This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
I climb in a German climbing hall. The Germans are big fans of the Italian hitch and I’m not. Should anything happen and that rope start to go I think the rope burn would win over falling partner ?
Have only seen – heard actually – one man hit the deck. When I heard the nasty bang on the floor and looked round I saw a grown (or should that be groan) man clutching his shin and crying with pain. His belayer looking sheepishly on, clutching his GriGri...the other popular form of belaying there.....safe???? At least a fracture. Didn’t fancy waltzing over and asking “what went wrong there then?” SMACK! ???
I’m contemplating a Wild Country Variable Controller.
Thoughts on Variable Controllers which seem to be a better option over GriGris?
Have only seen – heard actually – one man hit the deck. When I heard the nasty bang on the floor and looked round I saw a grown (or should that be groan) man clutching his shin and crying with pain. His belayer looking sheepishly on, clutching his GriGri...the other popular form of belaying there.....safe???? At least a fracture. Didn’t fancy waltzing over and asking “what went wrong there then?” SMACK! ???
I’m contemplating a Wild Country Variable Controller.
Thoughts on Variable Controllers which seem to be a better option over GriGris?
In reply to nfb:
gri-gri's are fine, used properly & appropriately. have a look at this for some more info:
http://www.planetfear.com/climbing/features/technical/belaydevices1.html
gri-gri's are fine, used properly & appropriately. have a look at this for some more info:
http://www.planetfear.com/climbing/features/technical/belaydevices1.html
In reply to nfb: I have run a VC for years, and love it. Gri-gri's scare me! Plus, you must NOT use a gri-gri on a trad climb, as they have a snatch loading rated higher than most gear!
See Petzl's website for details.
Tim, TG
See Petzl's website for details.
Tim, TG
In reply to O Mighty Tim:
I think the WC VC is all hype. I own one and I generally find it never get's used on the configuration ment for less friction on wider ropes. I find it abseils badly on both configurations but worse so on the one ment for wider ropes. The rope range is from 8.5 mm - 11mm. Get the DMM Bug, this does a wider range of ropes 8mm - 11mm with less hype that never get's used, else you'll end up needing more than one bellay device....
I think the WC VC is all hype. I own one and I generally find it never get's used on the configuration ment for less friction on wider ropes. I find it abseils badly on both configurations but worse so on the one ment for wider ropes. The rope range is from 8.5 mm - 11mm. Get the DMM Bug, this does a wider range of ropes 8mm - 11mm with less hype that never get's used, else you'll end up needing more than one bellay device....
In reply to nfb:
the italian hitch has a higher braking force than the most belay devices of the vrc/atc type which effectively means the belayer has lees input so i cant see that rope burn is anymore of a concern than normal.
as for lead belaying with a grigri, a technique i picked up a while ago is to keep the control rope in the control hand and bring it back and over the bevel edge. with your thumb you can hold down the lever and STILL have your hand in contact with control rope, as opposed to the more common and (in two instances ive witnessed) nearly lethal method of yarding out the rope with the lever down and no hands!!
> I climb in a German climbing hall. The Germans are big fans of the Italian hitch and I’m not. Should anything happen and that rope start to go I think the rope burn would win over falling partner ?
the italian hitch has a higher braking force than the most belay devices of the vrc/atc type which effectively means the belayer has lees input so i cant see that rope burn is anymore of a concern than normal.
as for lead belaying with a grigri, a technique i picked up a while ago is to keep the control rope in the control hand and bring it back and over the bevel edge. with your thumb you can hold down the lever and STILL have your hand in contact with control rope, as opposed to the more common and (in two instances ive witnessed) nearly lethal method of yarding out the rope with the lever down and no hands!!
In reply to everyone:
ok thanks. It seems the WC VC will win the day. The problem here is that I'll have to order over the net, otherwise I would simply walk into a shop and try one.
The Salewa Tubus (also known as Jaws I think???)seems to be in every shop I walk into but I didn't like the look of that either. It didn't look as though it would handle too smoothly?
I was aware of the "GriGri on trad route" issue - but thanks for that advice too
NFB.
ok thanks. It seems the WC VC will win the day. The problem here is that I'll have to order over the net, otherwise I would simply walk into a shop and try one.
The Salewa Tubus (also known as Jaws I think???)seems to be in every shop I walk into but I didn't like the look of that either. It didn't look as though it would handle too smoothly?
