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Help me out here guys - Im confused.
Depending who I talk to and what I read Im given all sorts of advice.
Property is being renovovated 80(ish) year old wooden chalet built around a central brick double stack, not too many kinks - goes virtually straight up.
1) Let the stove go straight up the chimney without a flue liner.
2)Flexi liner with or without vermiculite or similar fill between liner and brickwork.
3) As above but rigid steel or similar liner.
4) Pumice tube liner (looks like mini sewerpipe sections) backfilled with appropriate stuff.
5) Any other systems?
If people could give me the pros and cons, any systems Im not aware of, and links to any websites that would be really appreciated.
Thanks in advance
David
Depending who I talk to and what I read Im given all sorts of advice.
Property is being renovovated 80(ish) year old wooden chalet built around a central brick double stack, not too many kinks - goes virtually straight up.
1) Let the stove go straight up the chimney without a flue liner.
2)Flexi liner with or without vermiculite or similar fill between liner and brickwork.
3) As above but rigid steel or similar liner.
4) Pumice tube liner (looks like mini sewerpipe sections) backfilled with appropriate stuff.
5) Any other systems?
If people could give me the pros and cons, any systems Im not aware of, and links to any websites that would be really appreciated.
Thanks in advance
David
In reply to David Hooper: Id go for no 1 provided the chimney is in reasonable nick.
Keep it swept and it will be fine.
If you find you have problems you can always drop a liner in later.
Keep it swept and it will be fine.
If you find you have problems you can always drop a liner in later.
In reply to peterjb: I had the same quandry a couple of yars ago and got all sorts of conflicting advice and nearly spend several hundred on lining gubbins, but then a chat to a local builder with 50 years experience made me realise that a simple plate and venting into the chimney woud be fine, and it was.
In reply to David Hooper: Don't know much about it but I think a flue liner is recommended as the combustion gases are pretty acidic and perish the mortar in the flue.
In reply to David Hooper: Try Stovesonline these people really know there stuff plus the service is the best i have ever come across.They designed my flue for free .I self installed my Stove along witha twin wall flue early this year.All products ordered through Stovesonline.
In reply to David Hooper:
Warning: depending on the length of your chimney, this is the really expensive bit.
Warning: depending on the length of your chimney, this is the really expensive bit.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Ive heard this Gordon - luckily we are single storey.
A couple of reasons Ive heard is to minimise corrosion to brickwork and to increase the draw to improve the burning efficiency of the stove and also that a hot, insulated flue is more effective than a cold one?
Ive heard this Gordon - luckily we are single storey.
A couple of reasons Ive heard is to minimise corrosion to brickwork and to increase the draw to improve the burning efficiency of the stove and also that a hot, insulated flue is more effective than a cold one?
In reply to David Hooper:
(1) Easy to do, but may affect draw negatively and therefore efficiency, hard to brush out completely, hence may be more prone to fires. Need to check goodness of seal and mortar
(2) Easy to fit (ish), not particularly liked by my local chimney sweeps. They complain they are usually too narrow initially and the ridges trap tars and help it build up. What we have, and no problems yet... but early days. A real pain if you even end up with a leak in them, with vermiuculite falling down from above!
(3) Harder to fit, easier to clean, allegedly - again from local sweeps. Dunno whether they are more reliable long term.
(4) No idea.
(5) ???
Again this is mostly hearsay evidence and I'm not an expert...
(1) Easy to do, but may affect draw negatively and therefore efficiency, hard to brush out completely, hence may be more prone to fires. Need to check goodness of seal and mortar
(2) Easy to fit (ish), not particularly liked by my local chimney sweeps. They complain they are usually too narrow initially and the ridges trap tars and help it build up. What we have, and no problems yet... but early days. A real pain if you even end up with a leak in them, with vermiuculite falling down from above!
(3) Harder to fit, easier to clean, allegedly - again from local sweeps. Dunno whether they are more reliable long term.
