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....does anyone else find it a bit odd (even uncomfortable) watching the non maori (guess I'm saying white) All blacks doing the hakka.
Admittedly I am only assuming the hakka is an indigenous ceremony but I could be wrong. Either way I think its almost ....... and here I can't find the right word but I'm hinking patroising, dis respectful etc etc.
Anythoughts?
Admittedly I am only assuming the hakka is an indigenous ceremony but I could be wrong. Either way I think its almost ....... and here I can't find the right word but I'm hinking patroising, dis respectful etc etc.
Anythoughts?
In reply to twm.bwen:
I'd always thought of it as a sign of whites attempting to integrate into their adopted society. Even if it's tokenistic it's still quite nice I reckon.
I'd always thought of it as a sign of whites attempting to integrate into their adopted society. Even if it's tokenistic it's still quite nice I reckon.
In reply to twm.bwen:
The Italians chose to ignore. I can't imagine they are feeling bad about it but perhaps if they had watched and accepted the challenge they may not have gone down quite so badly.
The Italians chose to ignore. I can't imagine they are feeling bad about it but perhaps if they had watched and accepted the challenge they may not have gone down quite so badly.
In reply to twm.bwen:
I think we should do the hokey-cokey or a spot of morris back and demand equal attention and respect.
That should keep things lively.
I think we should do the hokey-cokey or a spot of morris back and demand equal attention and respect.
That should keep things lively.
In reply to The Crow:
Oh yes! I would love to see the English team Morris dance at Murrayfield before they played us.
Oh yes! I would love to see the English team Morris dance at Murrayfield before they played us.
In reply to Jason Kirk:
Would you still love it when they beat you? Anyway it's objectively no more strange than men in skirts skipping around at a Celidh.
Would you still love it when they beat you? Anyway it's objectively no more strange than men in skirts skipping around at a Celidh.
In reply to twm.bwen:
I wouldn't miss it if the IRB decided there would be no pre-match bullshit of this sort. Teams out and game on.
I wouldn't miss it if the IRB decided there would be no pre-match bullshit of this sort. Teams out and game on.
In reply to brothersoulshine: Nice way of looking at it,
I'll try it next time.
I'll try it next time.
In reply to Mooncat:
I'm feeling that, 1st verse Hokey-Cokey followed by Ring o' Ring from us, the Spanish could do the Macarena, the Germans that thigh slapping thingy, the Scots a sword dance, and the Irish a Riverdance special.
I'm feeling that, 1st verse Hokey-Cokey followed by Ring o' Ring from us, the Spanish could do the Macarena, the Germans that thigh slapping thingy, the Scots a sword dance, and the Irish a Riverdance special.
In reply to Jason Kirk:
I remember Campo ignoring by going and practicing kicking before running in a couple of tries to beat them. I think it was RWC 91.
I remember Campo ignoring by going and practicing kicking before running in a couple of tries to beat them. I think it was RWC 91.
In reply to Jason Kirk:
Pity there isn't a RWC plate competition that way we could dish out another thrashing to your lot.
Pity there isn't a RWC plate competition that way we could dish out another thrashing to your lot.
In reply to Horse:
It is a bit needy isn't it? "You must watch us dance or we'll be terribly offended". Still it's now so expected of them that the spectators would be disappointed wouldn't they?
It is a bit needy isn't it? "You must watch us dance or we'll be terribly offended". Still it's now so expected of them that the spectators would be disappointed wouldn't they?
In reply to Jason Kirk: I don't mind it but its done for intimidation, no other reason, so the any opposition teams response is fine IMO. I know it's meant to be the laying down of a challenge and all that, aye bollox, finger across the throat was pure intimidation.
In reply to IainRUK:
I agree. But if you blank them and they still hammer you look even more stupid than you would have otherwise.
I agree. But if you blank them and they still hammer you look even more stupid than you would have otherwise.
In reply to twm.bwen: non-maori, as in white, are reffered to as 'Europeans' or 'Paheka'.
I couldn't do the rub nose greeting that my boss would in meetings, he was non-moari, but maybe being American Indian he was in more in touch, I just gave the old handshake with an 'y'alright?'
