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Been looking at these free solar panel schemes and have applied for more info from one of the companies offering them.
The scheme seems pretty straight forward to me...
- They supply me with 'free' panels and equipment (which are actually on loan).
- They get all the income from the energy generated (4 x the standard unit cost).
- In return, I get to use any energy generated by the panels on my roof for free.
- Any energy I use while it's dark will come from my current supplier and I'll be billed accordingly, so I only save if I'm using power while it's light outside.
As I work from home at least half of the time and I'm often out in the evenings, I think I'm probably going to gain more than someone who's out at work all day and sitting in front of 'stenders in the evenings (especially with the electric heater on in my office through the cold winter days!!!).
The downside will be if the government decides to drop the cost per unit that they're paying the company to generate the renewable energy, but as they're not my panels I guess that's not my problem... I might just end up losing them at some point if the company fails.
So, has anyone else looked into this or even signed up? Have you come across any pitfalls or loopholes in the contracts? Are you getting a reasonable use from them? More importantly are they saving you any money?!!!
C-:
The scheme seems pretty straight forward to me...
- They supply me with 'free' panels and equipment (which are actually on loan).
- They get all the income from the energy generated (4 x the standard unit cost).
- In return, I get to use any energy generated by the panels on my roof for free.
- Any energy I use while it's dark will come from my current supplier and I'll be billed accordingly, so I only save if I'm using power while it's light outside.
As I work from home at least half of the time and I'm often out in the evenings, I think I'm probably going to gain more than someone who's out at work all day and sitting in front of 'stenders in the evenings (especially with the electric heater on in my office through the cold winter days!!!).
The downside will be if the government decides to drop the cost per unit that they're paying the company to generate the renewable energy, but as they're not my panels I guess that's not my problem... I might just end up losing them at some point if the company fails.
So, has anyone else looked into this or even signed up? Have you come across any pitfalls or loopholes in the contracts? Are you getting a reasonable use from them? More importantly are they saving you any money?!!!
C-:
In reply to CarolineMc:
Hi Caroline, I work as an energy consultant so I know all about the feed in tariff scheme. If I had a suitable house, I'd definitely get the free panels. There isn't really a downside for you. I suppose if the comapany went into administration/receivership they coudl try to reclaim the asset (i.e. take them off your roof). That's were you would have to read the small print in the contract!
This article is pretty good:
http://www.lovemoney.com/news/see-the-big-picture/the-environment/free-sola...
Hi Caroline, I work as an energy consultant so I know all about the feed in tariff scheme. If I had a suitable house, I'd definitely get the free panels. There isn't really a downside for you. I suppose if the comapany went into administration/receivership they coudl try to reclaim the asset (i.e. take them off your roof). That's were you would have to read the small print in the contract!
This article is pretty good:
http://www.lovemoney.com/news/see-the-big-picture/the-environment/free-sola...
In reply to CarolineMc: Do they get the income on what is generated over and above whatever you use? Are you capped on your usage? I suppose I should go read the small print.....
In reply to woolsack: OK, no such thing as a free lunch, true, here is how trhey make their money:
from http://www.ashadegreener.co.uk/faqs/
How can you afford to fit the panels for free?
Due to a Government initiated scheme that commenced on 1st April 2010, called the FIT Scheme, we will be paid for all the electricity our panels generate at the rate of 41.3p per kilowatt hour, regardless of whether the electricity is used or not we are not just paid for the surplus electricity that is fed back into the grid we are paid for ALL of the electricity generated – this is called a Generation Tariff, which is paid to us by the Power Companies – it is NOT paid out of the Government ‘purse’, and accordingly will not be at risk from cutbacks. The FIT income for every installation is guaranteed by legislation for 25 years and will eventually pay back our initial investment and provide us with a profit. Accordingly, we are able to fit free solar panels onto any roof that is suitable and let the homeowner use all the electricity that is generated entirely free of charge.
Where is the rat in this?
from http://www.ashadegreener.co.uk/faqs/
How can you afford to fit the panels for free?
Due to a Government initiated scheme that commenced on 1st April 2010, called the FIT Scheme, we will be paid for all the electricity our panels generate at the rate of 41.3p per kilowatt hour, regardless of whether the electricity is used or not we are not just paid for the surplus electricity that is fed back into the grid we are paid for ALL of the electricity generated – this is called a Generation Tariff, which is paid to us by the Power Companies – it is NOT paid out of the Government ‘purse’, and accordingly will not be at risk from cutbacks. The FIT income for every installation is guaranteed by legislation for 25 years and will eventually pay back our initial investment and provide us with a profit. Accordingly, we are able to fit free solar panels onto any roof that is suitable and let the homeowner use all the electricity that is generated entirely free of charge.
