UKC

We're in the process of having our bathroom done, including floor tiles instead of carpet. I'm toying with the idea of fitting electrical heating under the tiles. Would be pleased to hear your experience, advice, warnings, etc.

Many thanks.

In reply to BPT@work:

Don't really think they are nessessary where you won't be standing on the tiles for long periods of time. For something like Spas and things yes, but pointless for a home if you ask me where you come out the bath, dry and leave the bathroom.

In reply to Milesy:

We have an electrically heated floor in our bathroom and I think BPT is right, we had it on a timer, but the reality is it doesn't really get used.

In reply to BPT@work:

My parents have it in their shower room, it seems to work OK though I don't like it that much because I don't like the floor being that hot, prefer a towel rail or similar (which is more practical for hanging towels on!)

Only real warning I'd give rather than that matter of preference is that (coming from a friend who has it throughout his flat) electric underfloor heating is a really expensive way to space-heat - if you have gas central heating have a radiator as well unless your house is really well insulated and it'll just be a comfort thing.

Neil

In reply to Milesy: Underfloor heating isn't just for heating the floor. It is also for heating the room.

To OP: it depends on the size of your bathroom and wether you will have any other heating ie heated towel rail.

I also think that when you turn the central heating off during the summer that on cooler days it is nice to have a warmer bathroom.

Ages ago we did up a house, ended up putting electric underfloor heating in a downstairs room where there wasn't a good place to put rads. We did put a heated towel rail fed from the central heating in the bathroom. looking back on it I think we should have put in electric underfloor heating in the bathroom as well.

The underfloor heating was easy to lay, though it needed an electricien to wire it up. Think you need a part p certificate.

In reply to BPT@work: We have it in our place (installed by people who did the house up). Rarely use it as takes ages to heat up for limited usage. The cheap solution was to buy 2 big floor mats to avoid cold feet in winter.

It is probably not helped by the fact that the thermostat (cheap one based in the box rather than integrated into the heating elements) is outside the bathroom; presumably for building regs so its impossible to get the temp right.

In reply to BPT@work:

Yes, absolutely. But beware, once you have it in the bathroom you'll want it throughout the house.

The above poster mentions the amount of time it takes to heat up. Well, why turn it of? It's incredibly cheap - especially a small area like a bathroom. Alternatively, the system where the tiles are glued directly on top of the cables (instead of over a screed) heats up really quickly.

In reply to BPT@work: Don't know about the practicalities, but I've been in hotels with heated bathroom floors and it was fantastic.

Not better than taking a warm towel off a lovely heated towel radiator.

In reply to JTM:

"It's incredibly cheap - especially a small area like a bathroom"

Er, wha? Electric heating is about the most expensive type (crap storage heaters on Economy 7 excepted).

Underfloor heating using hot water is very nice but also outrageously expensive to put in (the flat we had in Switzerland had that and it was wonderful).

Neil

In reply to BPT@work: Just get a bit of old carpet and put it on top of the tiles. Then you won't have cold feet!

In reply to EeeByGum:

or buy some slippers.

In reply to EeeByGum:

Or a mat!

In any case I don't see why people seem to hate carpet in bathrooms, it's fine so long as you clean it regularly with a Vax or similar. My parents always had it rather than tiles and it's nice and warm on the feet.

Neil

In reply to BPT@work:

wait....you're getting RID of the carpet in your bathroom!!

In reply to Neil Williams:
>

A wet ufh system is about the same price as a electric system to install in a small room like a bathroom but lots cheeper to run google uk underfloor heating in Sheffield

In reply to Neil Williams:

OK, maybe in the UK - I don't know. Our chalet is heated by electric underfloor heating. It's on all the time (on a thermostat, obviously) from about November till May. The outside temps are often down to -20C. The total electric bill for the house - including heating - never exceeds €1000 > 1100 P/A. That's twenty odd years we've been here, so not a one off. The great advantage over 'crap storage heaters' is, as you've found, that it heats the whole fabric of the house and not just the air above waist level. Out of interest, how much would it cost to leave the heating on set at say 18 > 20°C in a bathroom? Let's say a small heated area of about one square metre?

In reply to JTM:

Is electricity way cheaper there (France, if I read it right) than here (UK) I guess? Perhaps because of the large amount of nuclear?