I couldn't do the rub nose greeting that my boss would in meetings, he was non-moari, but maybe being American Indian he was in more in touch, I just gave the old handshake with an 'y'alright?'
In reply to nz Cragrat: Not really, we were just shite.
In reply to nz Cragrat:
Yes, I suspected you'd turn up and beat me to the punch.
You're clearly the one to answer the OP but as for me I'm pretty certain it's just the OP who feels this way.
I've seen no evidence that Kiwis share his feeling of awkwardness at all. Quite the opposite.
> (In reply to brothersoulshine)
>
> Haka
>
> Haka
Yes, I suspected you'd turn up and beat me to the punch.
You're clearly the one to answer the OP but as for me I'm pretty certain it's just the OP who feels this way.
I've seen no evidence that Kiwis share his feeling of awkwardness at all. Quite the opposite.
In reply to twm.bwen:
watch the original!
youtube.com/watch?v=nZ96rNaHR_E&
some of these guys look a touch insecure...
watch the original!
youtube.com/watch?v=nZ96rNaHR_E&
some of these guys look a touch insecure...
In reply to twm.bwen:
If I were invited to participate in a Native American ceremonial dance or ritual of some kind, as a bloke of European descent I'd feel tremendously honoured.
Same would apply to any indigenous culture.
I'm speaking out of place here a bit, Cragrat is the one to ask, but in Michael Palin's Full Circle upon arriving in NZ Palin as a visitor participates in a Maori ritual where he is first challenged by Maori warriors, then he accepts the branch of peace placed in the soil before him by one of the stout Maori blokes. Then Palin is accepted into the tribe, as he put it.
If I were invited to participate in a Native American ceremonial dance or ritual of some kind, as a bloke of European descent I'd feel tremendously honoured.
Same would apply to any indigenous culture.
I'm speaking out of place here a bit, Cragrat is the one to ask, but in Michael Palin's Full Circle upon arriving in NZ Palin as a visitor participates in a Maori ritual where he is first challenged by Maori warriors, then he accepts the branch of peace placed in the soil before him by one of the stout Maori blokes. Then Palin is accepted into the tribe, as he put it.
In reply to Mystery Toad: Even if they think that the 9/11 attacks were due to rag heads?
In reply to nz Cragrat:
Ah well there you are.
Any thoughts on what I've just posted above?
In Full Circle Palin describes the challenge before him as the haka, but it doesn't resemble the one the OP is speaking of. Is the word haka applicable to both or was Palin mistaken? I suspect it's the former.
Ah well there you are.
Any thoughts on what I've just posted above?
In Full Circle Palin describes the challenge before him as the haka, but it doesn't resemble the one the OP is speaking of. Is the word haka applicable to both or was Palin mistaken? I suspect it's the former.
In reply to Anonymous:
Pardon me?
Look pal if you want to behave like an a**hole help yourself. Why you should choose to make a post like that here in this forum and on this topic is baffling.
> (In reply to Mystery Toad) Even if they think that the 9/11 attacks were due to rag heads?
Pardon me?
Look pal if you want to behave like an a**hole help yourself. Why you should choose to make a post like that here in this forum and on this topic is baffling.
In reply to Mystery Toad: pal, are you a weegie or a seppo?
Maybe I'm wrong but I thought you were one of theose conspiracy theirist mongs/rerards. Sorry if you're jst a regular idiot.
I'm rather chuffed to be described as 'baffling'
Maybe I'm wrong but I thought you were one of theose conspiracy theirist mongs/rerards. Sorry if you're jst a regular idiot.
I'm rather chuffed to be described as 'baffling'
In reply to Anonymous:
LOL well done genius. You keep up the typos and the rest of us will just stand back and watch you behave like a schmuck.
BYE.
> (In reply to Mystery Toad) pal, are you a weegie or a seppo?
>
> Maybe I'm wrong but I thought you were one of theose conspiracy theirist mongs/rerards. Sorry if you're jst a regular idiot.
>
> I'm rather chuffed to be described as 'baffling'
>
> Maybe I'm wrong but I thought you were one of theose conspiracy theirist mongs/rerards. Sorry if you're jst a regular idiot.
>
> I'm rather chuffed to be described as 'baffling'
LOL well done genius. You keep up the typos and the rest of us will just stand back and watch you behave like a schmuck.
