UKC

Reading another thread http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=258329 I've been wondering how should it be actually best decided what country somebody belongs to?
By place of birth or by nationality of their parents or maybe both? What if somebody has gained citizenship of another country by choice? Should people be allowed to change citizenships and under what circumstances?

What if the Italian in the other thread would have gained British citizenship before his deed? Would that be enough for those who ask for him to be deported to a country he has no ties with other than a passport to let him stay in the country where he has been born and raised?

Not discussing legal reality, just pondering

In reply to violentViolet: Im British but was born in Germany, Im British because my father and mother are British and because I was born in the British military hospital. Under no circumstances am i lgaly or culturaly anything other than British.

Maybe it makes some people feel better if a nonce is a foreigner but it shouldnt I think the amount we export we must ahve a trade surplus.

In reply to Fawksey:
"Under no circumstances am i lgaly or culturaly anything other than British.
Maybe it makes some people feel better if a nonce is a foreigner but it shouldnt I think the amount we export we must ahve a trade surplus."

Makes one proud to be British!!

In reply to violentViolet:

I suspect there is no hard and fast set of rules, but the following would seem common sense

1) You take on nationality of your parents regardless of country of birth, but see 3 below

2) If your parents are of mixed nationality then I suggest you have a choice of one or the other which you have to make when applying for a passport. If however your parents have taken on nationality of the country in which they and you now reside then you must follow suit with possibly a proviso that for your generation only, not your children you can opt for one of your parent's original nationalities on reaching 21

3) If you reside permanently in a country in which you were not born and is not a country of your parents nationality you can apply for nationality of that country and subject to their rules of citizenship.

In reply to Trangia:

Is point 3) in your opinion just a formality?

In reply to violentViolet:

if people live somewhere long enough it makes sense that they can swap to that citizenship and i think that should take precedence.

place of birth vs parents is trickier since what happens if parents are on international assignment, eg military families.

In reply to dissonance:
what if they commit a crime?

In reply to violentViolet:

I think in most countries it is a formality. My son, who is British, has lived and worked in South Africa for about 18 years and is applying formally for citizenship which will give him the right to vote, but he must apply, it is not automatic.

In reply to violentViolet: I would suggest if someone commits a crime, then apply the law, when theyve served their punishment let them go. Its not like Italy created him and therfore deserves him. Just a piece of shit that we as Europeans, human beings have to deal with.

In reply to violentViolet:


send them to a colony - worked in the past
admittedly not many left but i am sure one or two can be found.

In reply to Trangia:
>... has lived and worked in South Africa for about 18 years and is applying formally for citizenship which will give him the right to vote, but he must apply, it is not automatic.

It may not be now, but when I lived there I was (unfortunately) given citizenship.

In reply to violentViolet:

There is also the english law concept of "domicile" - which is a rather old concept and different to citizenship/nationality or simple residence. You see it most talked about in terms of people abusing the rather advantageous tax rules in the UK which apply to individuals who are tax resident here (a much shorter term concept) but are domiciled abroad.

Domicile is basically where you see your true home. So, if you are essentially British but go to, say, the USA and live and work there for many years, but still think of yourself as a Brit, then you are domiciled here in law (even though you may not have stepped foot in the UK for decades).

Everyone is born with a "domicile of origin". Usually this is where you are born but, in fact, it's the domicile of your father when you are born. So, if your father were an immigrant to the UK (from, say, Poland - being topical), you would be born with a Polish domicile. And that could stick with you even if you live in the UK for many years, potentially for life if you still think of yourself as Polish. It's irrelevant that Poland may not have the same of similar concept from an English law perspective.

Ignoring some minor complexities, once you are an adult, you can only change your domicile by clearly abandoning your domicile of origin and taking on a "domicile of choice" elsewhere. Typically you will look at where the individual's social and economic ties are strongest. The onus of proof is on the person claiming the change in domicile. This means that it's hard (from a tax planning perspective) to show you have lost your UK domicile when you emigrate - so even though you become non resident you may remain UK domiciled for always. Conversely, if you are coming to the UK, it's very hard for the Revenue to show that you have lost your domicile of origin (eg Poland) and have taken on a domicile of choice in the UK.

All very interesting

I suppose my point was that I believe we rarely use domicile in the UK now except in tax planning. Maybe we should use it a bit more. It's a little like the infamous "cricket test" but rather more rigorous! You may even acquire a British passport & citizenship and still remain non-UK domiciled (so you can see the subtle difference between the concepts).

In reply to violentViolet:

Surely your 'nationality' depends on the country stamped on your passport, though I prefer to be 'myself' rather than accept bureacratic uniformity of being what they decide.
As to accepting the place of birth - it has been wisely pointed out that were you to have been born in a 'fish box' - you are not automatically a fish.

