UKC

Looking to buy lighweight cookware for two. (Used a metal mug for myself up until the wifey decided to 'enjoy' my pasttimes too!)

Anyone got experience of using said Ti? Is it worth the money or am I better buying Aluminium?

In reply to Craig M: MSR Blacklite, forget the Ti, poor conductor, not as efficient!

In reply to Anonymous: Is that the £95 panset? sheesh, whats wrong with a wet paper bag?

In reply to Craig M:Ti waste of money - the grams you save in weight are outweighed considerably it's pants conductivity. MSR Black get my vote.

In reply to Craig M:

Thanks for the pointers guys, I'll steer clear then.

In reply to Craig M:

This is pretty remarkable actually. Thermal conductivity k (W/mK):

Aluminium - 205
Steel (mild) ~ 50
Titanium - 17


Of cource this is not the whole story. The deree to which such differences matter depend on the rate at which water can remove heat from the upper surface of the pan bottom- though I suspect it does make a large difference. Pretty remarkable, huh!

In reply to Craig M:

Just a thought, there is a link with altzimers and aluminium; I have noticed that when boiling water for some time in an alu pan it often takes on a grey tinge (takes on some of the aluminium). I have started to use trangia none stick pans and have found it has solved this problem. It also helps when washing up! As for TI I can’t justify the cost over the weight saving.

In reply to thisuldo:

Did you read what I wrote about the conductivity? I dont think I can justify carrying the extra gas! Yes, Aluminium Oxide is linked to Alzheimer's, but it would only be relevant if you were using the pan every day - occasional use will have no affect.

In reply to Craig M:

On the plus side, you get a double gain from using Ti cookware: Not only are your pans lighter to carry, your wallet is as well !

In reply to GrahamD:

Good point!

I've got a titanium pan and have not noticed any time problems with boiling at all. I think that the time difference would actually be seconds with a quality stove. Sure its expensive but if you want to save weight on everything possible then titanium is the way to go. Has any one of the above posters actually used it?

In reply to Simon h: Are they really that much lighter than a light aluminium set???

Mike

In reply to Simon h:

"but if you want to save weight on everything possible then titanium is the way to go"

you missed the point we were making - if you read my response again you will see what I meant.

In reply to Tom P:

but there again the high aluminium levels in the tea that you drink everyday are probably going to give you Alzheimer's anyhoo

In reply to Simon h: Only got a Ti Spoon, couldn't afford the pans!

In reply to thisuldo: The link between Alzheimers and aluminium has been shown to be spurious.

In reply to Tom p: i haven't missed your point i just disagree with you!

In reply to Simon h:

Ok I will spell it out. If you save a few grammes on the weight of the pans by opting for titanium rather than aluminium, you may have to carry more fuel. It may be a false compromise.

In reply to Tom P:

Ti is tougher and stronger than Al, twice as dense and has twice the specific heat capacity. This means you can get away with a lighter pan set that won't dent so easily, if you use Ti, and which could have considerably thinner walls than the Al version. Thus, even though the thermal conductivity of Ti is 10x worse than that of Al, that doesn't mean that the Ti base has to be 10X hotter, because it could be made much thinner. In any case, the heat capacity of water is so much greater than that of either Ti or Al that i bet the people who say so are right - I doubt you'll notice a difference in boiling times, whichever you use.

I'm making all this up. I have never touched a Ti pan, nevermind owned one.

In reply to mbh:

"Ti is... has twice the specific heat capacity [of Al]"

Actually c for Ti and Al are:
Ti : c = 500
Al : c = 880

So the opposite is true in fact, and in any case this is irrelevant.

"... this means you can get away with a lighter pan set that won't dent so easily, if you use Ti, and which could have considerably thinner walls than the Al version."

Well, you cant show this from anything you have said, but the density ratio for Al/Ti is 0.6, and the ratio of yield stress is about 0.28... so yes, you certainly might be able to get away with a thinner wall, but this really depends on many other factors as well.


"Thus, even though the thermal conductivity of Ti is 10x worse than that of Al, that doesn't mean that the Ti base has to be 10X hotter..."

Actually it is the temperature difference between the lower and upper surface of the base that would have to be increaed by a factor of 10.

"... it could be made much thinner."

In practice the difference in weight between the Al and the Ti pans (both of high quality) is very small.


"In any case, the heat capacity of water is so much greater than that of either Ti or Al that i bet the people who say so are right - I doubt you'll notice a difference in boiling times, whichever you use."

Utterly spuroius statement. The c of water does not come into it. What matters is the heat transfer rate at the wall, which depends on the convection currents and the wall temperature.

"I'm making all this up."

Too right mate! Why say anything at all if you are going to make it all up.

In reply to Tom P:

Thanks for that friendly response Tom. "Making it up" means having some fun trying to work out a problem. So I made some mistakes, like getting the values the wrong way around for Al and Ti, but, well, so what. I had a go.


I hate these snide put downs that people stick sometimes on the end of their posts. Do you talk do people face to face like that? Do you always slap down people who get it wrong?

In reply to Tom P:
FYI just started trying some empirical tests.

200ml water, MSR Pocket rocket medium heat.

MSR Titan Mug (dia 78mm)
Boiling time 2min29sec

Stainless Steel Mug (dia 82mm)
Boiling Time 2min47sec

Not sure what this proves - research goes on.....

Mark

In reply to Mark Stevenson:
Being as you have boiled the water.












brew up please.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:
Cont...

500ml water, MSR Pocket rocket medium heat. Lids on.

Sigg Pan (0.8litre Aluminium/0.2mm Stainless Steel)
Boiling Time 6min45sec

MSR Titan Pan (2litre)
Boiling time 7min20sec

[More trials are needed to confirm effects are due to material and not pan geometry and not the gas canister running down. Taken with the previous result, these remain inconclusive.]

Mark

In reply to Spotthedog:
>The grams you save in weight are outweighed considerably it's pants conductivity.

Having done some admittedly rather quick claculations based on my last test, I'm pretty convinced that for any trip less than around 7 days, the weight saving outweighs any extra fuel used.

Can only think of one occasion when I've ever carried more than 5 days food and fuel so I'm happy enough that my Titanium pan really does save me weight.

However, I'll agree with those who've recommended MSR Blacklite. It's a good and cheaper (if slightly heavier) choice.

Mark

In reply to Tom P: You need to get out more.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

Excellent! This is the real way to do things, as it takes all factors into account. I think the test that would be really intersting though is to do the following:

1) New gas cylinder inserted. Flame ignited and put to a medium to low setting (to reduce the heat lost aroud the pad sides) and left to stabalise for say 5 mins, so that the fuel heats up to the steady state condition.

2) Pans wiht most similar geometry (both wiht lids - type does not matter) and with exacly the same ammount of water in them (probably 80% of the maximum of the smallest volume of the pair of pans)

3) Leave pans of water to reach room temp.

4) Put on flame consecutively, and measure time to boiling. Even better would be to use a thermometer, as it is difficult to spot the exact point of boiling. If you did the latter you could go from say 10C to 90C

If you get the chance woudl be very interested in the results. I did a lot of tests myslelf wiht Al and Steel pans, and found that you should always take a lid! This really does make a big difference!