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Well, obviously it all depends on how you do it.
But is there anyone out there who has experience of a big touring bike on long journeys? Can riding be done safely or is it ALWAYS dangerous even if you ride wiht care??
But is there anyone out there who has experience of a big touring bike on long journeys? Can riding be done safely or is it ALWAYS dangerous even if you ride wiht care??
In reply to Tom P:
As someone who's preferred method of personal transport is now a bike I may be biased but some thoughts.
Your safety is very much in your hands, literally. If you want to ride safely then you have to learn some skills that wouldn't go a miss for most other road users either but are vital to bikers.
These are basically to be observant, look well ahead and learn to have a heightened awareness of potential hazards and the information that is available on the road: signs, road markings and all sorts of other things.
A good starting point is the Police motorcyle handbook or whatever it is called. You can pick one up in Smiths or good bookshops for about a tenner I think. You could then do an advanced rider course (I haven't) that you can pretty much tailor to your needs. Develop these skills and you will be surprised just how safe you feel and indeed are even at rather high speeds.
A good thing to do (in car or on bike) is to do the commentary thing as you move along a known route like your trip to work. Next day do it again and see all the stuff you missed.
You also have to admit when you have ridden badly, missed something etc and not always blame others.
I have been back on a bike for nearly three years and have not (touch wood) had a seriously close shave yet and in that time I have done something like 30,000 two wheeled miles; including a 1500 mile incident free weekend trip to Rieff and back.
Happy to discuss further.
As someone who's preferred method of personal transport is now a bike I may be biased but some thoughts.
Your safety is very much in your hands, literally. If you want to ride safely then you have to learn some skills that wouldn't go a miss for most other road users either but are vital to bikers.
These are basically to be observant, look well ahead and learn to have a heightened awareness of potential hazards and the information that is available on the road: signs, road markings and all sorts of other things.
A good starting point is the Police motorcyle handbook or whatever it is called. You can pick one up in Smiths or good bookshops for about a tenner I think. You could then do an advanced rider course (I haven't) that you can pretty much tailor to your needs. Develop these skills and you will be surprised just how safe you feel and indeed are even at rather high speeds.
A good thing to do (in car or on bike) is to do the commentary thing as you move along a known route like your trip to work. Next day do it again and see all the stuff you missed.
You also have to admit when you have ridden badly, missed something etc and not always blame others.
I have been back on a bike for nearly three years and have not (touch wood) had a seriously close shave yet and in that time I have done something like 30,000 two wheeled miles; including a 1500 mile incident free weekend trip to Rieff and back.
Happy to discuss further.
In reply to Horse:
Thanks very much for those thoughfull comments. I might go and have a look for the book tomorrow. As someone who has never ridden before I was thinking of doing the CBT then an advanced course back to back - if I ever do it at all! I do get the impression that it is fairly unsafe, but then as you say, it very much depends on what you do - though you can always miss a patch of oil etc I suppose.
What do you think about the VN1500 bikes or similar?? Might be a bit big for a first bike though - is it feasible or a joke???
Thanks very much for those thoughfull comments. I might go and have a look for the book tomorrow. As someone who has never ridden before I was thinking of doing the CBT then an advanced course back to back - if I ever do it at all! I do get the impression that it is fairly unsafe, but then as you say, it very much depends on what you do - though you can always miss a patch of oil etc I suppose.
What do you think about the VN1500 bikes or similar?? Might be a bit big for a first bike though - is it feasible or a joke???
In reply to Tom P:
The route you suggest is an excellent way to do it, exactly what I did. Great fun. You do the first morning tootling round a car park and cones on a 125 and convince yourself you will never ride a bike. You then go on the road and by day 2 should be on a 500 cc machine, I had a Kawka ER500 pie eater, great for learning on.
You will spend the rest of the course (3 or 4 days) on this, mainly on the road. Instructor and 2 pupils doing miles and miles, visiting more cafes than you will care to remember and hearing tall stories from instructors.
On the last day you will do a pre-booked test and should piss it. If you don't you should get a retest at the schools expense. You can then ride whatever the hell you like.
VN1500 not really my sort of thing, but I would have thought it a bit large and heavy for starters and those cruiser things are not the best handlers. Would be fine plugging up and down the Mway but round town a bit of handful.
You might be better off with something like a modern sports tourer (emphasis on tourer) something like a Honda VFR 800 or Yamaha Thunderace. My first bike was Ducati ST2, lovely 950 but not hugely powerful by modern standards. Thing is about these machines is that they all have very low centre of gravity and neutral handling and are comfortable on a long run because the sitting position is upright and they are well behaved at low speed.
Ohter things that are good all rounders are things like the BMW big trail bike things (shit off road) but do the biz on the road. For real touring something like a Pan European would be good, might be a bit big first off.