In reply to JonC: Ahh the cricket test... but who do I choose to support if I hold mulitple citzenships & mulitple passports??*

Cheers
LD (British, Canadian and (almost) Australian)



*correct answer is whoever is winning

In reply to violentViolet:

A more interesting question is whether people should be able to buy and sell citizenship. Citizenships clearly have value. A market in citizenships would be an excellent feedback mechanism for individual national governments, as fluctuations in prices should reflect a broad range of economic and intangible perceptions of a country's future prospects. For example, personally I'd sell being British for less than being Canadian.

In reply to Trangia:


No you don't. Children of Finnish men have no automatic right Finnish citizenship, and if I remember right this is even if they are born in Finland. If your mother is Finnish, you get citizenship regardless. Clearly the government doesn't want the Russian or Thai "temporary girlfriends" turning up at the airport saying 'my child is Finnish so please educate them and give me permanent leave to remain'. I find this distasteful in the extreme.

In reply to tobyfk:

The relative value of the two might be dependent on your personal wealth or dodginess of your business connections? Is there a comparison to "Chelski" in Toronto for instance?

In reply to violentViolet:
I'm African

born in South Africa, grew up there but have 2 passports, SA and Irish.

In reply to JonC:
the law of domicile is old but not old fashioned. Probably one of its most widespread application is in family and matrimonial proceedings in determining what law should apply to an individual

and to the marriage

In reply to TobyA:
the automatic right to British citizenship has been removed as well, irrespective of whether your parents are British or not

In reply to violentViolet:
I was born in New Zealand to British parents so hold both British and New Zealand passports. I've lived most of my life here in the UK and would count myself British, but I look forward to going back to live in New Zealand with my wife, who will be able to claim N.Z. nationality as I legally count as a N.Z. citizen.

In reply to violentViolet:

I may be old fashioned but I like the idea of a social contract between someone who comes to live in a country and the society of that country. Definitely the case is different when someone has earned the right to citizenship there by good behaviour, participation etc

That is not to say that perhaps action could be taken against someone who is in fundamental breach of that "contract"
by commiting a very serious crime


my wife is German by the way, so I'm not a Euro bashing sun reader

In reply to TobyA:


Indeed ... plus any number of other more mundane/ subjective factors. But the traded price would still be informative.

Many countries do make it possible to buy citizenship, usually via an initial 'investor' visa then the passport itself after a period of residency. Rationally they should therefore permit citizens to sell their citizenships too.

In reply to violentViolet:

Citizenship is a legal relationship with a state, so you have to fulfil their conditions and sometimes, as in my case, be bothered standing in various queues to apply. Nationality is more complicated because it’s culturally based – but the state still tries to barge in and define it as . . . a legal relationship with a state.
My son has 3 citizenships (UK, Poland, EU) and two nationalities – Polish and English, because he’s growing up within those cultures – a use of ‘nationality’ based on reality rather than legal BS.

In reply to dissonance:

What have the Falklands beat us in cricket in 200 years time?

In reply to Witkacy:

Is there actually such a thing as EU citizenship? In a stand-alone sense?

In reply to tobyfk:

There is such a thing but it's not supposed to 'stand alone'.

In reply to Trangia:

My sister was born in Canada although my parents are both British. She has dual citizenship, i.e., she has citizenship rights in both countries. She has a Canadian birth certificate and a British passport, although she has the right to get a Canadian passport too without forfeiting the British one if she so desires.

My understanding is that this kind of arrangement is common when a child is born outside the country of the parents' origin. However, in most cases, the dual rights are lost when the child hits the age of majority and they must choose to become a national of one or the other. Canada appears to be the exception to the rule as my sister is now 24 and still has full dual rights.

In reply to TobyA:

That's quite extreme. Countries like Malaysia, Brunei, Japan and Thailand also have quite strict citizenship rules, some of them could be argued as racist. But not as extreme as that - you can apply for or are elegible for citizenship if you're born there or child of a national of that country. It's usually one or the other.

In reply to kathrync:

Not the only exception, I've got an American and British passport and I don't have to forfeit either. American rules are different to British rules - if you were born there you automatically have nationality.

In reply to kathrync: No, you can keep dual citizenship. I coyuld apply for another citizenship I'm eligible for, for example, and not renounce my current citizenship.

Where it does get complicated is if someone has two passports, travels on one of them, and get into trouble abroad. The country who's passport they did not travel on, can in some cases not help them out, or help them less, have restrictions on what they do. It depends what happens but is worth travelling on the passport of the country you think is most likely to help (or least likely to get you in trouble too!)

In reply to Anonymous:
For me personally the wish to obtain British citizenship has a lot to do with wanting to be able to vote. I live here permanently and pay the same taxes, so why should I be disenfranchised?

Re "earning citizenship". Surely someone who has come to a country at very young age and has been brought up in this country is more a product of the society of this country rather than of the country of origin, independent of how good or bad his conduct is?

