UKC

I often find myself sat with groups of walkers who are talking about the routes they have walked and the mountains/places they have been to. All of them understanding and chatting about the same places, all having experienced those routes. I find myself thinking 'I've not done any of these routes or been to that place'.

As an aspiring Mountain Leader (Currently trained), I would like to be comfortable in these conversations, and I don't think I would feel like I deserve to pass the ML without having done some of these famous/popular walks. Knowing that it is a case of 'getting out there and doing it', what would you say are the definitive walks all aspiring ML's should walk. Which walks do you believe (maybe top 10 or 20) are the ones everyone in my position should walk?

In reply to JJSegarty:
Crib Goch / Snowdon horseshoe - so that you can have an opinion on whether it's suitable ML terrain or not!

as per: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=625658

In reply to JJSegarty:

Lyke Wake Challenge.

In reply to JJSegarty:

It would probably very much depend where you were based: if in Scotland, an ML might have done the vast majority of their walking there and possibly rarely ventured south of Hadrian's Wall. My log book contained very little from the Lakes when I went for assessment because I tended to walk in Snowdonia or Scotland rather than the Lakes, so I didn't do Striding Edge, for example, til well after I qualified.

In reply to JJSegarty:

As much as the ML should have the volume of hill days as specified (or more) according to the award requirements, I also wonder if your sentiment is putting the cart before the horse. I strongly believe that a person's internal motivation should solely guide route choice for their personal days on the hill. I could recommend a load of great days on the hill, but none of them are necessarily a 'must' for the ML award and may only reflect my one-sided opinions and biases.

In reply to JJSegarty:

I'd suggest that an ML holder should have the confidence to pick up a map and plan a good route anywhere in the country. It's not about ticklists, its all about ability.

In reply to JJSegarty:

A mix of boggy walks, grassy walks, ridge walks, screey walks etc. And a mix of areas - some knowledge of four or five NPs I would think.

In reply to JJSegarty:
OK, I'm going to presume that you just want to chat with walkers/clients rather than what you actually need for any award.

This is my 10 for starters;

Wales
1 - Crib Goch
2 - Trifan N. Ridge
3 - Bristly Ridge

Scotland
4 - Curved Ridge
5 - Anoch Eagach (sp?)
6 - CMD

England
7 - Striding Edge
8 - Edale to Downfall
9 Scafell by any route

Last but not least
Almost any day on the SW coast path - if only to provide a balance that you don't need to go into remote areas for exercise/adventure (and how easy all the rest are!). I'll nominate Marhamchurch to Tintagel

In reply to


I believe the clue is in the name.
Mountain Leader.
I don't recall much mountainous terrain on the SW coastal path.

To the OP
Go to Scotland. You are spoilt for choice but I would recommend you spend some time in the Cairngorms and Lochaber. Beautiful mountains in a beautiful part of the world!

In reply to Gone for good:




I believe the clue is in the name too, I just believe that the emphasis should be on 'Leader' or preferably teacher.

In reply to Eeyore:

Well then you obviously didn't read the post properly.
The question was 'what are the definitive walks an aspiring ML should walk?'.

In reply to Gone for good:

OK, read the post properly and suggest 10 or 20 walks that the OP wanted to hear about.

In reply to Welsh Kate:


This...

In reply to Kevin Woods:


And this...

In reply to timjones:


And this!

There are *no* walks all MLs should have walked.

In reply to MG:


There are but two in Scotland, with no need to venture further south...

As L Eeyore assumed, I'm not looking for a definitive list of what would be required to be an ML, more a list of classic walks that I could go and do (Not necessarily for my QMD's towards the award either), that during conversations feel like 'everyone' has done.

I'm aware of the requirements and know that being an ML is about ability and not just saying I've been to these places or ticking walks off lists. I am personally interested in what people consider the 'classic' routes so that when I am away in the regions named getting the QMD's required I could incorporate these walks in to my time there and experience these routes.

In hindsight is should have been worded differently, my mistake

In reply to JJSegarty:


L Eeyore is just Eeyore (with green L plate because he/she is still new here!).

