UKC

Hi all,

I'm very new and perhaps have a silly question:

I have been researching belay devices until I am sick to death of it and don't have any better direction than before I started. All my watching and reading reviews about assisted braking devices of various types ends with the same conclusions:

1) No guarantee they offer anything if you aren't holding the brake side of the rope.
2) You musty remain attentive.
3) They sometimes require learning a slightly different technique for their individual nuances.
4) They are heavier and bulkier than a tube.
5) Typically can't handle 2 ropes (save for the Alpine Up).
6) More working parts mean more potential for issues, i.e. Neox wheel bearing seizing, ice etc.
7) If anything, give you more things to think about, not less.
8) More expensive.
9) Often less versatile than a tube.
10) Mean you have to run around more because otherwise might give a hard catch.

What am I missing? Assuming I'm not doing any type of rope soloing, what do they really offer? I'm not even convinced there is an additional safety factor.

I'm a minimalist by nature and so far what makes sense to me (without having any actual experience) is having one piece of equipment I know extremely well, which is light and can be used for any style of climbing, with the same technique, so don't have to fight against 'muscle memory'. 

I accept that being a newbie there may be things I haven't even considered yet so happy to be educated. I'm just having a mental block pulling the trigger on buying anything.

Sam

If you're looking for your first device, you're right: a do-it-all tube sounds great. If you're trad climbing multipitch, or have aspirations to, you might pick up one with a guide mode option too, e.g. Pivot, Reverso, ATC guide.

The advantage of the classic assisted-braking belay device, the Grigri, is when it comes to sport climbing. It has a really great cam and this makes it easy to catch lots of big falls and easy to hold someone in position when dogging a route (hanging lots from the rope). This is especially valuable when belaying heavier partners. It does have weaknesses, but these are outweighed by the strengths in this context. It's not usually used for trad or winter climbing in the UK, for lots of reasons that I won't go into.

There is now a really large market of AB devices and each one is subtly or significantly different. They have various strengths that people like, as well as weaknesses or weirdnesses that people dislike. 

Personally, I only used a tube device for about the first 5 year of climbing (all disciplines) and hated AB devices because I struggled to feed out rope. After about 5 years, I became curious again about AB devices and learnt to love the Grigri, but I still use a tube device for about 70% of my climbing (outdoor trad). I feel this is reasonably typical within the UK, though in Europe or the US you would get a different account.

I hope that helps.

With a non-assisted device you’re entirely relying on your own reflex and consistency in holding the dead rope, whereas a GriGri (or similar) you’ve got your own skills and a 99% chance of it auto locking in normal situations.

I don’t use them all the time, but where possible I’ll take that 99%. Even the best belayer in the world isn’t going to be that safe if you accidentally drop a rock on their head. 

Aside from that they’re also much more comfortable as a belayer when someone is working routes and either falling a lot or hanging on the rope.

Grigri is an amazing bit of kit for sport climbing where falls can be unexpected and happen often, and where crags are often busy with a lot of distractions around the belayer. Its not hands free or automatic and should never be treated as such but it is pretty damn reliable. When you are falling off on lead regularly it only takes one case of getting dropped by a distracted belayer to disable you for life or worse. I will let a lot of people belay me on sport climbs with a grigri but with a tube i only really trust a small number of partners.

Theres a reason am expensive device with the disadvantages you list is still almost ubiquitous at sport crags whilst no single other piece of gear is. 

I currently have a Reverso as I was thinking along the same lines.

Actually, that's a good point I hadn't considered. Because the locking mechanism is taking the strain you only need to apply enough force to keep it engaged or just cover the brake side in case it opens up unexpectedly.

I was thinking of either serving my apprenticeship on a tube until I found a specific need for an assisted device or finding an assisted device that can be operated in the same manner without alternative technique. I was drawn towards the Click Up or Pinch for this reason, although some people say you do still need to support and press the cam on the pinch to give slack.

In reply to Indignancy:

I may have been unfair when I said "no guarantee it will do anything" implying it was a 50/50. That may be true if you are not holding the rope at all but actually if you are holding the brake side at the correct angle it should lock most of the time.

I'm still not convinced by the incapacitated belayer scenario but I guess you have more chance of winning at the roulette table if you actually make a bid.

This is probably the most useful and frequent scenario I had overlooked.

Thanks

The Grigri is an odd one for me because on the one hand I don't like that it seems to require specific knowledge, on the other hand it is so well known I could probably hand it to (almost) anyone and they'd know how to use it safely, and so readily available I could borrow one if needed to. I guess market saturation has solved the specificity issue.

You don't have to apply any force: once locked up with the climber's weight it will stay that way. Just let your body be a counterweight via the harness and keep the brake strand in your hand as a backup.

That seems look good reason enough.

Thanks all, sometimes I just need to talk these things through as I've realised as I get older, I'm frequently wrong or might be missing something.

An assisted device like a GriGri *will* in all but the most bizarre circumstances that I’m not sure has ever happened, reliably catch a fall even if the belayer completely lets go of the rope. 

I wouldn’t confuse the very sensible advice to *never* let go of the brake strand, as meaning it wouldn’t catch perfectly well even if you did.

Accidents with GriGris are down to people using them wrong and defeating the safety mechanism by holding the cam shut or panic pulling the lever while lowering.

You could get a Gigajul - which is an assisted braking device from Edelrid and is a normal 'tube' device that handles two ropes- you can use as manual or Assisted - your choice. I have one and its great, I really rate it for most things but I'll still use a Grigri for sport climbing and indoor.

Cheers

S

This, but note that in other countries the culture is often different and assisted devices are more common - I've had a new partner in Canada refuse to let me belay them trad cragging without an assisted device. This seems to be seeping over here - went to an event at a wall in Manchester and on arrival they suddenly said you had to use one too (rather frustrating if not familiar with them). If you're looking at North American videos on this stuff you're no doubt getting different messages. But ultimately this is a large part personal preference. 

Holding a much heavier climber dogging with an ATC is possible but tiring and I can see how an assisted device might well be more pleasant. 

Whatever you use, learn to use it well. Definitely recommend knowing how to belay well with an ATC/Reverso et al but if you move to an assisted device, make sure you get good practise and feedback on that too; bad belaying on those, in my experience, tends to involve rope being paid out too slowly or falling further than needed. You need to be just as responsive, if not more. 

While I would agree with you 99%+ of the time, there have been occasions when a grigri has not locked up when no force at all is applied to the dead end of the rope. I believe this could only happen with a notably thin rope and probably also one that's new and shiny. It certainly has happened to me a long time ago with the Mk1 grigri - thankfully I did actually have the rope loosely in my hand but it didn't actually lock until I'd realised it was whipping right through my hand and I was able to grab onto it enough for the grigri to then lock up. I don't know whether this can still happen with newer versions of the device but I wouldn't be 100% sure it can't.

Grigris are brilliant belay devices but expecting them to be infallible in all circumstances is not to be advised.