I was aware of the "GriGri on trad route" issue - but thanks for that advice too
NFB.
In reply to nfb:
Plain old Sticht plate or one of the derivatives such as (in no particular order) Bettabrake, Tuber, VC etc, would be my choice. I currently have a variable controller and am more than happy with it.
Personally I think that the GriGri is overrated, it appears to encourage poor belaying technique, i.e. watching totty rather than your partner etc.
A quick table of comparisom.
Gri Gri VC
Single rope yes yes
Double/twin ropes no yes
Bolted routes yes yes
Mixed pro no yes
Trad routes no! yes
Abseiling no? yes
Winter no yes
Alpine no yes
In short the GriGri does about 1/4 the job that a basic belay plate does and doesn't even do that in a safe consistent manner. It also weighs far more.
Bob
Plain old Sticht plate or one of the derivatives such as (in no particular order) Bettabrake, Tuber, VC etc, would be my choice. I currently have a variable controller and am more than happy with it.
Personally I think that the GriGri is overrated, it appears to encourage poor belaying technique, i.e. watching totty rather than your partner etc.
A quick table of comparisom.
Gri Gri VC
Single rope yes yes
Double/twin ropes no yes
Bolted routes yes yes
Mixed pro no yes
Trad routes no! yes
Abseiling no? yes
Winter no yes
Alpine no yes
In short the GriGri does about 1/4 the job that a basic belay plate does and doesn't even do that in a safe consistent manner. It also weighs far more.
Bob
In reply to stu:
well, I find - and I'm only talking climbing hall here - that when dead end is kept alligned with live end the It. Hitch works pretty well.
However, if caught off guard by partner who appears to be quickly and easily moving onward and upward - rope being paid out - then just slips off the slippage can be more than I feel happy with. So my real concern is with holding a sudden fall. And before you say it....yes I know belayers should be attentive at all times - but that doesn't stop me wanting to lower the odds of injury to me or anyone else.
I am listening though.
NB
well, I find - and I'm only talking climbing hall here - that when dead end is kept alligned with live end the It. Hitch works pretty well.
However, if caught off guard by partner who appears to be quickly and easily moving onward and upward - rope being paid out - then just slips off the slippage can be more than I feel happy with. So my real concern is with holding a sudden fall. And before you say it....yes I know belayers should be attentive at all times - but that doesn't stop me wanting to lower the odds of injury to me or anyone else.
I am listening though.
NB
In reply to nfb:
I personally like the Salewa device. With the live end of the rope across the two V shaped grooves the device is as dynamic as an ATC. With the free end of the rope through the notches the device will lock the rope easily in a fall.
Does what the Variable tries to.
CJC
I personally like the Salewa device. With the live end of the rope across the two V shaped grooves the device is as dynamic as an ATC. With the free end of the rope through the notches the device will lock the rope easily in a fall.
Does what the Variable tries to.
CJC
In reply to CJC:
right....that's it then...I'll have to go into a shop and try one of those before making up my mind...ho hum ;O)
right....that's it then...I'll have to go into a shop and try one of those before making up my mind...ho hum ;O)
In reply to Bob:
So do you find in practice you have any use for the VC used in the less friction configuration. Also do you find it a bit of a pig to ab on or be lowered off by in either configuration despite the hype on the web site as it's more jerky than most devices?
I've owned and own a number of devices and I think the less friction configuration of the WC VC is pretty useless. As a general device the Bug does more and does it more simply also. The bug works well on ropes of a wider diametre and also works better than the WC VC on ropes of a thinner diametre. I've also heard good reports on the salewa for thinner ropes, not sure I'd want to try a new design of belay plate, when the tried and trusted bug design is already out there.
So do you find in practice you have any use for the VC used in the less friction configuration. Also do you find it a bit of a pig to ab on or be lowered off by in either configuration despite the hype on the web site as it's more jerky than most devices?
I've owned and own a number of devices and I think the less friction configuration of the WC VC is pretty useless. As a general device the Bug does more and does it more simply also. The bug works well on ropes of a wider diametre and also works better than the WC VC on ropes of a thinner diametre. I've also heard good reports on the salewa for thinner ropes, not sure I'd want to try a new design of belay plate, when the tried and trusted bug design is already out there.