BYE.
In reply to Mystery Toad:
I think that having not watched the said video - I don't watch you tube - usually due to crap internet but that is another story - it is a welcome and there have been in the early visitations of Europeans to NZ misinterpretations of it which resulted in some offence being taken and and the offenders became dinner.
The general meaning is to determine if you come in peace or for war.
To most people, the haka is a war dance. This is understandable as many have seen the haka performed as a pre-battle challenge to their opposition.
But the word "haka" simply means a dance, or a song accompanied by dance. While they are the correct terms to associate with the haka, they do not do justice to the life force, the actions, words, rhythm, themes, meaning, style or history that are the haka.
While there are many variations between the types of war dance the common feature is that they are all performed with weapons.
In pre-European and early contact times, the haka was used as a part of the formal process when two parties came together.
Succinctly put, there was a challenge from the tangata whenua or tribe from that area, followed by a response from the manuhiri or visiting party.
The encounter concluded with a tangata whenua performing a haka peruperu. The visitors would then respond with their own haka. Following speeches by both parties, they each moved together to hongi, the traditional greeting of pressing noses.
The elaborate form of the traditional challenge is not often seen these days. It is largely reserved for special occasions such as visits by senior dignitaries. However, the principles that underpin the traditional rituals are still retained in a modern form.
there is also some interesting reading here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haka
I think that having not watched the said video - I don't watch you tube - usually due to crap internet but that is another story - it is a welcome and there have been in the early visitations of Europeans to NZ misinterpretations of it which resulted in some offence being taken and and the offenders became dinner.
The general meaning is to determine if you come in peace or for war.
To most people, the haka is a war dance. This is understandable as many have seen the haka performed as a pre-battle challenge to their opposition.
But the word "haka" simply means a dance, or a song accompanied by dance. While they are the correct terms to associate with the haka, they do not do justice to the life force, the actions, words, rhythm, themes, meaning, style or history that are the haka.
While there are many variations between the types of war dance the common feature is that they are all performed with weapons.
In pre-European and early contact times, the haka was used as a part of the formal process when two parties came together.
Succinctly put, there was a challenge from the tangata whenua or tribe from that area, followed by a response from the manuhiri or visiting party.
The encounter concluded with a tangata whenua performing a haka peruperu. The visitors would then respond with their own haka. Following speeches by both parties, they each moved together to hongi, the traditional greeting of pressing noses.
The elaborate form of the traditional challenge is not often seen these days. It is largely reserved for special occasions such as visits by senior dignitaries. However, the principles that underpin the traditional rituals are still retained in a modern form.
there is also some interesting reading here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haka
In reply to nz Cragrat:
PS it is quite common amongst Pacific Island nations and I know Fiji have one they perform on some sporting occasions as do Tonga
PS it is quite common amongst Pacific Island nations and I know Fiji have one they perform on some sporting occasions as do Tonga
In reply to Trangia: I find the haka quite comical. All those grown men pulling faces. We should get the horse collar out and gurn at them.
Most amusing Haka story I ever heard was from an american fan at the Lacrosse world championships who thought it was some sort of team stretch as part of the warm up
In reply to twm.bwen: Think it's a bit sad that we don't have a socially acceptable traditional spectacle to rebutt it with, particularly when you consider most English traditions and songs have their roots in sexual deviance, social injustice or extreme violence.
In reply to twm.bwen: To OP....many white NZers grow up with the Maori culture and it's just part of life. It depends which part of the country you've grown up in and where you went to school etc. Yes, the haka is an indigenous ceremony - but I don't find it at all patronising or disrespectful that non maori all blacks perform it.
In reply to twm.bwen:
I'm suprised that the South Africans don't do a Zulu war dance like those at Rorkes Drift. In the film Zulu, it sounded like a train as they beat their shields with their assegais(?sp) and stamped their feet. If I had been a British redcoat facing that lot I would have been shitting myself.
I'm suprised that the South Africans don't do a Zulu war dance like those at Rorkes Drift. In the film Zulu, it sounded like a train as they beat their shields with their assegais(?sp) and stamped their feet. If I had been a British redcoat facing that lot I would have been shitting myself.