Where is the rat in this?
In reply to CarolineMc: They probably won't put them on your roof unless it's south facing - the returns are significantly less/takes too long to recoup the cost of their investment.
In reply to CarolineMc: I know nowt about this scheme, but in my naive world I wish all the money used for quantitative easing was used to fund renewable energy projects, subsidies etc, rather than going on cocaine and prostitutes for bankers...
In reply to CarolineMc:
I guess the real money will be in manufacturing the panels?
Ideally you would use a large bank of batteries to charge as much as possible during the day then run your house on 12/24volts or convert it to AC. Conversion is wasteful but it's free innit?
I guess the real money will be in manufacturing the panels?
Ideally you would use a large bank of batteries to charge as much as possible during the day then run your house on 12/24volts or convert it to AC. Conversion is wasteful but it's free innit?
In reply to ernie27uk: Cheers Ernie, that's a good article and sums up pretty much everything else I've read about them. Looks like a no-lose situation really! C-:
In reply to Bella: My roof faces SSW so I guess that should be good enough! Hurrah!! C-:
In reply to wayno265: I agree but I guess in the long run they're not going to make a huge amount of money - it'll cost something like £8k to fit the panels and they'll need to recoup that from profits made by the sunshine. Being that I'm in Derbyshire that could take many many moons!!! C-:
In reply to winhill: Batteries - now there's an idea. Might have to look into that!!! Good plan, cheers!! C-:
In reply to CarolineMc: A handy legal beagle has brought up the following possible pitfalls...
- Your home insurance company may have views about whether their policy covers you if you are going into the electrical generation business.
- Your contract will involve giving the solar guys access to your place and to fit things on your roof... What happens if they drop something through your roof?
- What happens if a leak develops under the panel? Do you have to wait a week for the solar guys to turn up and remove the panel for access.
All points to look at!
Any more considerations from anyone?!!
C-:
- Your home insurance company may have views about whether their policy covers you if you are going into the electrical generation business.
- Your contract will involve giving the solar guys access to your place and to fit things on your roof... What happens if they drop something through your roof?
- What happens if a leak develops under the panel? Do you have to wait a week for the solar guys to turn up and remove the panel for access.
All points to look at!
Any more considerations from anyone?!!
C-:
In reply to CarolineMc:
They'll do the calculations of how long the payback is for them - and if it is too many moons, it's unlikely that they'll install them on your home as their aim is to recoup their investment as quickly as posible.
> (In reply to wayno265) I agree but I guess in the long run they're not going to make a huge amount of money - it'll cost something like £8k to fit the panels and they'll need to recoup that from profits made by the sunshine. Being that I'm in Derbyshire that could take many many moons!!! C-:
They'll do the calculations of how long the payback is for them - and if it is too many moons, it's unlikely that they'll install them on your home as their aim is to recoup their investment as quickly as posible.
In reply to CarolineMc: on first glance this looks good and the article seems to think its quite sound too.
just a pity its not in my area at the momment.
just a pity its not in my area at the momment.
In reply to CarolineMc:
This is quite interesting actually, I've always dismissed solar panels as not being worth it in this country, does anyone know if any companies do this for business? I calculate on google earth that we have over 200m^2 of SSW facing roof. (and the same again of flat roof, but I guess that doesn't count)
Or if solar panels are worth paying for given the attractive feed in tariff? Although I doubt we can afford to stump up the capital.
This is quite interesting actually, I've always dismissed solar panels as not being worth it in this country, does anyone know if any companies do this for business? I calculate on google earth that we have over 200m^2 of SSW facing roof. (and the same again of flat roof, but I guess that doesn't count)
Or if solar panels are worth paying for given the attractive feed in tariff? Although I doubt we can afford to stump up the capital.
In reply to Jaffacake: A friend of mine living in East Anglia has stumped up for them on his house and is raking in profits from the energy company for the surplus he's providing into the grid. If you've got the cash for the outlay it seems it's well worth it. He's got quite a few panels on his rather large house though. C-:
In reply to Mikkel: Thanks Mik!! C-:
In reply to All: Ignore the concept of batteries, it doesn't work, the losses are too big.
Feed in tariffs exist to increase capacity, used well by Germany to establish their PV panel manufacturing industry.