In reply to Woker:
Hmm, thinking about it, my current belay device may not in fact be a VC as I cannot remember any difference in using it one way or another. Could be one of any number of similar devices which leads to the conclusion that the basic design (plate with slot(s) in it) is right.
Cannot confirm if my device is a VC or not since I am at work and do not make a habit of bringing climbing gear in with me!
Bob
Hmm, thinking about it, my current belay device may not in fact be a VC as I cannot remember any difference in using it one way or another. Could be one of any number of similar devices which leads to the conclusion that the basic design (plate with slot(s) in it) is right.
Cannot confirm if my device is a VC or not since I am at work and do not make a habit of bringing climbing gear in with me!
Bob
In reply to nfb: i found that the tubus is v.jerky and a real pain to ab with, i bought one, then immediatly went out and bought a vc!
I found the vc fine with both small and large diameter ropes, havent had the pleasure of using a bug. although i do have one!, a prize, but i find the vc ok so never felt the need to use it or change.
i suppose, with all the stich plate designs, user preference comes into it, as the error margins are well, marginal between devices such as the vc/bug/tubus.
I found the vc fine with both small and large diameter ropes, havent had the pleasure of using a bug. although i do have one!, a prize, but i find the vc ok so never felt the need to use it or change.
i suppose, with all the stich plate designs, user preference comes into it, as the error margins are well, marginal between devices such as the vc/bug/tubus.
In reply to Bob: THe VC is wedge shaped, and the idea is to have the thick end on the 'climber' side for a more solid brake, with the belayer controlling LESS of the friction, or swap it round, and have the belayer controlling the greater friction, for a smoother, quicker 'run' of the rope?
I have belayed with it, and abbed on it. Both were fine, with 10.5 mm rope, single, OR doubled. It was beginning to grab, and has LOTS of wear and tear, so, whilst investing in a shiny new rope, I've gone out and bought a new device. Petzl Reverso...
But I'm keeping the VC as the 'get out of jail free' device, should everything else fall off me!
Tim, TG
I have belayed with it, and abbed on it. Both were fine, with 10.5 mm rope, single, OR doubled. It was beginning to grab, and has LOTS of wear and tear, so, whilst investing in a shiny new rope, I've gone out and bought a new device. Petzl Reverso...
But I'm keeping the VC as the 'get out of jail free' device, should everything else fall off me!
Tim, TG
In reply to Daniel:
It's a death trap avoid like the plague. Although belaying on it's just fine, safe abing or letting the leader back down on it is hard to do safely. Definetly not a beguinners device if the beguinner has to lower another person using it. the problem being that it is hard work to press the lever to start lowering the climber. If you try and do this on the lever alone the bighting point between a very quick fall to earth and a gentle let down had a very small margin for error. If you try and just do this using the brake line and fully depressing the trigger then you still need to adjust the trigger as fully depressing it will mean too little friction in the system to let down a climbing just on the brake line control. I nearly got killed indoors by a novice user letting me down on one of these devices.
> What about using the WC SRC? Is that not ment to be self-locking too?
>
> Daniel
>
> Daniel
It's a death trap avoid like the plague. Although belaying on it's just fine, safe abing or letting the leader back down on it is hard to do safely. Definetly not a beguinners device if the beguinner has to lower another person using it. the problem being that it is hard work to press the lever to start lowering the climber. If you try and do this on the lever alone the bighting point between a very quick fall to earth and a gentle let down had a very small margin for error. If you try and just do this using the brake line and fully depressing the trigger then you still need to adjust the trigger as fully depressing it will mean too little friction in the system to let down a climbing just on the brake line control. I nearly got killed indoors by a novice user letting me down on one of these devices.
In reply to O Mighty Tim:
Did you mean this ? (see more technical info on WC Variable controller)
http://www.wildcountry.co.uk/frameshardware.html
Did you mean this ? (see more technical info on WC Variable controller)
http://www.wildcountry.co.uk/frameshardware.html
In reply to nfb:
sorry if you though i was being preachy i wasnt. it would be nice to be able to reply to no one in particular if needs be eg for when you just want to put some input into the issue without potentially giving offence or am i missing something with the msg service provided.
sorry if you though i was being preachy i wasnt. it would be nice to be able to reply to no one in particular if needs be eg for when you just want to put some input into the issue without potentially giving offence or am i missing something with the msg service provided.