In reply to toad: OK opening a huge can of worms here, but 'social injustice' 'extreme violence'? Maybe look at the Moari heritage?
NZ is still affected by some very violent acts which took place 200 years ago. Survivors of massacres making claims under the Waitangi settlement; tribes slaughtered with guns bought from the Europeans whose land was claimed, sold and is now claimed back; employment in high ranking government positions still dictated by tribal allegiances. many versions of the Haka do have their routes in extreme violence.
NZ is still affected by some very violent acts which took place 200 years ago. Survivors of massacres making claims under the Waitangi settlement; tribes slaughtered with guns bought from the Europeans whose land was claimed, sold and is now claimed back; employment in high ranking government positions still dictated by tribal allegiances. many versions of the Haka do have their routes in extreme violence.
In reply to twm.bwen:
I could never understand why there was a hoo ha when Brian Moore(??) went up and stared them out a few years ago. I don't see that the opposition should be made to 'respect' the haka. Its sport, why should one team be allowed to gain (or try to gain) a competitive advantage with out the opposition being allowed to reply? They should point and laugh at the All Blacks when they do it as they do look a bit ridiculous.
I could never understand why there was a hoo ha when Brian Moore(??) went up and stared them out a few years ago. I don't see that the opposition should be made to 'respect' the haka. Its sport, why should one team be allowed to gain (or try to gain) a competitive advantage with out the opposition being allowed to reply? They should point and laugh at the All Blacks when they do it as they do look a bit ridiculous.
In reply to IainRUK: Wasn't doubting the Maori history - more pointing out that most English tradition has been so watered down we foreget that most of it is based on pretty dark events, be it the plague, Peterloo, prechristian tradition or whatever. The roots of morris are deeper than a few fat beardies on a pub car park
You may begin the ridicule now....
You may begin the ridicule now....
In reply to Tyler: I agree. The opposition should take the piss.
In reply to BrianT: The whole England team should bare their arses. Assuming we ever get as far as meeting NZ.
In reply to twm.bwen:
Not disrespectful at all, although it is apparently if done by a female.
We are a multicultural country. Maori, Pacific Islander and increasingly Asian. That NZ is willing to embrace Maori culture and celebrate it to such an extent should be seen as a positive, and the haka is performed with pride rather than begrudgingly.
Many kiwis wear Maori inspired bone carved necklaces, were adopting Maori tattoos long before it became fashionable, live in towns with Maori names, learn Maori when watching Sesami St or Playschool, have had a hangi, grow big puku's, listen with their taringas, can sing the anthem in Maori and know what a tanewha is and who Manu was. There is even a very active movement in NZ to change our flag to something less English and more Maori.
I certainly couldn't see the Aussies performing an aboriginal challenge, nor could I see the white South African side doing a Zulu war dance prior to a match - unless under extreme duress.
The Haka is is one of the spectacles of the game, just as the Samoan, Tongan and Fijian challenges are and any other team is more than welcome to play their own psychological challenge back....although that might just fire the ABs up even more.
Not disrespectful at all, although it is apparently if done by a female.
We are a multicultural country. Maori, Pacific Islander and increasingly Asian. That NZ is willing to embrace Maori culture and celebrate it to such an extent should be seen as a positive, and the haka is performed with pride rather than begrudgingly.
Many kiwis wear Maori inspired bone carved necklaces, were adopting Maori tattoos long before it became fashionable, live in towns with Maori names, learn Maori when watching Sesami St or Playschool, have had a hangi, grow big puku's, listen with their taringas, can sing the anthem in Maori and know what a tanewha is and who Manu was. There is even a very active movement in NZ to change our flag to something less English and more Maori.
I certainly couldn't see the Aussies performing an aboriginal challenge, nor could I see the white South African side doing a Zulu war dance prior to a match - unless under extreme duress.
The Haka is is one of the spectacles of the game, just as the Samoan, Tongan and Fijian challenges are and any other team is more than welcome to play their own psychological challenge back....although that might just fire the ABs up even more.
In reply to David Martin:
Would that the UK was the same about Yorkshire culture.