Better, far, far better is Solar Hot Water which is both efficient from a ROI and much better use of materials. If you are looking at PV then make yourself aware the amount of embodied energy that goes into the panels in the first place.
Happy to discuss.
Cheers
LD
Feed in tariffs exist to increase capacity, used well by Germany to establish their PV panel manufacturing industry.
Better, far, far better is Solar Hot Water which is both efficient from a ROI and much better use of materials. If you are looking at PV then make yourself aware the amount of embodied energy that goes into the panels in the first place.
Happy to discuss.
Cheers
LD
In reply to CarolineMc:
In a lot of cases, electricity will be generated while no one is home but that gets fed into the grid and the company still gets paid for it. In our case, no one is home during the day apart from school holidays but even then the fridge freezer is running along with electric clocks and a couple of items on standby. Whether we save any money or not, it's nice to think that our roof space is being used to generate electricity and reduce fossil fuel consumption so I've contacted Isis since A shade greener doesn't operate in my area. I think it's a good scheme to reduce national carbon emissions by the looks of it and if there's a chance it might save me a few quid on the electric bill without any capital expenditure on my part then they're welcome to stick a panel on my roof.
Thanks for starting the thread and bringing it to my attention.
In a lot of cases, electricity will be generated while no one is home but that gets fed into the grid and the company still gets paid for it. In our case, no one is home during the day apart from school holidays but even then the fridge freezer is running along with electric clocks and a couple of items on standby. Whether we save any money or not, it's nice to think that our roof space is being used to generate electricity and reduce fossil fuel consumption so I've contacted Isis since A shade greener doesn't operate in my area. I think it's a good scheme to reduce national carbon emissions by the looks of it and if there's a chance it might save me a few quid on the electric bill without any capital expenditure on my part then they're welcome to stick a panel on my roof.
Thanks for starting the thread and bringing it to my attention.
In reply to Lurking Dave:
Fire away Dave, any approximate figures on the embodied manufacturing / distribution energy of PV panels in comparison to energy generated during the lifetime (say 15 years) of a panel?
> (In reply to All)
> If you are looking at PV then make yourself aware the amount of embodied energy that goes into the panels in the first place.
>
> Happy to discuss.
> If you are looking at PV then make yourself aware the amount of embodied energy that goes into the panels in the first place.
>
> Happy to discuss.
Fire away Dave, any approximate figures on the embodied manufacturing / distribution energy of PV panels in comparison to energy generated during the lifetime (say 15 years) of a panel?
In reply to teflonpete: Off the top of my head I would say approx 4 years, in an efficient location through to 10+ years in poor location.
Enough?
LD
Enough?
LD
In reply to Lurking Dave:
So still carbon negative over a 15 year lifespan and definitely over 25 years. Also, the energy generated by photovoltaics could provide the energy to make more photovoltaics reducing their embedded carbon.
Genuinely interested as I'm doing an environmental science degree at the moment (just started level one!) and reduction of CO2 emissions is my main interest.
Do you work in the energy sector or just have an interest?
Cheers,
Pete.
> (In reply to teflonpete) Off the top of my head I would say approx 4 years, in an efficient location through to 10+ years in poor location.
>
> Enough?
> LD
>
> Enough?
> LD
So still carbon negative over a 15 year lifespan and definitely over 25 years. Also, the energy generated by photovoltaics could provide the energy to make more photovoltaics reducing their embedded carbon.
Genuinely interested as I'm doing an environmental science degree at the moment (just started level one!) and reduction of CO2 emissions is my main interest.
Do you work in the energy sector or just have an interest?
Cheers,
Pete.
In reply to teflonpete: My involvement is professional. Consulting and government policy.
Residential PV will have only a minor contribution to long term CO2 reduction, PV is inefficient enough without the poor quality silicon, poor maintenance regime etc. As I said earlier, solar hot water good, large scale PV in the right environment works... FIT are not intended to deliver CO2 cuts over the long term.
Cheers
LD
Residential PV will have only a minor contribution to long term CO2 reduction, PV is inefficient enough without the poor quality silicon, poor maintenance regime etc. As I said earlier, solar hot water good, large scale PV in the right environment works... FIT are not intended to deliver CO2 cuts over the long term.
Cheers
LD
In reply to Lurking Dave:
What about small scale, but on every house? Surely every building trickling in a bit of electricity could make quite a big contribution across the country as a whole? Obviously it wouldn't make houses self-sufficient, but I'd have thought it might be a step in the right direction.