In reply to stu:
no offence taken whatsoever. It's V. DIFF to get one's point across on either side. I'm suprised by the amount of help I've had on this subject as I'm new to this site.
Here's my "perfect world" example which - I hope - explains exactly what I need to know:
I'm standing in the climbing hall with my mate, and a friend comes over with a BUG, a TUBUS, a WC VC and a GriGri (which I'm going "off" by the minute)and says "here, try these, and I'll also show you all the pitfalls of the GriGri as I'm an expert with this device".
--------------------------
I have only "looked" at the TUBUS, and it seemed that it could be fiddly trying to ensure the rope remained in the groove. I could be wrong?
I'm only interested in belaying. I've always used an EIGHT for rapping...no jokes please
The TUBUS seems to be the only device in the shops here, and yet I've seen no one using it in the hall??? I've seen the ATC being used, but this seems to be in the "slick" category.
I'm already put off the SRC and the other two I climb with are not keen on the GriGri either.
So: I want to be able to pay out quickly, and hold a surprise fall with the greatest of ease/safety/simplicity.
How about this, marks out of ten for the following:
VC
TUBUS
BUG
I hope I'm helping others here too?
no offence taken whatsoever. It's V. DIFF to get one's point across on either side. I'm suprised by the amount of help I've had on this subject as I'm new to this site.
Here's my "perfect world" example which - I hope - explains exactly what I need to know:
I'm standing in the climbing hall with my mate, and a friend comes over with a BUG, a TUBUS, a WC VC and a GriGri (which I'm going "off" by the minute)and says "here, try these, and I'll also show you all the pitfalls of the GriGri as I'm an expert with this device".
--------------------------
I have only "looked" at the TUBUS, and it seemed that it could be fiddly trying to ensure the rope remained in the groove. I could be wrong?
I'm only interested in belaying. I've always used an EIGHT for rapping...no jokes please
The TUBUS seems to be the only device in the shops here, and yet I've seen no one using it in the hall??? I've seen the ATC being used, but this seems to be in the "slick" category.
I'm already put off the SRC and the other two I climb with are not keen on the GriGri either.
So: I want to be able to pay out quickly, and hold a surprise fall with the greatest of ease/safety/simplicity.
How about this, marks out of ten for the following:
VC
TUBUS
BUG
I hope I'm helping others here too?
In reply to nfb:
VC 7 / 10
- as I commented the hype on the slicker way round being any slicker or better for abbing on is rubbish IMHO. This device is let down as it really is'nt very good for abbing (or being let down on), in either configuration as it's jerky. Also part of the purpose of this device is to balay a wide range of diametre ropes (8.5mm - 11mm) yet the range it covers is less than on the bug.
OLD SCHOOL STICH PLATE WITH SPRING 7 / 10
Brilliant system especially for beguiners. Not very slick for quick paying out but easy to get it right in terms of safety. Covers ropes from 8 - 11 mm. It would get a 7.5 / 10 but fails as the spring is always getting caught on your gear / belt, when your not using it. The unsprung version is too graby and even less slick but doesn't get the spring all caught up.
ATC 6.5 / 10
Not a beguinner device, very very slick. OK for sport belaying where this can be a requirement. Scary to ab on without a backup and hard to hold weighted ropes when on lock. Generally just too slick. Only recommended for 9-11 mm ropes.
TUBUS ?
Never used is supposed to be good mainly on thinner ropes (goes down to 8mm)
BUG 8/10
Does the widest range of ropes, abseils well and is slick enough when sport belaying. No hype and outperforms the VC in range of width of ropes supported (8 - 11 mm) and also for abbing or being let down on.
VC 7 / 10
- as I commented the hype on the slicker way round being any slicker or better for abbing on is rubbish IMHO. This device is let down as it really is'nt very good for abbing (or being let down on), in either configuration as it's jerky. Also part of the purpose of this device is to balay a wide range of diametre ropes (8.5mm - 11mm) yet the range it covers is less than on the bug.
OLD SCHOOL STICH PLATE WITH SPRING 7 / 10
Brilliant system especially for beguiners. Not very slick for quick paying out but easy to get it right in terms of safety. Covers ropes from 8 - 11 mm. It would get a 7.5 / 10 but fails as the spring is always getting caught on your gear / belt, when your not using it. The unsprung version is too graby and even less slick but doesn't get the spring all caught up.