> (In reply to twm.bwen)
>
> We are a multicultural country. Maori, Pacific Islander and increasingly Asian. That NZ is willing to embrace Maori culture and celebrate it to such an extent should be seen as a positive
>
> We are a multicultural country. Maori, Pacific Islander and increasingly Asian. That NZ is willing to embrace Maori culture and celebrate it to such an extent should be seen as a positive
Would that the UK was the same about Yorkshire culture.
In reply to BrianT:
What does that consist of, drinking Tetley's and being rude about anyone not form Yorkshire?
> Yorkshire culture.
What does that consist of, drinking Tetley's and being rude about anyone not form Yorkshire?
In reply to Horse:
Or more likely this bloke:
"In 1997, Richard Cockerill was disciplined for responding to the haka before the start of an England vs All Blacks game. Cockerill went toe-to-toe with his opposite number Norm Hewitt while they performed the Haka. Cockerill went onto say afterwards "I believe that I did the right thing that day," he said. "They were throwing down a challenge and I showed them I was ready to accept it. I'm sure they would rather we did that than walk away."
Absolute nonesense to charge hiim with anything, its like saying not only are the opposition allowed to try to intimidate but you are also obliged to be intimidated by it, if not you're in trouble.
Or more likely this bloke:
"In 1997, Richard Cockerill was disciplined for responding to the haka before the start of an England vs All Blacks game. Cockerill went toe-to-toe with his opposite number Norm Hewitt while they performed the Haka. Cockerill went onto say afterwards "I believe that I did the right thing that day," he said. "They were throwing down a challenge and I showed them I was ready to accept it. I'm sure they would rather we did that than walk away."
Absolute nonesense to charge hiim with anything, its like saying not only are the opposition allowed to try to intimidate but you are also obliged to be intimidated by it, if not you're in trouble.
In reply to Tyler: nice .You`d have jumped on your high horse if he`d little Welsh monkey`s culture involved spitting phlegm everywhere when they speak and refusing to speak to the English in English...
In reply to Tyler:
I agree, none of the ABs were offended that I heard of and hell Norm would've loved it!
It's a challenge, get fired up in response get in their faces and accept a time honoured call to battle!
Or in the case of the Italians huddle in a group and try not to make eye contact, then roll over and play dead..... ;0)
I agree, none of the ABs were offended that I heard of and hell Norm would've loved it!
It's a challenge, get fired up in response get in their faces and accept a time honoured call to battle!
Or in the case of the Italians huddle in a group and try not to make eye contact, then roll over and play dead..... ;0)
In reply to lummox:
Does anyone else understand what is being said here or the point he is trying to make?
> nice .You`d have jumped on your high horse if he`d little Welsh monkey`s culture involved spitting phlegm everywhere when they speak and refusing to speak to the English in English...
Does anyone else understand what is being said here or the point he is trying to make?
In reply to Horse:
What and arguing over what end the ball should be at isn't??
What and arguing over what end the ball should be at isn't??
In reply to Tyler: Nah, we prefer Timmy Taylor's and we're not rude about people from The Outlands. We just pity them. Now sod off.
In reply to Tyler:
I think he wants a cup of coffee.
> (In reply to lummox)
>
> [...]
>
> Does anyone else understand what is being said here or the point he is trying to make?
>
> [...]
>
> Does anyone else understand what is being said here or the point he is trying to make?
I think he wants a cup of coffee.
In reply to nz Cragrat:
Cheers very much indeed. Hope you didn't have to transcribe all that but the general idea I had already guessed at.
Doesn't seem altogether that difficult to understand and certainly not as bizarre as some posters seem to think. Ah well.
One bit on the Return Of The King commentary discs I particularly like is when the stunt team perform a haka for Viggo Mortensen and Bernard Hill at the end of filming. They were presented with these beautiful weapons and all these stout blokes doing the haka.....really quite touching.
Cheers very much indeed. Hope you didn't have to transcribe all that but the general idea I had already guessed at.
Doesn't seem altogether that difficult to understand and certainly not as bizarre as some posters seem to think. Ah well.
One bit on the Return Of The King commentary discs I particularly like is when the stunt team perform a haka for Viggo Mortensen and Bernard Hill at the end of filming. They were presented with these beautiful weapons and all these stout blokes doing the haka.....really quite touching.
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