UKC

What's the best way to tie 4 people on to 1 rope, for easy scrambling. In this case the rope is only for emergency purposes and gives the users slightly more confidence on exposed ridges. The two poeple at each end are simple enough to tie, but how about the two in the middle? I don't want to use a sling or a harness waist belt. As a rule I have the two less experienced peolpe in the middle of the rope with the more experienced at each end guiding them.

In reply to PizzaExpress:

Never done it but alpine butterfly is a multi directional loading knot and therefor good for tieing into the middle of the rope, however, in all instruction i have been given harnesses have been used. although i suppose you could go old school and bowline round the waist, i wouldn't like to fall off

In reply to PizzaExpress:

If you are not using slings or harnesses then it's gonna hurt if anyone falls/slips.
Tying around the body is not best practice really

At the very least I'd think you'd need to utilise slings as makeshift harnesses.

In reply to PizzaExpress:

No chance of using two ropes? 4 on one on rock would be hard to manage I imagine

In reply to PizzaExpress:

It's going to hurt however you tie in if you fall while scrambling!

If you want to tie people into the middle of the rope leaving them some freedom to move and without harnesses: Create two large bights of rope (~2m long) using alpine butterflies, overhands or fig8s where you want them on the rope. Use these to form a bowline (on both strands) round the waist.

Or travel in pairs, novice leading, might be faster and less disaterous if 1 person slips.
jk

In reply to PizzaExpress:

I'd use harnesses, but you could also use a bowline on a bight, or an alpine butterfly. Harnesses better though.
Be warned - last month a mate and I took 2 groups scrambline and we had one rope of 4 and one of 3, and the 4 found it very slow going. Also if person 2 slips on a rope of 4 and unbalances or knocks off persons 3 and 4 as well, person 1 can't hold them and all will fall, so don't forget frequent gear! (I was pulled off when person 2 fell on my rope - my own fault, I should have had gear in, but didn't). If it's too easy to need gear, you need to be thinking about whether it's wise to rope up at all.

(Personally, I wouldn't. I would have been quite happily soloing the route in question, but I was terrified leading a rope of 3 simply due to consequences of falls. I've also been involved in a winter climbing fall, unroped because there was no gear to speak of. If I'd been roped to my partner I doubt we'd still be here)

In reply to PizzaExpress:

Easy. Take them on something even 'easier' to build confidence. You should only be roping on an exposed/loose Grade 2, or a Grade 3. And at all times WITH a harness. My m8 ended up hanging upside down on a Grade 3. Imagine all your weight on a rope cutting into your waist/ribcage? Fcuk that!

HD.

In reply to PizzaExpress:

sounds like you just want a "confidence rope" here. you're probably best off using the most simple system you can.

-I don't want to use a sling or a harness waist belt.

you could use proper harnesses in which case use a re-threaded overhand on the bight through the harness then backclip the remainder of the bight into the harness.

If you're just going to use the rope then you need to either step into somthing on the bight ( any knot that doesn't tighten if you pull) or a bowline on the bight would be best if you have enough rope.

- As a rule I have the two less experienced peolpe in the middle of the rope with the more experienced at each end guiding them

I'd say this was the best method, on an easy scramble its easy ground but generally the consequenses of a slip are major. Keep the rope fairly tight between you and the novices - that way slips don't become major, the fall is caught before the novice goes anywhere.

For more info on tying in try looking in a petzl catalougue, they're very informative on rope techniques.

In reply to PizzaExpress:

So its easy scrambling on an exposed ridge? and the rope is for 'emergency use to give the user confidence' sounds like text book ML remit jargon. and if thats the case and your an ML holder then technically, if you were working and getting paid you would be outside the remit using a rope with a group of four on a ridge.

No disrespect but more importantly would you know what to do if any one of your group, or all 3 of them fell or got blown off said exposed ridge?

This may be seen as a harsh comment and others might say that its good to ask advice, which it is, But if you need to ask about roping a party up on an exposed ridge to try and safeguard them, then you do not have the experience or skill and knowledge of the techniques needed to be able to do this safely and should not take your group there.

Don't take them on that route, choose something that you and they can still have a safe fun day on but one that you can manage their safety on much better without having to tie everyone in.

Mark Handford

In reply to Snowdonia Adventures:

Yikes, Looks like the boring police have got on the case. Its only an easy scramble hes talking about....

I think the OP better not bother with the rope and hope for the best since its clearly the rope thats the issue, or hire snowdonia adventures of course...

In reply to PizzaExpress: Could the rope give people too much confidence?

In reply to RiverRatJimmy:


Definately. I'd agree with Mark that the rope isn't really doing anything practical in this scenario and may ultimately drag all 4 scramblers to their untimely doom.

In reply to PizzaExpress:

use a shunt each for middle 2

In reply to Jamie B.:

Hi Jamie, how's things north of the real climbing scene! roll on winter eh?

In reply to Northern Alliance Commander:

People ask for advice N.A.C and my advice is 'if its such an easy scramble why does it need protecting with a rope? a very simple and logical answer.
A rope could be used where your friends are a little bit anxious about their environment and want the confidence it may bring ( whether the danger is real or perceived is neither here nor there), However if you are on a ridge with four people on a rope, unless you have had extensive practice the rope could be much more of a danger to all.
So either don't rope up ( and put your friends outside their sane comfort zone) or take your friends out to something a little bit easier, but still challenging and then you can all get progressively more confident and better skilled as the years go by.

Its not a case of being 'the boring police' but giving honest advice and hoping that people make the best informed decisions matched to their personal climbing/walking/mountaineering ability.

Working on a very busy MRT highlights the 'TRAIL Magazine' generation who unfortunately don't even get to the stage where they run before they can walk, as they simply fall.

Mark

In reply to PizzaExpress:
Ignore those who reckon you need a harness etc. You really only want protection for a fall and round the waist will do. The comfort issue isn't important as you are not after hanging belays. An alpine butterfly is the knot designed for this. A waist tie in worked for many years and has the virtue of simplicity which may well be the main issue for nivices who may not be reliable when tieing into other thing.

In reply to PizzaExpress:
For an easy scramble (grade 1 is easy - and best described as A rough climb or exposed walk. The occassional hard step where you will certainly be required to use your hands. Route finding will be obvious. Ropes will only be required by the extremely nervous. )
I normally have the rope packed in the top of my rucksack ready to aid and assist and the odd difficult rocky pitch as required. However on the whole spotting each other up the rocky steps is quicker and a lot more gratifying and rewarding.

To help you please check the grades of your proposed route and compare that with the information on the following page
http://tinyurl.com/2teufx

In reply to mattsccm:
"The comfort issue isn't important as you are not after hanging belays. An alpine butterfly is the knot designed for this."
Not sure if this a troll. A knot designed for this, would love to see this in a book, website, anything!

What route are they planning is my question? One persons exposed ridge, could anothers hands in pockets, ranging from something like Devils ridge up to Skye ridge.

The logical answer is, if you are thinking you need to protect a potential fall then that is what you protect. Harness, helmet, rope, rock protection if competents moving together, if novices leader led short roping.

It's less fun?, or 'fun police'? may be, but at least when you set off you know you will make it home, regard of any gusts of wind, novices slipping etc..

In reply to summo:


I assume they're tackling japanese route up the north ridge of the megapurna rated ED70. This 75,000 foot mountain has a savege side and can turn nasty really quickly so make sure you're well prepared!