if it is normal. We have a Terra Nova tent that is now about 9 years old. We regularly went on 2 week trips camping in NZ and Oz for 5 years in a row in the summer, one trip was 6 weeks in Oz. Not to mention countless weekends in NZ. We have also used it in several hot places in Europe at various times of the year, including at altitude. Never had any problems,except for the zip seizing and dying after several uses in the US last year.

In reply to GrahamD:

Yes, I agree, the tents are expensive. But they are built for a purpose.

Take a Quasar and a £60 nylon tent from Argos, or wherever. Pitch them in a campsite in the sun, and I would guess that they last similar lifespans with regard to the nylon flysheets.

Take the same 2 tents, and pitch them in the mountains. See how long they last. I suspect that the Quasar will be around a significantly longer period of time.

That is why you are paying more.

In reply to SornaBob:
But I'm told that many tents are now coated with a UV protection. Given that even in the mountains tents are often exposed to strong sunlight, shouldn't £500 plus tents be coated with UV protection?

In reply to SornaBob:



Yes, yes .. we all know that. The point is that most of us buy our expensive posh-brand tents then use them 95% of the time in a campsite next to the car. Rationally it would make more sense to use the Tesco/ Argos/ Decathlon tent on these occasions but most of us don't... a vanity thing I expect ... we don't want to look like punters.

In reply to john alcock:
Does it say "UV protection" or "UV resistant". Resistance does not imply that it will last indefinitely. It will last longer with it than without.

Think of suncream - when you put that on, you have to re-aply it after a period of time as it wears out.

I am not defending poor value for money, or crap products. In this case, i believe that there is an unrealistic expectation of what the product will do. If you are really disatisfied, do not buy from Terra Nova for your next choice, buy an alternative, and see how you get on. You are not being forced to part with £200 - you could buy a 2 person tent for that money no problem. Think of the use you will be putting the tent to (sleeping, yes I know, but where it is to be used), and see if you really need a £500 tent.

If my car gave me as good value for money as your tent has, i'd be laughing.

In reply to tobyfk:
So the problem lies with your concern for your image, and using your example, the "badge" on the tent probably is important

In reply to tobyfk:

Ironic really, brand new, brand name mountain tents pitched in the Langdale campsite might just as well have "PUNTER" logos rather than TNF

In reply to sandyman and others : So we should be happy with mountain tents that only last a few years? £2.50 per night of use is reasonable?

I suppose this fits in with manufacturers' tame pundits that convince people to change their gear every time it gets wet... There was someone the other day asking if a 2 year old rope that had seen little use but had been exposed to the sun a wee bit was safe to use.

Good to see nice tame consumers queuing up to lick the hand that bites them.... or something like that, sigh!

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Mountain tents, or any other tent used regularly will degrade, either through sunlight, storm force winds weakening the fabric or the grounsheet packing in due to wear. The old Blacks tents we used in the 60s lasted about 5/6 years hard use but leaked and eventually tore, you still see bleached specimens around from time to time.

Decide what you want to do with the tent and buy accordingly, that £60 tent could last the same time or longer if it does not suffer from many storms, and if it DOES fail you buy another. 8*£60 = £480, a good few years use. Just do not take them up on high mountains.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Please enlighten us with what you would reckon is a reasonable cost per night?

In reply to John Alcock:
A few years ago I had a Vango with a flysheet that turned as brittle as burnt paper after a couple of summers in the States. Vango called it actinic degradation I believe, and suggested taking the tent down during the day!!!
BUT they also replaced it at no charge - so I had no cause to complain - good customer relations I reckon.
All the best

Chris

In reply to John Alcock: Cut out the shop( generally they cant be arsed to pursue such matters) and go straight to terra Nova. They have been very good when I have returned stuff to them over eg dodgy seams . You don't have to be scrupulous when describing your use of the tent.....a fortnight in the Verdon sounds a whole lot better than 100 days!!!

In reply to SornaBob: Difficult to say, my old tent with a polyester flysheet is at least 25 years old, goodness knows how many days it's been used, hundreds certainly, and apart from a tear where I threw an axe through it and perished rubbers its still going strong. I think I payed 2 to 300 French Francs for it... and I thought it was dear at the time. Is that any help? It's not what I would call anything special.

In reply to GrahamD:

Crap tents are of course even more useful when camping for more than one night in dodgy, non-campsites - by the stream in Llanberis Pass, the South Stack carpark, etc. I-have-got-a-new-NorthFace-man frets about his tent getting nicked, whilst CrapTentMan couldn't give a sh*t ...

In reply to Peter Milton:
You don't have to be scrupulous when describing your use of the tent.....a fortnight in the Verdon sounds a whole lot better than 100 days!!!

You don't have to be scrupulous but you could try being honest.

In reply to Raincoast: Shouldn't your user name be 'raincoats'?