ATC 6.5 / 10
Not a beguinner device, very very slick. OK for sport belaying where this can be a requirement. Scary to ab on without a backup and hard to hold weighted ropes when on lock. Generally just too slick. Only recommended for 9-11 mm ropes.
TUBUS ?
Never used is supposed to be good mainly on thinner ropes (goes down to 8mm)
BUG 8/10
Does the widest range of ropes, abseils well and is slick enough when sport belaying. No hype and outperforms the VC in range of width of ropes supported (8 - 11 mm) and also for abbing or being let down on.
In reply to Woker:
Thanks for the input. As they say in the US: “ppreciate that”.
Totally random thought: saw ‘Bowling For Columbine’ at cinema last night…Superb 
Thanks for the input. As they say in the US: “ppreciate that”.
Totally random thought: saw ‘Bowling For Columbine’ at cinema last night…Superb 
In reply to Woker:
Just taken a look at the WC site. Can someone who uses the VC explain to me which part of the rope in those diagrams goes to the climber and which end the belayer is holding. My guess is the left hand rope (the one going up) is the end the climber is on. Also when using the device to ab. I assume that the left hand rope goes to the belay and right hand end in the your hand? In both cases the right hand diagram (no. 2) gives the slicker action?
just trying to get my head around how this thing works....
Andy
Just taken a look at the WC site. Can someone who uses the VC explain to me which part of the rope in those diagrams goes to the climber and which end the belayer is holding. My guess is the left hand rope (the one going up) is the end the climber is on. Also when using the device to ab. I assume that the left hand rope goes to the belay and right hand end in the your hand? In both cases the right hand diagram (no. 2) gives the slicker action?
just trying to get my head around how this thing works....
Andy
In reply to Woker:
And the Petzl Reverso 9/10
I bought one of these earlier this season and have been impressed with it. Having previously used a sprung stitch plate and prior to that an unsprung stitch it is a lot smother (unsuprisingly). I've also used a variety of other belay devices, most of them the VC/Bug/Tuber type (ie two holes and a rigid u wire) but also 8s and a Gri-Gri once. It seems smother than most but with a good strong lock off. It also the facitlity to be used in reverse for different friction, or even as an independant belay device, although I haven't really used these yet.
And the Petzl Reverso 9/10
I bought one of these earlier this season and have been impressed with it. Having previously used a sprung stitch plate and prior to that an unsprung stitch it is a lot smother (unsuprisingly). I've also used a variety of other belay devices, most of them the VC/Bug/Tuber type (ie two holes and a rigid u wire) but also 8s and a Gri-Gri once. It seems smother than most but with a good strong lock off. It also the facitlity to be used in reverse for different friction, or even as an independant belay device, although I haven't really used these yet.
In reply to sandy:
Yes you have it right "the left hand rope (the one going up) is the end the climber is on"
no.2 is slicker as it provides less of an s shape kink in the rope. The braking action also lifts the belay device away from the biner, keeping it less locked and more slicker.
Yes you have it right "the left hand rope (the one going up) is the end the climber is on"
no.2 is slicker as it provides less of an s shape kink in the rope. The braking action also lifts the belay device away from the biner, keeping it less locked and more slicker.
In reply to nfb:
I use a VC all the time. I use diagram 2, with a single 10.5 or two 8.5/9mm ropes. The rope heading upwards is the rope to the climber, whether he is leading or following(if you understand that!). It seems to work very well for me. I have abbed off on it but only on a single 10.5mm rope. If I have it in position 2 with the rope going up to the belay krab, then descent is very controlled but smooth. I even practised at the wall and took my hands off the rope and didn't move. I went back up and tried abbing with the VC in position 1 and came down noticeably quicker, but still smoothly. I tried the "hands off" move, but it simply would not hold me. I am quite happy with it, but have not used a gri-gri. I have seen them in use, and think that they may be fine, once you get used to them, but did I see somewhere that they were not meant to be used on multi pitch or trad climbs? My reccomendation? Get a VC.
