UKC

Some of the commentary coming out of Scotland and the North suggests a lot olf road closures are not due to snow, but rather HGVs jackknifing / losing traction and blocking the road. HGVs are also a lot harder to recover than cars if they properly lose it.

I realise distribution is incredibly complicated and drivers are in insecure contracts, but surely a lot of material is not immediately critical  (although given the KFC crisis last week, some people have an odd idea of critical)

So if drivers aren't being pulled off the road by their employer, what about some sort of "operation Stack" equivalent for very poor weather, where HGVs are pulled over/ off the road until it is reliably clear for them to continue?

It could just be for critical arterial routes initially, but I'm sure the people trapped on the motorways last night and today would be grateful

In reply to toad:

A lot of materials are not immediately nessesary but lots are. 

As an example my new forklift broke yesterday, the replacement part was 6 hours away and sent up overnight and my truck was running by 10am. At 11am I used my forklift to get a hire machine off the rack to take to site and the site was up and running again by 1pm. This was a waste water treatment site that would have polluted a river. 

Also who makes the call and for what duration? We have had 2 or 3 days of snow depending on your location with a few more days to come by the look of thing's. If nothing else 4 or 5 days without deliveries would mean supermarkets running low or out of essentials. 

A better idea is take better care of the roads and train drivers better. 

In reply to toad:

Driving home from work earlier in falling but not particularly heavy snow, Dual carriage way A road with ice/snow just settling between tracks cars all doing about 45 well spaced out. Lorries coming past at 55 on the limiter. Soon after road was shut for 3 hrs when one overturned.

In reply to toad:

The road out of our village was blocked as a lorry jack knifed in the bad weather.

I went the opposite direction instead and headed to another town. Conditions were very poor with snow drifting on the road making driving very hard. I was driving sensibly, having spent a week on icy roads in Rjukan, when an HGV appeared up my bum driving pretty fast considering conditions.

In reply to angry pirate:

Driving a car is relatively easy in low grip conditions, in that you get feedback of grip and steering response all the time. If you pay attention, this gives plenty of signs to adjust your speed up or down. I don't think larger vehicles have the same feedback, so they feel they have grip until they don't, but which point it's too late.

Do all/any HGVs have winter tyres fitted as a requirement, or is it not really done on HGVs in the UK?

In reply to toad:

There was a winter storm around 2003 when over a dozen lorries jackknifed on the County Durham part of the A1(m).

It was clear to all and sundry that it was going to be a bad night.  Road was shut for over 24 hours.  Made for a lovely walk the next day.  No noise!

I would consider withdrawing the first party component of insurance for high sided vehicles in winds over some level, that have been forcast 24 hours in advance.

 

In reply to balmybaldwin:

Yep, same experience today and in fact generally. Some very aggressive HGV driving around. On several occasions now when doing 50ish in poor conditions I have had lorries a couple of feet behind me flashing and even blowing their horns. This seems to be a new thing.

In reply to toad:

Many of the HGVs will be making journeys that are far more necessary than those in cars.

In reply to timjones:

Possibly, which is a good reason to make sure the road isn’t blocked, which is the point in the OP

In reply to toad:

Just end insurance pays out for anyone crashing on snow, driving on 3 or 4mm of summer tread or not significantly reducing their speed. When they can't afford to replace the truck or car they'll learn. 

It is reckless driving and many should really be up in court. 

In reply to timjones:

Very true, which probably means that those that arent can sit out the bad weather to everyones benefit. Animal feed deliveries, yes. Khun & nagel pub deliveries, maybe not. Dfs deliveries, definitely can wait. 

Better discipline by owners and operators would render this unnecessary, of course

PS I read that Nicola sturgeon has said something similar. Don't  hold it against me....

In reply to MG:

Pull over, get the company name/number from the side of the lorry. Phone employer and complain. Most take complaints seriously and will reprimand the driver. If they don't take it seriously make a complaint to the police. 

In reply to estivoautumnal:

Easier said than done on motorway in the dark/rain/snow. I have tried.

In reply to toad:

its a tricky one - as folk have said, lots of vital shipments being made - 2 or 3 days of no deliveries and most supermarkets / shops would be struggling to fill the shelves and huge amounts of food wastage as it sits in depos. 