Don't know figures I'm afraid, and it will depend on insulation. I do know that in the UK electric heating is extremely expensive to run compared with gas.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:


Well it's so long since I've lived in the UK, I don't know the answer to that, but I imagine it must be, and I'd guess that nuclear is the reason.

In reply to BPT@work:

we put it in our bathroom a couple of years ago

it heats the room much more evenly than a radiator - during the cold days of winter the bathroom feels different to other rooms heated by radiators, more like walking into a room on a summer day

it doesn't cost much to run - the heating area compared to a radiator is much bigger, so you don't need to run it as hot to heat the room to the same temperature

it does take time to heat up, but its on a timer with a thermostat sensor in the floor

our cat loves it

In reply to rogersavery: +1 the wife insisted for our ensuite extension that it was worth it for the relatively small extra cost. I was dead against it, lost the argument, but have to admit I now quite like it. Its on a timer 2hr morning and 2hrs evening as thats the time we'll use it the most and in winter its great.

In reply to BPT@work:

We have a thick felt-backed vinyl on our wooden floors so they don't feel cold. However I can't think of anything worse or more miserable than a cold ceramic or terracotta floor tile, it would be worth having the electric heating just to take the chill off.

In reply to BPT@work:

Many thanks to everyone who took the time to comment. I really appreciate your contributions.

In reply to Neil Williams:


I dare you to lift the carpet and see the state of the floor boards beneath. When you do, you'll see why carpeted bathrooms is a skanky idea!

In reply to BPT@work:
Until you've had underfloor heating you will never know how great it is. When I did a complete refurb two years ago I installed wet UFH throughout and I hope to never have another house without it again.

In reply to Fraser:

Assuming it to be proper waterproof bathroom carpet why would you expect a problem?

(I figure you mean rotten floorboards due to water leaking through?)

Neil

In reply to rogersavery:
"it doesn't cost much to run - the heating area compared to a radiator is much bigger, so you don't need to run it as hot to heat the room to the same temperature"

I'd reconsider that statement.

Assuming a closed system, heated uniformly, it takes the same amount of energy to heat that space to a set temperature no matter how you do it. Heating a space more uniformly by underfloor heating will likely cost you more than heating the space by conventional means because you will heat every little corner of the room that would otherwise have been left cold.

If I were installing a system, my first approach would be to use a wet system plumbed to the central heating. Unfortunately, this is often not possible due to the increase in floor level as a result of insulation and coverings. In this case electric is OK but I would still have an alternative heating source. Heating a room to a comfortable temperature just from a floor would require the floor to be quite warm or on for a long time as the as the coverings aren't that great at conducting the heat to the rest of the room (unlike a big metal radiator).

In reply to Davvers: Agree with you. We had it installed and only used it once. We have a radiator and heated towel rail so it's not required for general heating. Also, hardly spend anytime in bathroom barefoot unless in shower or bath.

I would definitely save the cash or spend on something else (like a instant boiling water tap in the kitchen...best home improvement ever)

In reply to gethin_allen:

UFH works by radiation and typically heats a room to the required living height whereas radiators work by convection and heat the room top down. This makes a difference.

In reply to DDDD:

Radiators also work by radiation. There's a clue in the name. Most heaters use convection and radiation in practice.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:
WRT central heating the name radiator is a bit of a misnomer and should really be called a convector.

In reply to Neil Williams:

This is a classic GCSE physics question, draw a diagram and describe how a room is warmed by a radiator. Firstly, heat from the hot liquid in the the radiator is conducted through the metal body of the radiator, this is then either radiated to surrounding objects or to the air around the radiator which then becomes less dense, rising and forming a convection current to convect the heat around the room.

In reply to gethin_allen:


In our little Provencal house we have electric UF in one room. The room is 16 square metres of which 10 square metres have heating cables. The ceiling is well insulated but the room has four thick stone walls which must act like a heat sink. The ceiling is quite high as it's under a mono pitch roof, 2.5m > 3.5m. Despite this, to achieve room temperature of 20°C, the thermostat shows that the floor heat is nearly always at about 23°C. If the ceiling was lower and the walls insulated I'd imagine that the floor temperature would be lower, no?