In reply to Eeyore:

Ben Nevis via CMD via Glen Nevis and the halfway Lochain.
The Devils point, Cairn Toul and Sgorr an Lochain Uaine - via Derry Lodge.
Derry Cairngorm, Ben Macdui and Carn a Mhaim - via Derry Lodge.
Geal Charn A Mharconaich Beinn Udlamain and Sgairneach Mhor via Balsporran cottages
Bidean nam Bian and Stob Coire Sgreamhach via Glencoe
The Grey Corrie's including Stob Ban from Corriecholie.
The Mamores starting and ending in Kinlochleven - 4 munros en route
The Mamores starting and ending in Glen Nevis
4 munros en route
The Beinn a Ghlo round starting and ending in Blair Atholl
The South Glen Shiel Ridge from the Clunie Inn
The North Glen Shiel Ridge from the Clunie Inn
The five Sisters of Kintail

etc etc etc

All big days out. All quality mountain days.
All would meet the criteria of the OP.
I would imagine most MLs would have walked these hills.

In reply to JJSegarty:
I don't think the specific hill or route matters. Just try a visit several different upland areas and enjoy their massively varied terrain, the features, the wildlife, the weather, geology, local history etc... This is what makes them special or individually unique.

In reply to petestack:
Oops, It's been a while since I was last on here. Thanks for letting me know.

Also thanks for all the suggestions

In reply to Gone for good:



I'm fairly sure you are wrong. Happy to be proven wrong though - oft to pub now.

In reply to Gone for good:


Which four(s) would those be, then? (You can do the whole ridge or any sub-combo from either starting point!)

In reply to petestack:
Kinlochleven - Sgurr Elide Mor, Binnein Mor Binnein Beag, Na Gruagaichean.

Glen Nevis - An Gearanach to Sgurr a Mhaim#.
#It was a Munro when I did it !

In reply to Eeyore:


Good shout. There are days on the Pembrokeshire coast path that would serve too. The skills of a ML should be adaptable and transferable; and there's a lot of uphill on some bits of coast paths.

T.

In reply to JJSegarty:

A big day on the North Moor - Dartmoor.
In the clag.

Proper.

In reply to JJSegarty:

My preparation for ML assessment involved going out after work in the Lakes, in the dark and only if the weather was utterly filthy. We'd deliberately get totally lost, then have to relocate and find our way back down. On a couple of occasions things almost got out of hand - lightning, horizontal torrential rain, broken headtorch etc. Learning to cope and get yourself home safely in such conditions made the assessment feel reasonable by the time I was ready for it. Do some classic walks but also get yourself out of your comfort zone. Have fun!

In reply to Gone for good:


Useful clarification, because that round's by no means implicit from your earlier post. (For sure, Kinloch is probably the better starting point for that group, but most of my shorter Mamore link-ups from the village don't head all the way east.)


Sgurr a' Mhaim still is (it's Sgor an Iubhair that's not). And, yes, the so-called Ring of Steall is probably the most celebrated sub-round from the Glen, but you could just have easily meant from the Mullach to Sgurr a' Mhaim or Stob Ban to An Gearanach!

In reply to petestack:

I knew one of them was demoted but it was 1995 when I did that round and I forgot which one it was. Anyway, it was a great day out and one I hope to repeat sometime later this year.

In reply to Gone for good:

thanks, brought back some mamaries of great days oot, the loon is only three but i'm looking forward to him looking forward to doing these.

In reply to petestack:


? Fine, if you happy being ignorant of other areas!

In reply to JJSegarty:

Great thread idea. I know exactly what you mean.

I'd suggest the Wainwright book for the lakes. Loads in there. Cat Bells is the must do. Most people have done it as kids in school trips. Striding Edge. Blencathra.

All the various routes up Snowdon.

The three Yorshire peaks. All in one day or separately.

In reply to JJSegarty:

Plan trips based on your own motivations and you'll end up with stories of your own which may inspire those you chat with to try some hills other than the obvious classics.

Really, don't worry about what you should have done, just get out, enjoy and test yourself around the UK in all sorts of conditions.