Though I think a line should be drawn with red warnings (given how rare and normally short lived they are).  Red = nothing leaves the depos, HGVs pull into nearest safe place for drivers to get accomodation.  If it's forecast to stay the same for several days then include in resilience planning getting food etc distributed in the same way we do getting medical supplies out, vulnerable people moved around etc.

Where my folks live in south of France they do something like this that when the police declare "no travel" then HGVs are off the roads, full stop, no exceptions.  This massively reduces the number of stuck vehicles, and so allows the plows etc to run unobstructed and so get and keep the roads open much more easily.  Seems to work for them over there with a bit of foresight / planning.  Anecdotal I know, but always worth looking at how other people tackle these problems and seeing if we can steal any good ideas!

It also takes all the pressure of drivers, so company can't push them to keep moving, and likewise the company shouldn't be under pressure from their clients as it's a police / national call.

A hard part would probably be making sure the drivers had safe and warm accommodation, food etc. given we don't have nearly the Aire / Service Station network they do in France to utilise!

 

In reply to estivoautumnal:

Sadly some of the companies are not very supportive of their drivers. We dragged a couple of guys off the Woodhead pass yesterday who'd be trapped overnight and had run out of water. We got them down to a B&B, very relived Romanian chap is now getting a hard time off his boss for leaving his truck and being told to get back up there. 

Loads of lorries yesterday trying to get over the Pennines, getting to the bottom of the Woodhead which is closed and then following satnav to try to go the rural roads which obviously are in an even worse state with drifting snow. Lots of the drivers were more concerned about what the Boss would say if they didn't get to Manchester than staying safe. Whilst some of the drivers clearly do drive like mentalists, lots appear to just be under a lot of pressure from their companies to make the deliveries come what may. 

I agree with the comments above, some form of Insurance penalty on the companies if their drivers are made to drive in obvious severe weather may help to reduce the trucks blocking the roads, and he drivers getting themselves into situations they'd rather not be in. Most of them we encountered didn't have much in the way of warm weather gear. Obviously they have a heated truck, but once the diesel runs out it gets cold, or if they break down like a couple had then no heating. It was wild up on the Woodhead yesterday, and not too nice lower down either.

 

 

In reply to toad:

It's never Nicola Sturgeon's fault when anything in Scotland goes wrong. It's usually the fault of the Toaaaaries.

In reply to toad:

The usual reason that HGV's jack-knife on hills is that the clown driving the car in front of them goes so slow that they end up stopping. I've seen a number of these twonks in the last 48 hours, and it's them that are causing people to stall their vehicles.

The best thing to do with a hill/bank is to get a run at it and then KEEP MOVING at a decent speed - NOT 5mph at the bottom and the go slower.

It would be more realistic to get the nervous car drivers to stay at home.

In reply to fred99:

How does stopping result in jack-knifing??

 

In reply to fredt - both cars and lorries in the UK are driven by people unused to driving in poor winter conditions in vehicles that are badly setup for such conditions.  

Little wonder they are nervous! Or foolhardy.

The situation is hardly helped if drivers are subcontractors rather than employees - being paid >zero is a big pressure to drive in all conditions

 

In reply to toad:

Lots of numpties in cars getting stuck. They did not need to make those journeys. Nor did they prepare fir the conditions that were well known.

 

In reply to toad:

i used to be a truck driver. 32 tonne 8 wheelers then 44 tonne artics. artics get stuck on a flat road. they are terrible in snow. its up to haulage companies to keep trucks off the road but any ive had dealings with are only concerned with money

In reply to MG:

its the weight of the trailer pushing into the tractor unit. drive goes light and spins around

In reply to mark s:

Under hard braking, sure. Not slowing for someone in front dawdling up a hill surely!?

In reply to MG:

up a hill would be very hard, maybe people use the term for any artic that has spun off or crashed. rather than a genuine jk 

I never had it but in slippy conditions or breaking too hard in a corner  it would be easier. ive locked all wheels up before in a straight line and didn't jack knife. A badly weighted load could cause it as well.