In reply to DDDD:

Isn't the term "convector" used to describe typically electric heaters that work by drawing cold air in at the bottom, heating it and blowing it (by way of the principle that hot air rises above cold) out of the top, circulating a convection current around the room, though? Those heat pretty much only by convection.

Radiators don't do that to the same extent, though they do do it (which is why putting them under windows causes air movement and is a good thing, AIUI).

Neil

In reply to JTM:
If your ceiling was lower your overall room volume would be lower so you would be heating less air and also losing less heat because your wall surface area would also be reduced. At which point if you have a thermostat in the room your floor would heat less and be cooler.
Do you keep your heated floor on all the time?

In reply to gethin_allen:

Yes, it's on all the time, thermostat set at 20°C. I know when it switches on and off as it clicks. It seems that as long as it's not too cold outside then it might switch on once an hour. In other rooms there are electric 'radiators' which, when on, switch on and off every 20 seconds or so, which pisses me off and can't be very good. I don't seem to be able to stop them, no matter what temp I set them to. Am I doing something wrong?

In reply to gethin_allen:
With UFH it's more than just about the physics as human perception comes into play. The temperature profile is warm to cold from floor to ceiling and it is accepted that this makes a more liveable environment, so commonly the room stats can be set lower than in wall radiator central heating environments. I run my room stats at 18degC and people I know set their central heating stats to higher. I'd be interested to know what others set theirs to as well.

In reply to BPT@work:
An alternative worth considering is Amtico or Karndean. You can get it to look like any thing from ceramic to wood but is made of plastic so waterproof, indestructible and warm to touch. Also has a textured surface so much less sloppy than files when wet.
It cost a fair bit if you get it fitted by a registered installer but you do then get a guarantee of something like 25 years.
Alternatively you can buy the tiles from the Internet and do it yourself. It is pretty easygoing fit as you can just cut it with a knife and being in tile sized pieces is much easier to handle than link or carpet

In reply to vark:

As in lino tiles? I have lino in my bathroom and I hate it, it's going when I get round to it. Not sure what will replace it though.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:
No it is very different to Lino.

In reply to BPT@work:

few thing I'd like to say about this type of heating:

1)The desired temperature in a bathroom that you would want to be quite warm when you get out of a bath/shower. You stepping out of a warm area and going into a comparatively colder area. The temperature of a underfloor heating system is relativly colder than a heating system with radiators. Because the surface area of the floor is greater than that of a radiator. The temerature increase over a large area is lower to create the desired warmth in the room. This is great in most rooms but as the temperature differences are greater ion a bathroom I don't think it'll be a good idea.

2)We installed underfloor heating in our conseratory and it doesn't really heat the room to the extent that I would want to get undressed in there during the winter.

3)During the big freeze a couple of years ago, I heard that another electrician who uses the same electrical wholesaler as me had underfloor heating installed in his house. during that cold spell he apprenently spent a fortune on his electricity bill to heat his house. (this is hear say so take it with a pinch of salt)

If I were you, if you have a central heating system, use a radiator

In reply to RichardP:

"3)During the big freeze a couple of years ago, I heard that another electrician who uses the same electrical wholesaler as me had underfloor heating installed in his house. during that cold spell he apprenently spent a fortune on his electricity bill to heat his house. (this is hear say so take it with a pinch of salt)"

A friend has it as the only heating in his relatively modern flat and says that it does cost a packet for that usage.

Gas central heating with radiators (or indeed underfloor piping as I had in the flat in CH) seems the best solution in the UK, as ever. It's a shame electricity is so expensive, as in convenience and low maintenance terms I can see the advantage of electric, but for now gas is far and away cheaper.

Neil

Electric underfloor heating is not intended to heat the room, just the floor. But the room will warm up. it's just a extra comfort thing. I've got it in my kitchen and it works well. Still got a radiator.
I have connected up several electric underfloor heating systems (I'm an Electrician). It need to be RCD protected and the Local Authority Building Control (LABC) need to be informed as a bathroom is a special location. You must get a test sheet for this . The LABC notification number should be on the sheet.
So you need an Electrician who is registered with a Part 'P' scheme (Like I am!!!). NICEIC, ELECSA etc
Check on here for a registered Sparky in your area:

http://www.competentperson.co.uk/Default.aspx

Hope this helps. There are about 1000 fires every month in the UK caused by electrical faults. So it pays to get a good Sparky and not a kitchen/bathroom fitter who thinks they know what they're doing

In reply to PaulTanton:

Note that the rules on "special locations" have changed and the amount of notifiable work has reduced *substantially* as of April.