And don't worry about the assessment if you've got the practice behind you. I had my worst epic to date while on my assessment and although it was messy, I feel sure that the way we dealt with it ultimately demonstrated unflappability and good decision making. I passed. Also, I've done far more "classics" since that assessment.

In reply to MG:


That's a pretty perjorative response to a more pragmatically-intended post! Given the range of fantastic terrain and paucity of formal National Parks up here, a NP-centric view of what to walk seems limited in a different, more 'southern' way. It's got nothing to do with ignorance or disinterest when no one person can hope to cover anything like the full breadth of human or geographical experience, but rather everything to do with the richness of what's available closer at hand from Galloway to Sutherland. Hence no need, not no point!

In reply to Gone for good:


In that case, why are they supposed to know about plant life and geology? That to me suggests that the qualification is more than just climbing mountains but is also about having a life and a personality and being able like to make intelligent conversation with their clients about wider aspects of the outdoors.

In reply to JJSegarty:

K2 and the North Face of the Eiger should be sufficient to kill any further conversation.....

In reply to petestack:

Well the OP was asking about knowledge and experience of areas. While you could probably get an ML while never leaving Glen Coe, I think a broad knowledge of upland areas is beneficial for the conversations the OP mentions. Just knowing Scotland would be limiting.

In reply to MG:


In terms of conversation and the ability to engage with clients the phrase "I've never done Crib Goch, how did you find it?" is far more valuable than a tale of your own trip.

A successful ML will need to know more about people than selected walking routes.

In reply to timjones:

I am sure that's true.

In reply to Andy Morley:


You may be surprised to learn that Flora exists in abundance on uplands and mountainsides and that each mountain has a geological tale to tell.

Anyway the OP asked for some recommendations for walks that MLs have done so that he can share bragging rights with his pals next time they are together.
I was merely pointing out that coastal paths aren't the same as mountainous terrain but hey what do I know?

In reply to danm:


Not sure you should reccomend doing that! Maybe just use your navigation skills to not get lost?

In reply to Eeyore:

This is the first time I've ever done all the things on a UKC forums 'top anything' list! I've even done a good chunk of the SW coast path (Marazion to St Ives in sections). Totally agree those are all routes you could have a good chat about although they are mostly well out of ML territory but of course that's not the point of this thread!

In reply to Gone for good:


That sounds like a particularly uncouth and unecessary interpretation of what he was asking. If I were in the way of being a client of someone with this qualification and perhaps paying to be taken out, I'd certainly want to go with someone who was well informed about the wider relevant areas of walking outdoors as well as the very narrow and specific aspects.

In reply to MG:


No, you couldn't! Different areas (not countries) are a requirement.


Disagree! And say again it's got nothing to do with ignorance or disinterest. Just plain, obvious fact about Scottish scope.

In reply to petestack:

That is not the case. Have you done much outside Scotland? There is nothing comparable to the Lakes or Dartmoor or quite a few other other areas. Thinking otherwise is just wrong. An ML, I think, would want to be able to have knowledgable conversations about a wide variety of areas with clients.

In reply to MG:


Not a great deal, no. Do you think they should take away my ML and WML tickets?


Did I say there was?


See above.


And I can, so what's your problem?

In reply to Andy Morley:

Well you should get that, after all the qualification should be evidence of knowledge of some of those wider aspects.

But then again you might get an arsehole like me who would want to drag you up and down ridges, up through gullies, entering remote corrie's and weaving routes through broken buttresses spending hour after hour on the move.
Enjoying the physical challenge.
Enjoying the panoramic views from up high.
Enjoying the feeling of satisfaction and sense of well being of having returned safely from another adventurous day in the hills.

In reply to petestack:

No but I think you might aim to extend your knowledge a bit.


Err yes.



I don't have a problem. I just think MLs should have knowledge of areas outside Scotland (or any other local area)

In reply to MG:


While I might agree that ideally we'd all know everywhere, I think you're mistaken to regard Scotland as a 'local area'.

In reply to MG:


Scotland is the 'local area' with 75% of the mountains in the British Isles. An ML in Scotland choosing not to go to Wales or England has only missed out on 12% of the mountains (the rest are in Ireland).