(4) No idea.
(5) ???
Again this is mostly hearsay evidence and I'm not an expert...
In reply to David Hooper:
Similar question on a minor scale.
I am wanting to put a baby pot belly stove in my shed.
Flue will cost more than stove and I have got the chance of a length of newish cast iron drainpipe.
My mate can marry it up to the stove outlet but I don't know how the cast iron will cope with the heat.
Any advice welcome.
Similar question on a minor scale.
I am wanting to put a baby pot belly stove in my shed.
Flue will cost more than stove and I have got the chance of a length of newish cast iron drainpipe.
My mate can marry it up to the stove outlet but I don't know how the cast iron will cope with the heat.
Any advice welcome.
In reply to David Hooper:
As I understand it, there are very strict regulations now as to the type of flue you have, because of the heat generated by these stoves, and the flue has to be, in effect, a completely separate and very expensive insulated pipe that runs up inside your chimney.
As I understand it, there are very strict regulations now as to the type of flue you have, because of the heat generated by these stoves, and the flue has to be, in effect, a completely separate and very expensive insulated pipe that runs up inside your chimney.
In reply to David Hooper: 2) for us. price between lining chimney and flu lining wasn't worth gamble. Our chimney was clapsing in.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
no, depends on the chimney. But needs expert advice.
> (In reply to David Hooper)
>
> As I understand it, there are very strict regulations now as to the type of flue you have, because of the heat generated by these stoves, and the flue has to be, in effect, a completely separate and very expensive insulated pipe that runs up inside your chimney.
>
> As I understand it, there are very strict regulations now as to the type of flue you have, because of the heat generated by these stoves, and the flue has to be, in effect, a completely separate and very expensive insulated pipe that runs up inside your chimney.
no, depends on the chimney. But needs expert advice.
In reply to IainRUK:
I think you are very, very lucky if you can escape nowadays with anything less than a very highly insulated flue. Freda had a perfectly good old fashioned chimney, in very good condition, in a house dating from the 1930s, and a very expensive modern flue had to be installed.
I think you are very, very lucky if you can escape nowadays with anything less than a very highly insulated flue. Freda had a perfectly good old fashioned chimney, in very good condition, in a house dating from the 1930s, and a very expensive modern flue had to be installed.
In reply to David Hooper:
I believe accortding to newish building regs if it isnt Hetas/Hepas whatever certfied, it aint legal, and if you have a chimney or other fire, the house insurance has a wriggle out clause.
I believe accortding to newish building regs if it isnt Hetas/Hepas whatever certfied, it aint legal, and if you have a chimney or other fire, the house insurance has a wriggle out clause.
In reply to David Hooper:
Very true. I paid more than I should have for mine,. No certificates.... supposedly absent mindedness. Email/Phone et al same shit.
> (In reply to David Hooper)
>
> I believe accortding to newish building regs if it isnt Hetas/Hepas whatever certfied, it aint legal, and if you have a chimney or other fire, the house insurance has a wriggle out clause.
>
> I believe accortding to newish building regs if it isnt Hetas/Hepas whatever certfied, it aint legal, and if you have a chimney or other fire, the house insurance has a wriggle out clause.
Very true. I paid more than I should have for mine,. No certificates.... supposedly absent mindedness. Email/Phone et al same shit.
In reply to David Hooper:
The fact of the matter now is that no reputable builder will instal anything that is not up to legal standards. The bottom line comes, as you say, with the insurance company.
The fact of the matter now is that no reputable builder will instal anything that is not up to legal standards. The bottom line comes, as you say, with the insurance company.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
We've just had this. Had a complaint over work done. Every step has to add up.
> (In reply to David Hooper)
>
> The fact of the matter now is that no reputable builder will instal anything that is not up to legal standards. The bottom line comes, as you say, with the insurance company.
>
> The fact of the matter now is that no reputable builder will instal anything that is not up to legal standards. The bottom line comes, as you say, with the insurance company.