In reply to john alcock:

Didn't see this thread before posting on the other Quasar thread, but a mate is now on his 3rd flysheet for *his* Quasar. He compared the durability of Quasar flys very poorly when stacked against Saunders tents: he reckons he was getting twice the lifetime from Saunders flys as he was getting from Quasars.

OTOH, I've got an old "Campari" tent that I've had since 1973. Think it cost £9.99. It's now relegated to my son's festival tent, but it's probably seen 1200 pitch nights at least, a lot of those in Oz, New Zealand, Fiji and other hot/ sunny places, though not at significant altitude. Apart from a couple of tiny holes where the cat dug its claws in one day, the fly appears as strong as it was on the day I bought it. Groundsheet's wearing badly, though.

In reply to SornaBob:

I don't think it's necessarily an unrealistic expectation. If, say, a Saunders flysheet lasts twice as long under similar conditions as the Quasar, I think it's reasonable to suggest that Terra Nova takes a look at their flysheet specification.

In reply to John Alcock:

where is this heading ???

I can see it now 'argos tents' on the next Everest posters,LOL.

I reckon if you could get the argos tent supplier to (is it terra Nova ?) to get a famous climber to use their tent (Inc the bung of a few thousand quid)create a fancy logo charge £550 (manu coast 29.99) and before you know it,

this time next year Rodney we could be both be ......

In reply to John Alcock:

John's problems I agree would be best resolved direct with terra nova in Alfreton derbyshire. Think you will be suprised and pleased with their customer service from all accounts they are first class.
A strategic and tactfully worded letter or p/call may work wonders.

But moving the issue on do the majority think that johns point has highlighted isues that terra nova tents.

1) are they overpriced?
2) Are we seriously saying that argos,tesco and asda are selling tents of a simular quality / materials.

In a bad storm in an exposed position I know what I would rather be in .....

my bed

In reply to andy H:
Not if they're constantly replacing flysheets from people who've done 100 days in the Verdon ,b ut complain saying they only did a fortnight.


Ian Parnell hit the nail on the head, if you use it, it won't last as long, I do a lot of miles in my car, 20-24k per year, I expect ro have to replace brake pads, discs & tyres, if I did less miles, I would have a longer interval between such repairs.

In reply to John: "But I'm told that many tents are now coated with a UV protection. Given that even in the mountains tents are often exposed to strong sunlight, shouldn't £500 plus tents be coated with UV protection?

The word in bold is the key to your griping, you say you bought the tent about 5 years ago, this wasn't being done back then. In the same way as older cars don't have airbags & ABS. Technology changes, things improve, stump up £200 for your new flysheet, get more than the 200 nights that you had with the last one (say 250, a 25% increase??), you've shelled out £700 for 450 nights accomodation, that's £1.56 per night, including servicing, for a bombproof tent. If that's still too much, then find a cheaper alternative!

Cheers!

In reply to andy H:

No...what *I'm* saying, at least, is that some tents in a similar price band to the Quasar seem to have flysheets that stand up better to UV than the Quasar ones do.

The bit about my old Campari was just a comment. I expected the thing to last a max of 2 years when I got it...it's now just clocked up 30 years. Certainly wouldn't use it in bad storms or at altitude though, but if it gets trashed at Reading, who cares?

In reply to CENSORED:

But the Saunders flysheets, which I was comparing the Quasars too [only because (a) I have one and (b) a mate has been able to compare durability] are of a similar, or even older, vintage to the Quasar under discussion. If *they*, in a similar price band, had reasonable UV protection 5,6,7 years ago, it's surely significant that Quasars didn't.

In reply to Rob Naylor: Oh FFS...

1) There are different Quasars available now. There is the Endurance Quasar, which is heavier, and the Ultra Quasar, which is lighter, QED!

2) The modern Quasars have a much improved flysheet, (Watershed?) which IIRC is nylon with a durable PU nylon coated inner and a silicone elastomer outer. It's not possible to tape silicon elastomer, which is why all SE only tent flys come with seam sealer for us to dick around attempting to seal ourselves. So TN put PU on the inside, to allow seam sealing and stop us moaning about having to seal seams ourselves.

3) The difference between the Ultra and Endurance ranges is the weight of the nylon in the fly. Ultra flys are ripstop, and Endurance flys are a heavier weight with better UV resistance (presumably you have to fry more, thicker fibres before they lose strength).

4) I think the SE coatings inherently improve UV resistance too. As far as I know the external SE coating is a relatively recent upgrade and the tents described above may have predated this.

So, the nub is, flysheets now are better than they were a few years ago - but are still to a greater or lesser extent will get fried during prolonged use in intent sunlight. Saunders flysheets can be SE coated only, whilst the heavier grade ones are PU again - with taped seams.

So instead of comparing one tent fly with another, compare flys made of the same material with the same coatings....