In reply to JJSegarty:

Another 10 for you, slightly different take on things to ensure there is no bragging going on!

1 - Any day you have changed your plans due to the weather - maybe consider East to West or vice versa in Scotland, should keep petestack happy
2 - Any day you have changed your plans due to injury/illness
3 - Any day you got lost and survived (without calling MR)
4 - Any day you forgot something important, like the Map, and made the best of the situation - although probably don't mention the time you arrived at the bivvy on a glacier in the Alps and realised you had left the stove behind
5 - Any day you have walked through a town following a 'green corridor' - canals and rivers are good for this
6 - Any day you went for a run/cycle/ski instead of a walk
7 - Any multi day walks using bothies
8 - Any multi day walks wild camping
9 - Any day you climbed at Stanage

And last but not least,

10- Any day you were stuck inside and spent your time bickering on UKC/UKH!

In reply to Gone for good:


Personally I want balance. Of course, with any outdoor activity, I want to be going out with someone who will get me through and back safely, if they're leading the enterprise and if things go wrong. But as I aim to enjoy the process, I want to go out with someone who's good company and who I'll enjoy being with.

It is possible to have both - it's not either like you either have amiable wallies or if you don't want them, it's got to be John Waynes. You can combine competence and social skills in the same person.

In reply to Gone for good:


If that's what you're after then using an ML is going to seriously dilute the sense of achievement

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

I'd query your areas (there is a lot of Wales and Penines) but regardless it isnt the area but character of the landscapes that would be missed. For example, the Kinder plateau is unique, even if quite small.

In reply to MG:

Welsh 3000s in a day.

Just a good walk over lots of terrain and can be done in differing styles.

Lends a bit of gravitas to a ML with only 21 QMDs

In reply to MG:


Have you been *everywhere*? Do you truly *know* everywhere? Have you done all the tops of the Monadh Liath? (No, I haven't!) Do you know what Ken Whyte and Iain Thow have done and Andy Hyams is close to doing? Do you know (if we need to talk about where the hills are) that there are currently listed 2185 'Simms' in Scotland, 224 in Ireland, 192 in England, 151 in Wales and 1 on the Isle of Man? Me, I hardly know the hills at all and have even said so on my blog...

'I thought I knew the hills after a lifetime spent among them, but really I don't... 'twas all just vanity, though I'm not yet sure how well I want to know the Monadh Liath! :-/'

http://www.petestack.com/blog/plotting-the-peaks.html

In reply to JFraser123:

Pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone is good preparation for the ML assessment, as is deliberately getting lost. Navigating from a to b is all very well, being able to relocate and get back on route or to safety when genuinely mislocated, without panicking, is something else.

Wouldn't recommend the lightning though - lightning is BAD.

In reply to Welsh Kate:



Which leads me back to why I mentioned a coastal walk from Marhamchurch to Tintagel. A 20 mile walk with over 5000 ft of ascent and due to a long lunch stop in Crackington Haven followed by an exploration of Boscastle, I ended up in near darkness without a torch and in torrential rain I found myself slithering around in mud only 2 foot from a 150 m sheer rock face. To cap it all I was in danger of being hit by lightning! and the thunder was scaring the dog.

You don't always need to be in the mountains to appreciate the knowledge you have gained from them.

In reply to petestack:
Umm no. So what? Although I do have a good knowledge of most upland areas in the UK, NI excepted.

All I am arguing is that an ML, to be a rounded leader, should aim to have experience of a broad selection of upland areas across the UK. I don't see why this is problematic for you.

In reply to MG:


I guess the point is that if you are based in Scotland and you've spent time in the Munros of the South West Highlands you aren't really going to see anything much different in terms of terrain in the Lakes. Obviously you will see more people and more shops and better paths and nicer towns.