We've just had this. Had a complaint over work done. Every step has to add up.
In reply to David Hooper:
Just spent a mind boggling hour browsing the Stovesonline site - what an education and what an amazing resource!!!Kind of like the Stoves version of UKC in its sheers scale and little tucked away corners.
If I get a Morsoe I think I will get these guys to do the job.
Also need to talk to the Clearview people to see what kind of an installation service they offer.
Mind is kind of clearer AND more boggled at the same time!!!
G'night folks.
PS Iain - what stove and what flue did you get and where from and could I maybe call in and have a look when Im over next?
Cheers
David
Just spent a mind boggling hour browsing the Stovesonline site - what an education and what an amazing resource!!!Kind of like the Stoves version of UKC in its sheers scale and little tucked away corners.
If I get a Morsoe I think I will get these guys to do the job.
Also need to talk to the Clearview people to see what kind of an installation service they offer.
Mind is kind of clearer AND more boggled at the same time!!!
G'night folks.
PS Iain - what stove and what flue did you get and where from and could I maybe call in and have a look when Im over next?
Cheers
David
In reply to David Hooper:
For what it's worth, we've just had a stove installed professionally, the installer inspected our chimney (built 1980) and said it didn't need a liner, so the output from the stive goes into a horizontal plate then the open chimney. Not had any problems yet.
In a previous house (built~1850) I installed a rigid steel liner myself. Bloody hard work to lift the liner up as you added each new bit (I installed from the bottom) but it was doable as the house, although 2 storeys, wasn't very big - so easily doable on your own in a single storey chalet
Mike
For what it's worth, we've just had a stove installed professionally, the installer inspected our chimney (built 1980) and said it didn't need a liner, so the output from the stive goes into a horizontal plate then the open chimney. Not had any problems yet.
In a previous house (built~1850) I installed a rigid steel liner myself. Bloody hard work to lift the liner up as you added each new bit (I installed from the bottom) but it was doable as the house, although 2 storeys, wasn't very big - so easily doable on your own in a single storey chalet
Mike
In reply to David Hooper: just to add that I've recently had installed a multi-fuel (coal/wood) burner, (Hunters Stoves) fitted. Got an aching ear about the flu tempuratures and noxtous, carcinagenic fumes. So had the double skinned stainless flu fitted at cost but did come with Hepas certiifciate so peace of mind.
You say you chalet is wooden framed - my house is timber framed and I wouldn'r run the risk of a chimney fire for fear of setting a light the structure and incuring a cavity fire. The fire brigades don't like fighting cavity fires!
You say you chalet is wooden framed - my house is timber framed and I wouldn'r run the risk of a chimney fire for fear of setting a light the structure and incuring a cavity fire. The fire brigades don't like fighting cavity fires!
In reply to David Hooper:
Can anyone give me an idea of what they paid to have a liner installed.
The firebrick liner in our old 1860 chimney has decayed and I need to drop a liner in.
S
Can anyone give me an idea of what they paid to have a liner installed.
The firebrick liner in our old 1860 chimney has decayed and I need to drop a liner in.
S
In reply to David Hooper:
Your chimney is designed to take flue gases from the fire/stove to outside.
Get someone to test/inspect your chimney so you can make an informed decision.
A chinmey sweep can do this.Also sweeping the flue first can be a good idea.
If your chimney is O.K. then off you go.
Fit your stove first section of flue and access/closure plate and maybe a cowl if you need one.
A liner/flue system is only needed if your chimney is not up to spec.
Loads of people want to sell you a liner , that`s why there are all the scare stories.
Cheers Rich
Your chimney is designed to take flue gases from the fire/stove to outside.
Get someone to test/inspect your chimney so you can make an informed decision.
A chinmey sweep can do this.Also sweeping the flue first can be a good idea.
If your chimney is O.K. then off you go.
Fit your stove first section of flue and access/closure plate and maybe a cowl if you need one.