I use a VC all the time. I use diagram 2, with a single 10.5 or two 8.5/9mm ropes. The rope heading upwards is the rope to the climber, whether he is leading or following(if you understand that!). It seems to work very well for me. I have abbed off on it but only on a single 10.5mm rope. If I have it in position 2 with the rope going up to the belay krab, then descent is very controlled but smooth. I even practised at the wall and took my hands off the rope and didn't move. I went back up and tried abbing with the VC in position 1 and came down noticeably quicker, but still smoothly. I tried the "hands off" move, but it simply would not hold me. I am quite happy with it, but have not used a gri-gri. I have seen them in use, and think that they may be fine, once you get used to them, but did I see somewhere that they were not meant to be used on multi pitch or trad climbs? My reccomendation? Get a VC.
In reply to MICKLEDORE:
Just thought that I'd add that I use a gri-gri on trad (despite warnings not too). I find it is especially effective on routes where rope needs to be taken in to prevent decking as the belayer can concentrate on running away rather than grabbing the right bit of rope to lock the device. I also use it to abseil to retrieve gear and as it locks off automatically I get easy hands free operation. I have been belayed at an indoor top-rope wall using a gri-gri by someone who only had use of one hand (the other being attached to a broken wrist) and he could belay and lower me without problems.
I am not saying the way I use the gri-gri is 'correct' it obviously isn't. But I have faith in the system and it satisfies my requirements, and hasn't gone wrong. Not a device for beginners but a very handy thing for belaying someone working a project.
Just thought that I'd add that I use a gri-gri on trad (despite warnings not too). I find it is especially effective on routes where rope needs to be taken in to prevent decking as the belayer can concentrate on running away rather than grabbing the right bit of rope to lock the device. I also use it to abseil to retrieve gear and as it locks off automatically I get easy hands free operation. I have been belayed at an indoor top-rope wall using a gri-gri by someone who only had use of one hand (the other being attached to a broken wrist) and he could belay and lower me without problems.
I am not saying the way I use the gri-gri is 'correct' it obviously isn't. But I have faith in the system and it satisfies my requirements, and hasn't gone wrong. Not a device for beginners but a very handy thing for belaying someone working a project.
I'd second that about the reverso....great bit of kit.
Had an ATC which was way to slick for abbing and catching big fat friends, then got a VC cos of all the hype about it being good, which was crap....finally got the reverso which is excellent!
10/10!
Had an ATC which was way to slick for abbing and catching big fat friends, then got a VC cos of all the hype about it being good, which was crap....finally got the reverso which is excellent!
10/10!
In reply to James B:
Gri gri 10/10.
It just rocks
You can eat ice cream and answer your phone in an emergency whilst belaying
Gri gri 10/10.
It just rocks
You can eat ice cream and answer your phone in an emergency whilst belaying
In reply to Noddy:
Just the reasons I don't like it! Strange that isn't it? I like belayers who pay attention.
Bob
Just the reasons I don't like it! Strange that isn't it? I like belayers who pay attention.
Bob
In reply to Bob:
Exactly why I started this whole monster off in the first place. I suspect matey with the shin's mate was up to the same caper! "look at her ar........opppps, sorry mate!"
Actually, I've bought a Salewa Tubus now as it seemed to be just the jinky. I'll let you all know if it's really too jerky for lowering off when I've had a chance to use it.
NFB...yeah you know me =:O)
Exactly why I started this whole monster off in the first place. I suspect matey with the shin's mate was up to the same caper! "look at her ar........opppps, sorry mate!"
Actually, I've bought a Salewa Tubus now as it seemed to be just the jinky. I'll let you all know if it's really too jerky for lowering off when I've had a chance to use it.
NFB...yeah you know me =:O)
In reply to nfb:
OK, here it is:
I've used the TUBUS in anger and it does all I want it to...
so I'm happy. I don't find it jerky for lowering off at all.
So, thanks to all yuz wot replied and I hope I helped others on the way
NFB.
OK, here it is:
I've used the TUBUS in anger and it does all I want it to...
so I'm happy. I don't find it jerky for lowering off at all.
So, thanks to all yuz wot replied and I hope I helped others on the way
NFB.
In reply to nfb:
Had wild country variable controller for 12 months,Not really compared it to any other.
Can only say seems to jam up alot with newer rope.
Just today bought a Cubik.
See how that goes for a change,
Happy xmas and good climbing.
Had wild country variable controller for 12 months,Not really compared it to any other.
Can only say seems to jam up alot with newer rope.
Just today bought a Cubik.
See how that goes for a change,
Happy xmas and good climbing.
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...