>
> Residential PV will have only a minor contribution to long term CO2 reduction [...] large scale PV in the right environment works
> Residential PV will have only a minor contribution to long term CO2 reduction [...] large scale PV in the right environment works
What about small scale, but on every house? Surely every building trickling in a bit of electricity could make quite a big contribution across the country as a whole? Obviously it wouldn't make houses self-sufficient, but I'd have thought it might be a step in the right direction.
In reply to Lurking Dave:
What's the point behind it then? Is it to raise public awareness and acceptance of renewables, or as a precursor to massive energy price rises?
> (In reply to teflonpete)
> FIT are not intended to deliver CO2 cuts over the long term.
> FIT are not intended to deliver CO2 cuts over the long term.
What's the point behind it then? Is it to raise public awareness and acceptance of renewables, or as a precursor to massive energy price rises?
In reply to Lurking Dave:
I once worked for a semiconductor manufacturer and the amount of electricity, really nasty chemicals and equipment required to make silicon devices is absolutely mind-boggling - that's why PV is so expensive!
> If you are looking at PV then make yourself aware the amount of embodied energy that goes into the panels in the first place.
>
>
I once worked for a semiconductor manufacturer and the amount of electricity, really nasty chemicals and equipment required to make silicon devices is absolutely mind-boggling - that's why PV is so expensive!
In reply to teflonpete:
In Germany's case to meet renewable targets agreed by the EU (same as we have the RO and now FITs).
> (In reply to Lurking Dave)
> [...]
>
>
> What's the point behind it then? Is it to raise public awareness and acceptance of renewables
> [...]
>
>
> What's the point behind it then? Is it to raise public awareness and acceptance of renewables
In Germany's case to meet renewable targets agreed by the EU (same as we have the RO and now FITs).
In reply to CarolineMc:
As another building services consultant I'd suggest that domestic PV whilst useful, isn't that useful.
The number of schemes offering free panels are basically an investment vehicle that may have some fringe environmental benefits.
The current legislation that provides feed in tarrifs for PV panels has no requirement for the production of energy to be monitored, with feed in tariffs paid according to typical, compliant installation approaches. The rate of the feed in tariff is guaranteed for 15 years, with grandfather rights, so if the FIT changes you still get the rate applicable at the time of installation...
Hence the use of these as an investment vehicle - if you splash 50k on a PV array (i'm basing this on a larger PV installation that I'm doing for a school), approx 12kW peak, you'd expect 9000kWh generation p.a. on a south facing roof. Your feed in tariff revenue would then be £3,600 each year, guaranteed for 15 years. You will also be saving £900 per annum on your electricity bills (assuming 10p/kWh). Now imagine you're an investment company with £50k of capital - would you fancy those returns? GE CApital does, as they're the chaps funding Solar Century's efforts.
Personally I think it's a shame that there is a surge of installations going on at the mo where system efficacy is a secondary concern. This will change as smart metering becomes more mature and FITs are linked to this.
That said, I would still do it on my house, but despite dealing with PV companies on a fairly regular basis professionally the buggers won't come round to my house to get it sorted domestically...
As another building services consultant I'd suggest that domestic PV whilst useful, isn't that useful.
The number of schemes offering free panels are basically an investment vehicle that may have some fringe environmental benefits.
The current legislation that provides feed in tarrifs for PV panels has no requirement for the production of energy to be monitored, with feed in tariffs paid according to typical, compliant installation approaches. The rate of the feed in tariff is guaranteed for 15 years, with grandfather rights, so if the FIT changes you still get the rate applicable at the time of installation...
Hence the use of these as an investment vehicle - if you splash 50k on a PV array (i'm basing this on a larger PV installation that I'm doing for a school), approx 12kW peak, you'd expect 9000kWh generation p.a. on a south facing roof. Your feed in tariff revenue would then be £3,600 each year, guaranteed for 15 years. You will also be saving £900 per annum on your electricity bills (assuming 10p/kWh). Now imagine you're an investment company with £50k of capital - would you fancy those returns? GE CApital does, as they're the chaps funding Solar Century's efforts.
Personally I think it's a shame that there is a surge of installations going on at the mo where system efficacy is a secondary concern. This will change as smart metering becomes more mature and FITs are linked to this.
That said, I would still do it on my house, but despite dealing with PV companies on a fairly regular basis professionally the buggers won't come round to my house to get it sorted domestically...
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