A liner/flue system is only needed if your chimney is not up to spec.
Loads of people want to sell you a liner , that`s why there are all the scare stories.
Cheers Rich
In reply to David Hooper: Flexi Flue liner is what we went for.
In reply to David Hooper:
As I understand it, if your chimney has a fairly large diameter then your hot gases will enter from a 5" or 6" pipe hole in the registry plate, the hot air from your stove will spread out and cool rapidly. Reducing the draw on the stove and increasing the deposits on your chimney.
I think in the days of old there was probably some thought on the chimney size and the size of the hole above open fires, to maintain draw and prevent the smoke exiting into the room. Some people seem to have no problems running stoves flu less though, so hard to say for certain who is correct.
We have a single skin flexible liner in our old chimney (200years ish). It's easyish to do, you can buy a cone to use to fit whilst you feed it through, after first dropping a plumb line type thing down the chimney to pull on. If you can get easy access to the roof (single storey?), it's pretty straightforward.
I was advise against using vermiculite or chimney crete and the like around the flu. It makes it much more of a pain to change the flu in a few decades time.
If you have a fairly broad chimney base, you can get a registry plate with a separate hole in for sweeping, if you choose the unlined route.
As I understand it, if your chimney has a fairly large diameter then your hot gases will enter from a 5" or 6" pipe hole in the registry plate, the hot air from your stove will spread out and cool rapidly. Reducing the draw on the stove and increasing the deposits on your chimney.
I think in the days of old there was probably some thought on the chimney size and the size of the hole above open fires, to maintain draw and prevent the smoke exiting into the room. Some people seem to have no problems running stoves flu less though, so hard to say for certain who is correct.
We have a single skin flexible liner in our old chimney (200years ish). It's easyish to do, you can buy a cone to use to fit whilst you feed it through, after first dropping a plumb line type thing down the chimney to pull on. If you can get easy access to the roof (single storey?), it's pretty straightforward.
I was advise against using vermiculite or chimney crete and the like around the flu. It makes it much more of a pain to change the flu in a few decades time.
If you have a fairly broad chimney base, you can get a registry plate with a separate hole in for sweeping, if you choose the unlined route.
In reply to David Hooper:
Hi David. We've just fitted a stove and can help you with some aspects of this.
HETAS. Not required if you have an alternative competent person to fit and commission. It's usually much cheaper to submit a building notice (80 quid), then they would probably want to check any liner before you fit the stove pipe, and then check the draw once you've lit it, then send you a certificate through the post to say it complies with regs.
Round my way HETAS blokes were quoting me well over a grand to fit a liner, and commission in the stove (that's not including the cost of the stove), so that way could be much cheaper.
The liner/no liner question is a toughy, and would depend a lot on the quality of draw you're currently getting from the chimney, and the size of the chimney. The key difference between an open fire and a burner is the the vast majority of the heat from an open fire goes up the chimney, whereas very little of the burner's heat heads that way.
Getting a sweep in to do a smoke test and offer some advice would be a good start.
We opted for a flexiliner, but didn't backfill with insulation in the end as the draw was so good without it.
The key document for you is Part J of the building regs.
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/government/buildingregs/technicalg...
Hi David. We've just fitted a stove and can help you with some aspects of this.
HETAS. Not required if you have an alternative competent person to fit and commission. It's usually much cheaper to submit a building notice (80 quid), then they would probably want to check any liner before you fit the stove pipe, and then check the draw once you've lit it, then send you a certificate through the post to say it complies with regs.
Round my way HETAS blokes were quoting me well over a grand to fit a liner, and commission in the stove (that's not including the cost of the stove), so that way could be much cheaper.
The liner/no liner question is a toughy, and would depend a lot on the quality of draw you're currently getting from the chimney, and the size of the chimney. The key difference between an open fire and a burner is the the vast majority of the heat from an open fire goes up the chimney, whereas very little of the burner's heat heads that way.