In reply to violentViolet:

but can't you vote? You simply have to be on the electoral register. My wife votes and she is still a German national

In reply to Anonymous:

I can only vote in local elections, not in the general elections. However I'm entitled to vote in German general elections but not in the local ones. Any elections to do with the EU I have to choose in which country I want to vote.

In reply to rock waif:

my children are dual nationality. All of the paperwork says that if they want to become UK citizens they have to choose at 18.

British born fathers cannot apply for a UK passport for a child unless married. Only the mother can apply if the couple are unmarried. If the mother is not British and they are not married then neither can even apply for a UK passport even though the child may have UK citizenship.

Of course dual nationality can be recognised by other states, but not by UK courts for people who become British nationals

In reply to violentViolet:

Would that be because you are not domiciled here? I suppose my wife changed her domicile by marrying

In reply to violentViolet:

Can foreign nationals vote?

Irish citizens resident here have the same voting rights as British citizens
European Union citizens resident here can vote at local government elections and European Parliamentary elections. They cannot vote in UK Parliamentary elections
Citizens of Commonwealth countries and British Dependent Territories resident here have the same voting rights as British citizens
People who are not British, Irish, European Union, Commonwealth or British Dependent Territory citizens cannot vote in the UK


This is from http://www.salford.gov.uk/council/elections/electionsfaq.htm#can_foreign but isn't just restricted to foreign nationals in Salford, but the whole of the UK

In reply to Anonymous:

I find this totally unfair and backwards. On what grounds should a child be less related to its father than its mother, just because they're not married?

In reply to Anonymous: when do you mean it would be recognised by UK courts?

In reply to violentViolet:

I don't know, but (confession time) I could not even apply for my son's passport till we got married.

I'm beginning to wonder if our local council has been sending out voting papers incorrectly now ..

wouldn't surprise me as their council tax department is completely incompetent

In reply to rock waif:

if a legal case involved a test of nationality

In reply to Anonymous: so you mean in cases where you get convicted of something that results in a custodial sentence, or say, in cases where parents split up and one parent wants to live abroad and take the kids.

In reply to Anonymous: sorry, I am just remembering that you're right about that, having to chose.

I suppose I'd rather be another nationalality other than British. It's not a passport than has the same effect abroad, anymore. Not really seen as neutral any more.

For example, John Simpson travels on an Irish passport, not a British one, as he reckons he'll get more help from the Irish if in trouble abroad.

In reply to rock waif:
I think that the majority of cases are about custody etc

mind you if you look at govt websites there are a lot of contradictions

as there were in the documents that came with the pssport applications - that was some years ago - hopefully they are clearer now!

In reply to Anonymous:


They can now - I checked when my first child was born. The law was changed maybe five years ago. I still haven't done it because it was complicated and very expensive and sounded like basically the home sec him/herself has to approve it, but my kids would have qualified if I had paid up. As it was, getting them Finnish passports didn't seem to make much difference as its all EU. Me and the missus will probably get married eventually and then they'll get them easier. I'll make sure they have a passport before they're 18 so they can avoid conscription here if they want.

In reply to violentViolet:

I hope then you vote for whichever party in Germany has lead the march against the incredibly restrictive citizenship laws that has kept Turks as "Turkish" despite both them and their parent having been born in Germany!

I vote locally and in EU election in Finland, but general elections in the UK. This is good, because to be honest Finnish politics is really really dull.

In reply to Anonymous: Thank you for the replies!

In reply to TobyA:

a good thing, our oldest is 8 now and was under a year when we married - I did write to our MP in protest!

In reply to Lurking Dave:


Or the Rugby test... I believe England is playing the US first up in the WC not too far in the future. Like the US have a chance - although at the rate England is going...

Jenn (US and Brit)

In reply to JonC: re: domicile and tax. It's calculated, by the UK at least, according to how much time you spend abroad. There are quite specific figures but I can't remember what they are off-hand.

If you spend more than, for example, 120 days a year out of the UK you don't pay tax there. They've got all sorts of caveats for people who travel a lot to different destinations (instead of spending the full period out of the UK in one place).

The Americans, on the other hand, charge US nationals tax even if they spend no time there at all. The rate is lower and the threshold higher, but they still charge so US nationals abroad pay tax twice.

In reply to Bob Hughes: But there are exceptions - I don't live in the UK but am considered UK resident for income tax (I work for a EU institution but am on secondment from a Scottish government agency & receive my salary in pounds sterling into my UK bank account)

This is to my advantage as tax in the UK is less than in France but does cause complications at times & I have had to explain to the French authorities why I've paid no tax several times

In reply to Bob Hughes:

Yes, but only if you make over something like $80,000 p.a. - so no worries for me!!

In reply to Bob Hughes:

It also depends on what reciprocal agreements there are, I think. I don't have to pay any tax in Germany because Germany has an agreement with the UK. But it's more complicated for foreign nationals outside such agreements.