Almost certainly it will still be notifiable unless you don't have it pretty much where you'd want it, but essentially only work up to 2.5m above the bath and 60cm from the edge of it is notifiable now (Google the new Part P and read in full to be sure, as it isn't, as with most things, *quite* that simple). This roughly equates to Zone 2.

Neil

In reply to RichardP: Slightly different but I have wet underfloor heating in large areas of an open plan house and it warms the area fine 95% of the time (and hasn't altered my oil consumption at all)- very cold in winter we do still pop a fire on too admittedly, so I woudln't want t entirely unsupported by other methods (but it is a huge open plan which is a tough area to heat and keep warm....)
The issue in your conservatory is likely that its a conservatory - generally not built and insulated to sufficient standarsd (thats why most are too cold for 5 montsh of year and too hot for another 4) - mine gets used a bit in spring and autumn and is largely useless the rest of the time.
In the bathroom where we will be fitting heating next I'll be using underfloor to take chill off a stone floor and provide background warmth but will still have a towel radiator to provide spot drying and soom oomph if needed on cold days.
My house is old so insulation/draft proofing not the best... in a modern house with underfloor heating designed in properly from start its fine as a standalone, as a retro fit there are lots of compromises.
To the OP - I'd get it - small cost for a warm floor and pleasant environment... the main open plan wood floor area of my house is lovely, spend too long in kitchen which is wood but not underfloor, even though air temp fine, its blooming chilly aroudn the feet and ankles so I'll be glad when I've done that area too. Stepping out of showers/baths onto cold floors or wet mats is not exactly luxurious - sure you can manage (as many on here have stated) but if you don't want to, don't.

In reply to BPT@work: I have underfloor heating in my bathroom and hall and totally recommend it in the former. It is totally standard in scandinavian homes for the bathroom, less so the whole house

In reply to BPT@work

We've got electric underfloor heating in a shower room and the main bathroom. As some other posters have said, it does take quite a long time to warm up from cold and it's not particularly cheap to run. We control the floor temperature with a thermostat fixed in to the tile adhesive and the main bathroom one also runs on a timer. The floor only needs to be a couple of degrees warmer than you want the air temperature and I didn't bother running the heater element cables under bits of floor where we weren't likely to be standing. It is comfortable on your feet on a tiled floor and it does dry out damp floor mats quickly. An electric kit to do an average bathroom will run at around 300 to 500 watts which isn't a particularly high load compared to a tumble drier, washing machine or kettle but you will need it to run for quite a few hours a day to maintain a comfortable temperature.

I understand what your saying. Not sure if they have dropped underfloor heating out or not. Previously underfloor heating was notifiable regardless of where it was. A conservatory for example.

I did a job earlier this year, the kitchen fitter put the heat mat down and tiled the floor. One tile was sticking up so he dug it out with an angle grinder and bolster chisel. Replaced the tile then wondered why the RCD was tripping. He rang me up and said “What you gonna do about it?”

In reply to PaulTanton:

They've dropped most things out. The only things that remain are:-

1. Entirely new circuit (this might catch it).

2. Consumer unit change.

3. Up to 2.25m above bath or the shower head height if higher, 60cm from edge of bath/shower tray or 120cm from shower head in a wet room, or anywhere in sauna/swimming pool. (this probably will catch it unless you have a 60cm gap from the edge of the bath on the heated bit, which would be a bit crap).

Nothing else at all!

It's on page 6 of the new Part P doc:-
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013.pdf

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

I suspect the reasoning is that Part P has just introduced a bureaucratic overhead for genuine electricians and skilled DIYers, and the cowboys (such as the muppet who wired my house[1]) either don't know about it or ignore it.

The high chance of electric shock (rather than fire) in a bathroom is a good reason to keep that bit I guess.

[1] Previous owner or his contractor. Nonetheless, even though it technically could have stopped the sale, why would I not buy the house that ticks every other box just because it needed a bit of electrical tidying up?

Neil