Similarly when you've done the Glencoe and Glen Nevis Munros are you really going to see much completely new terrain by going to Snowdon? You'd be better off going to Skye or Torridon or the Cairngorms or if you were looking for something further afield then the Alps.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


The Lakes are distinct in the ways you say and others. There are much bigger differences between SWH and Dartmoor or the Pennines. Ditto with your other examples. Scotland is big but it doesn't have all (or even most) of the upland landscape types in the UK. I think knowledge and experience of most of these landscapes would make for a much more engaging ML, than someone who only knew two or three of them.

In reply to MG:

Is being able to relate your experience of the mountains to the experience/lifestyle of the client/the payee part of the award?

I don't know hence asking the question. It is an open question rather than just to you.

In reply to JJSegarty:

All regions of the U.K. have great upland and mountain areas and variety to build a good set of skills for ML. Your favourite area is very much influenced by the first places you went as a child. Arguments about where is better are not going to be answered here. It is very much a question of the heart. I just love being out in the mountains whether that's Scotland, Ireland, Wales, England , Europe, Canada, America, Africa etc. To suggest you can't be a good ML without leaving Scotland, without leaving Wales or without leaving England is ridiculous. MLs above all plan for and adapt to different scenarios. That includes different terrain types and locations.

In reply to Eeyore:

I am not sure (I am not an ML) but I think the award is primarily about safety with secondary aspect of knowledge and ability to educate. I am not suggesting MLa should only be awarded to those with extensive knowledge of different areas, just that if you have or want to be an ML, having such knowledge would be a good thing and something to aim for.

In reply to MG:

Thanks. You have pretty much summed up my view - and a view that I think the OP would agree with.

In reply to JJSegarty:

The idea behind the thread is to determine what are 'Classic' walks.

Up until the age of 30 I had never been up Snowdon. I'd lead people in the Peak, Black Mountains, Brecons, Dartmoor, Exmoor, and all over North Wales, just never had need to set foot on Snowdon. I still haven't done Nevis or Scafell.

It's not about what you need for ML, it's what walks would a mountain/hill walker be expected to have done.

It's a bit like the first question you ask a marathon runner being "Have you run London?" Quite a few runners haven't and many don't want to do London.

In reply to DancingOnRock:

So would you like to give the OP a top 10 list of 'up until you were 30'. The list might provide inspiration to the OP.


nb - no offense meant to anyone by posting this

In reply to JJSegarty:


It might sound a bit obvious, but why not look up the areas that the groups are talking about if they interest you. Digital mapping and the various forums will give you a grounding. Denied immediate gratification/access to the thing itself, the yearning to be there can lead to a imagining of them , to flying over them in your mind, a deepening love affair, a greater spatial awareness etc.

Your experience and understanding of the mountains is likely to be that much deeper by developing that inner curiosity, and the lengths you go to get there. Ticking off a bucket list which once finished may provide the illusion that you're a fully experienced rambling hiker, 'done it', seems rather superficial to me. It's all about the mindset with which you approach things. Understanding mountains rather than 'doing' them. OK, maybe the Cairngorm plateau and The Cuillin are so distinct in landform to make them worthy of in depth study if you choose.

Another thing. There is the common fallacy that, in ignorance of a subject, someone with a little knowledge about it can seem to be more experienced than they actually are. I guess that's why the criteria for ML is for 'quality' mountain days- whatever that means..

In reply to Eeyore:
I did give a few upthread.

In the Peak, the classics are Grindsbrook and Kinder edge, but in a long weekend up on Kinder you could cover the area quite well. Then there's the area around Buxton and over the Penenie way via Snake Pass.

I think the problem is 'classic walks' covers hundreds of walks. I've been in similar situations when a group I'm in seem to have been everywhere I haven't and vice versa.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

>

What? For navigation, keep the sea on your left and the land on your right ?

In reply to DancingOnRock:


I know you did and that is why I chose to reply to you - sorry if that is a problem but I'd rather talk to people who seem to understand me.

PS. The OP might choose to do a walk from Buxton to Three Shires Head if he/she ever finds themselves in the Peak with the weather being atrocious.

In reply to Eeyore:
Ha. No problem.

I'm not sure why days out have to be challenging or in atrocious weather.

I think there are a lot of aspiring hard men on this site.