YOu could also think about getting a few months experience on something like a VFR 750 which shouldn't bust the bank and will retain value. Then you could go test ride your real shortlist and make a much more informed decision.
The route you suggest is an excellent way to do it, exactly what I did. Great fun. You do the first morning tootling round a car park and cones on a 125 and convince yourself you will never ride a bike. You then go on the road and by day 2 should be on a 500 cc machine, I had a Kawka ER500 pie eater, great for learning on.
You will spend the rest of the course (3 or 4 days) on this, mainly on the road. Instructor and 2 pupils doing miles and miles, visiting more cafes than you will care to remember and hearing tall stories from instructors.
On the last day you will do a pre-booked test and should piss it. If you don't you should get a retest at the schools expense. You can then ride whatever the hell you like.
VN1500 not really my sort of thing, but I would have thought it a bit large and heavy for starters and those cruiser things are not the best handlers. Would be fine plugging up and down the Mway but round town a bit of handful.
You might be better off with something like a modern sports tourer (emphasis on tourer) something like a Honda VFR 800 or Yamaha Thunderace. My first bike was Ducati ST2, lovely 950 but not hugely powerful by modern standards. Thing is about these machines is that they all have very low centre of gravity and neutral handling and are comfortable on a long run because the sitting position is upright and they are well behaved at low speed.
Ohter things that are good all rounders are things like the BMW big trail bike things (shit off road) but do the biz on the road. For real touring something like a Pan European would be good, might be a bit big first off.
YOu could also think about getting a few months experience on something like a VFR 750 which shouldn't bust the bank and will retain value. Then you could go test ride your real shortlist and make a much more informed decision.
In reply to Tom P:
Just watch how much you enjoy going fast. I crashed. High sided it- broken toe!
One of my instructors before I sat my test told me there are only 2 types of bikers-
1/ Those who have crashed
2/ Those who are yet to crash (but who will, just later)
I know there are people out there who will argue I'm wrong but bikes are dangerous. Probably more dangerous than climbing. It doesn't stop them being desirable and excting though.
Just watch how much you enjoy going fast. I crashed. High sided it- broken toe!
One of my instructors before I sat my test told me there are only 2 types of bikers-
1/ Those who have crashed
2/ Those who are yet to crash (but who will, just later)
I know there are people out there who will argue I'm wrong but bikes are dangerous. Probably more dangerous than climbing. It doesn't stop them being desirable and excting though.
In reply to Horse:
Cliche time- when it's yer time to go it's yer time to go.
Bikes are great in a way that cars can never be.
Cliche time- when it's yer time to go it's yer time to go.
Bikes are great in a way that cars can never be.
In reply to Tom P:
I know nothing about this subject, but is it not usually said that the thing with bikes is that some other dozy road user can kill you without you having the option, to a much greater extent than is true of cars, or indeed of climbing?
I know nothing about this subject, but is it not usually said that the thing with bikes is that some other dozy road user can kill you without you having the option, to a much greater extent than is true of cars, or indeed of climbing?
In reply to Tom P:
I'd normally have to say climbing although i did meet a very lovely young lady at the wall tonight who said bye bye and zipped up her biker jacket...
Therefore, climbing babes who ride motorbikes are the way forward...
I'd normally have to say climbing although i did meet a very lovely young lady at the wall tonight who said bye bye and zipped up her biker jacket...
Therefore, climbing babes who ride motorbikes are the way forward...
In reply to wee Davie:
As you say, bikes are great compared to cars. I rode thousands of miles as pillion on them but never dared to buy one as I reckoned that with climbing, caving and cycle racing it might be the straw that broke the camels back. When I rallied seriously we reckoned to have a minor crash once every ten rallies and we had three crashes that wrote off the cars so a bike would have given me an early grave.
As horse says you need to be aware of others on the road and look out for the divvies who pull out without looking even when you have headlights blazing.
As you say, bikes are great compared to cars. I rode thousands of miles as pillion on them but never dared to buy one as I reckoned that with climbing, caving and cycle racing it might be the straw that broke the camels back. When I rallied seriously we reckoned to have a minor crash once every ten rallies and we had three crashes that wrote off the cars so a bike would have given me an early grave.
As horse says you need to be aware of others on the road and look out for the divvies who pull out without looking even when you have headlights blazing.
In reply to sutty:
Riding motorcycles is much more dangerous than climbing.
This is speaking as someone who rode bikes for 10 years (broken bones in feet, broken fingers and wrist, lost skin and embedded gravel in right hip....) and who has been a climber for 5. I am also speaking as someone whose brother is presently lying in hospital with a shattered pelvis after falling off his motorcycle at 85 mph.
I would never have said this 10 or even 5 years ago. I HOPE HE SELLS THE F&CKING THING (or what's left of it) the moment he gets out of hospital.