Getting a sweep in to do a smoke test and offer some advice would be a good start.
We opted for a flexiliner, but didn't backfill with insulation in the end as the draw was so good without it.
The key document for you is Part J of the building regs.
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/government/buildingregs/technicalg...
Don't got for no 1. The previous owner of our house did, and it resulted in a serious fire. It's hard to sweep and old chimney from the access hatch on a small wood stove pipe. You just won't get a big enough brush up the smaller diameter pipe from the stove.
In reply to Slugain Howff: Flexi liner, insulation and a new chimney pot was about £1200 from this lot: http://www.yell.com/b/Aberdeen+Chimney+Linings+Ltd-Chimney+Builders+and+Rep...
And you get to see a mad English chap climb one ladder, transfer to another on the roof, whilst not touching either with his hands as he's carrying a chimney pot in one hand and a bucket of cement in the other.
Cheers,
FT.
And you get to see a mad English chap climb one ladder, transfer to another on the roof, whilst not touching either with his hands as he's carrying a chimney pot in one hand and a bucket of cement in the other.
Cheers,
FT.
In reply to Slugain Howff:
I've been quoted £150 to supply and fit a liner in a single story property (approx 6m). I suspect this is probably the going rate and seems extortionate to me, but Mrs Ridge wants to go the HETAS route.
> (In reply to David Hooper)
>
> Can anyone give me an idea of what they paid to have a liner installed.
> The firebrick liner in our old 1860 chimney has decayed and I need to drop a liner in.
>
> Can anyone give me an idea of what they paid to have a liner installed.
> The firebrick liner in our old 1860 chimney has decayed and I need to drop a liner in.
I've been quoted £150 to supply and fit a liner in a single story property (approx 6m). I suspect this is probably the going rate and seems extortionate to me, but Mrs Ridge wants to go the HETAS route.
In reply to Ridge:
Almost forgot, another £90 for the register plate, £30 for the chimney pot and (IIRC) £30 for the solid stove pipe to the flue.
Almost forgot, another £90 for the register plate, £30 for the chimney pot and (IIRC) £30 for the solid stove pipe to the flue.
In reply to Fume Troll:
I take it back, maybe £150 isn't that bad!
> (In reply to Slugain Howff) Flexi liner, insulation and a new chimney pot was about £1200
I take it back, maybe £150 isn't that bad!
In reply to Ridge:
Just about to congratulate you on your success, but then saw your next post. Still a good deal, though. A bit steep for the register plate, I would have thought, unless he's having to chop into the brickwork to fit it.
Just about to congratulate you on your success, but then saw your next post. Still a good deal, though. A bit steep for the register plate, I would have thought, unless he's having to chop into the brickwork to fit it.
In reply to David Hooper:
Have a look here,
http://server.iad.liveperson.net/hc/s-4653057/cmd/kbresource/kb-82607005612...
It's the information part of this site,
http://www.fluesystems.com/
They are who we got our flue liner and everything else we needed to fit it. Pretty good prices compared to lots of others we looked at.
We had thought about insulating the liner in our chimney but that is not strictly necessary if the top of the chimney is sealed around liner and the bottom is sealed by register plate, the space around liner warms up pretty quickly, then the hot air cannot escape and liner stays hot, helping prevent condensation of flue gases. This is the advice given on their website and seems to work in practice with our stove and liner.
Have a look here,
http://server.iad.liveperson.net/hc/s-4653057/cmd/kbresource/kb-82607005612...
It's the information part of this site,
http://www.fluesystems.com/
They are who we got our flue liner and everything else we needed to fit it. Pretty good prices compared to lots of others we looked at.
We had thought about insulating the liner in our chimney but that is not strictly necessary if the top of the chimney is sealed around liner and the bottom is sealed by register plate, the space around liner warms up pretty quickly, then the hot air cannot escape and liner stays hot, helping prevent condensation of flue gases. This is the advice given on their website and seems to work in practice with our stove and liner.