What's wrong with a long gentle walk to a top, sit down and eat some sandwiches, watch the wildlife and enjoy the view for a few hours?

Enjoy the day, I gave up doing forced route marches a long time ago.

I went up to North Wales with a group and did the Carneau ring in November. One of the guys wanted to do 15miles. We split into two groups and three of us went down to the lake and sat and passed the time while the heros ticked off some more tops.

In reply to JJSegarty:
Get hold of copies of Richard Gilbert's Big Walks, Classic Walks and Wild Walks (or the 200 Challenging Walks compilation, but the individual books are better). That should cover off some pretty diverse, and challenging, terrain, at the same time as highlighting some of the most spectacular parts of these wonderful isles of ours.

In reply to JJSegarty:

You don't have to follow the crowd!

Some of the best days are the ones when no one else is around, you have to rely on your skills and you don't get that on the popular routes!
Study the map and the ground to find those more unique ways around the hills. It will give you more experience and your experience will be your own, rather than a carbon copy of everyone else's. In time, your knowledge will have greater depth than those who only know the standard routes.

In reply to DancingOnRock:


Is that the Carneddau?

In reply to JJSegarty:

If I was going to pick an "adventurous walker's top ten UK greatest hits", it'd be something like:
* Snowdon Horseshoe
* Cwm Bochlwyd Horseshoe (Tryfan North Ridge, Bristly Ridge, Gribin Ridge)
* Grisedale Horseshoe (Striding Edge, Helvellyn, Fairfield, St Sunday Crag)
* Scafell Pike from Borrowdale
* Aonach Eagach
* Ben Nevis via CMD Arete
* Cairn Toul - Braeriach Traverse
* Beinn Eighe (Beinn Alligin or Liathach also acceptable)
* As much of the Black Cuilin as you're happy with technically
* Suilven

On the other hand, I'd generally rather talk to someone who just enjoys the outdoors and has spent their time really pursuing the stuff that interests them - whether it's super long moorland endurance challenges or multi-day bothy expeditions or hard scrambles or whatever - than someone who's got a full CV of well known routes ticked off. Assuming they've got the skills and experience to do the job, obviously.

In reply to JJSegarty:

Have you ever noticed that as soon as a thread appears that has "ML" in it people feel the need to criticise it or get into a debate about what is/isn't within remit or tell you what you should/shouldn't be doing in your consolidation?

I'm in much the same position as you, completed my training last year and working on building experience so I thought it was a pretty interesting topic.

Before anyone goes clicking on my profile and telling me all the stuff I haven't done and griping about it - I don't use UKC to log my walks and mountain tops, OK?

I'd fully recommend the Nantlle Ridge as an awesome walk in Snowdonia. Similarly a traverse of the Glyders if you haven't done it yet.

In reply to JJSegarty:

I know it won't help much, but I'd suggest that you don't concentrate too hard on doing the walks everyone else does. Theres no harm in doing them, but its good to get in some walks that fewer people do, if nothing else this will give you a good subject for the chat!
So:
-Scotland
Kintail: 5 Sisters, 3 Brothers, and also Forcan Ridge, you can do them all on separate days, or combine the sisters and brothers into one hell of a monster day).
Aonach Eagach in Glen Coe
Blabheinn on Skye (may be more of a mountaineering route rather than ML, but still shows good experience)
An Teallach in Fisherfields (North Scotland)
-Wales:
Rhynogs (just south of Snowdonia)
Snowdonia: Snowdon Horseshoe, the Glyders (include Tryfan and Y Garn if you have the energy), the Carneddau,
-England:
DARTMOOR!!! Most people ignore it ("not high enough blah blah blah, but one of the hardest place in the UK to navigate especially in the fog)
Peak District: park in Edale, up Grinsbrooke Clough, onto Kinder plateau, down Jacobs ladder.

Everyone will suggest something different. Choose an area, look at the maps, find something that looks interesting, do the walk, let us know!

In reply to antmorgan1991:

And then you list walks loads of others do rather than walks less travelled.

In reply to Orgsm:

Hmm...bugger! good point, I guess they're popular for a reason!