In reply to Ridge:
Mine was rather involved...
Cheers,
FT.
> I take it back, maybe £150 isn't that bad!
Mine was rather involved...
Cheers,
FT.
In reply to Fume Troll:
I would bite their hands off if offered a quote that small, for some reason I was quoted £3k for the lining of my lum, needless to say, i baulked and its one more winter with an open grate for me.
I would bite their hands off if offered a quote that small, for some reason I was quoted £3k for the lining of my lum, needless to say, i baulked and its one more winter with an open grate for me.
In reply to David Hooper: Jeez, reading this thread is amazing. Woodburners are the new "easy money" it would seem judging by the amount of cash people pay for things they probably don't need!
Get your chimney swept, you can sit your stove (having paid way over the odds for some "in" brand) in it's space. Buy a piece of Guproc Fireline plaster board and make a register plate i.e cut it to fit in the flue then holesaw/jigsaw/padsaw a hole in it for the stove pipe. Stick a smoke stick in your stove and check the draw. If okay use some fire cement to seal the register plate to stove pipe.
Now the bit that matters! Use seasoned DRY wood, light a good paper/kindling fire first to drive all the cold spots from the flue before adding logs etc.
Be very careful about what people tell re. building regs etc. The vast majority is for new build, new stacks etc. Very little applies to exsisting buildings/chimneys. Chimeny sweeps are worth getting advice from, builders will just try get you to spend money as will most stove sellers!
£90 for a register plate is a complete joke, as are the number of people fitting flue liners to perfectly good chimneys.
Buyer beware!
Cheers
Iain
Get your chimney swept, you can sit your stove (having paid way over the odds for some "in" brand) in it's space. Buy a piece of Guproc Fireline plaster board and make a register plate i.e cut it to fit in the flue then holesaw/jigsaw/padsaw a hole in it for the stove pipe. Stick a smoke stick in your stove and check the draw. If okay use some fire cement to seal the register plate to stove pipe.
Now the bit that matters! Use seasoned DRY wood, light a good paper/kindling fire first to drive all the cold spots from the flue before adding logs etc.
Be very careful about what people tell re. building regs etc. The vast majority is for new build, new stacks etc. Very little applies to exsisting buildings/chimneys. Chimeny sweeps are worth getting advice from, builders will just try get you to spend money as will most stove sellers!
£90 for a register plate is a complete joke, as are the number of people fitting flue liners to perfectly good chimneys.
Buyer beware!
Cheers
Iain
In reply to Removed User:
Perfectly good points - a lot of people will be fine with their existing chimney.
The only thing you've said that is definitely incorrect is that any modification which affects an existing chimney, and that includes the installation of a burner, with or without a new liner, must satisfy document J of the regs.
Of course, you can do what plenty of people do, which is go ahead and make the changes quite safely without reference to building control, because they're pretty invisible compared to sticking up an extension, but the only thing that made me do it by the letter is the strong suspicion that, in the very unlikely event of a damage-causing problem like a serious chimney fire, insurers are going to be looking for any excuse to wriggle out of paying - having a big claim on buildings insurance knocked back would be an utter disaster. Probably cost me an extra £100 to do it via building control, which was basically just the fee.
Perfectly good points - a lot of people will be fine with their existing chimney.
The only thing you've said that is definitely incorrect is that any modification which affects an existing chimney, and that includes the installation of a burner, with or without a new liner, must satisfy document J of the regs.
Of course, you can do what plenty of people do, which is go ahead and make the changes quite safely without reference to building control, because they're pretty invisible compared to sticking up an extension, but the only thing that made me do it by the letter is the strong suspicion that, in the very unlikely event of a damage-causing problem like a serious chimney fire, insurers are going to be looking for any excuse to wriggle out of paying - having a big claim on buildings insurance knocked back would be an utter disaster. Probably cost me an extra £100 to do it via building control, which was basically just the fee.
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