Riding motorcycles is much more dangerous than climbing.
This is speaking as someone who rode bikes for 10 years (broken bones in feet, broken fingers and wrist, lost skin and embedded gravel in right hip....) and who has been a climber for 5. I am also speaking as someone whose brother is presently lying in hospital with a shattered pelvis after falling off his motorcycle at 85 mph.
I would never have said this 10 or even 5 years ago. I HOPE HE SELLS THE F&CKING THING (or what's left of it) the moment he gets out of hospital.
In reply to Tom P:
Speaking as a climbing babe who rides a motorbike (or a biking babe who climbs) ... :oP
Bikes are more dangerous, definitely, especially if you ride around town, purely because of the numpties you're forced to share the road with. And occasionally because the sheer fun of being on a bike makes you ride like a fool.
You can help yourself, as you've suggested by taking advanced courses. And definitely spend some money and get some decent kit. Ride and MCN are excellent for their product tests. I've seen the skin graft on a bloke who came off at 30mph wearing jeans ... not pretty. I wear my leathers all the time, even when its roasting, which is no fun. They've definitely saved my skin, and I reckon my knee ligaments, when I've come off (and you will, just hope its at low speed). Still love it, though.
Speaking as a climbing babe who rides a motorbike (or a biking babe who climbs) ... :oP
Bikes are more dangerous, definitely, especially if you ride around town, purely because of the numpties you're forced to share the road with. And occasionally because the sheer fun of being on a bike makes you ride like a fool.
You can help yourself, as you've suggested by taking advanced courses. And definitely spend some money and get some decent kit. Ride and MCN are excellent for their product tests. I've seen the skin graft on a bloke who came off at 30mph wearing jeans ... not pretty. I wear my leathers all the time, even when its roasting, which is no fun. They've definitely saved my skin, and I reckon my knee ligaments, when I've come off (and you will, just hope its at low speed). Still love it, though.
In reply to Matt Wilson: Hi I am one of thoughs lovely young babes that ride to all my climbing meets on a Yamaha 250 scooter, with tents climbing gear and rucksacks all piled up on the back and panniers its a lovely way to get about but when it rains it rains the other weekend I came back from Baggy point in Devon it rained hard all the way when I arrived home I was five layers deep and wet through to my pants but its worth it thanks Fiona.
In reply to emma and FIONA:
See, i rest my case. Climbing biker babes are the way forward.
Although i do have my eye on one in particular who as far as i know doesn't post on here or even know about it as she's just started climbing.
See, i rest my case. Climbing biker babes are the way forward.
Although i do have my eye on one in particular who as far as i know doesn't post on here or even know about it as she's just started climbing.
In reply to Tom P: I took my CBR600 all over Europe, esp' Italy. Felt very safe apart from Milan lunchtime traffic. Biking round North Wales roads I suppose that I had 3 close shaves in 3 years, all due to riding like a maniac though. Generally if you are very observant, expect idiots to pull out on you and prepare in advance for it you should be safe. I did highside once overtaking in the wet but luckily after flying like superman only having one hand on the bike landed back in the seat. CBR6's (not the sports version) are a very safe easy bike to ride for someone new but will still let you scratch as you get better.
In reply to Pete A:
If you went all over Europe on a CBR6 how did you carry the luggage? I assume you took more than a toothbrush and credit cards. Did you use throw overs or get something specially made up.
I ask because I have toyed with the idea of throwovers but need convincing, no one I know uses them for anything like carrying climbing kit. Any beta worth sharing?
If you went all over Europe on a CBR6 how did you carry the luggage? I assume you took more than a toothbrush and credit cards. Did you use throw overs or get something specially made up.
I ask because I have toyed with the idea of throwovers but need convincing, no one I know uses them for anything like carrying climbing kit. Any beta worth sharing?
In reply to Horse:
So throwovers are not used any more, pity. I know things have moved on but ALL the old climbers used them before cars. It is the thieves that have made solid boxes compulsory, you get more in a canvas bag.
I do not know about modern bikes but a low slung one should take a tank bag with panniers and if you keep the weight down on top a top box. Look at the police bikes and paramedics to see how to carry a lot of equipment safely.
So throwovers are not used any more, pity. I know things have moved on but ALL the old climbers used them before cars. It is the thieves that have made solid boxes compulsory, you get more in a canvas bag.
I do not know about modern bikes but a low slung one should take a tank bag with panniers and if you keep the weight down on top a top box. Look at the police bikes and paramedics to see how to carry a lot of equipment safely.
In reply to Tom P:
I'd have to agree with John Cox - on a bike, there is a lot of potential for you to be killed by some fool in a car who doesn't know what's going on around them.
Also I've never lost a friend climbing. Sadly, I can't say the same about bikes, although I admit this is hardly a strong statistical argument.
I'd have to agree with John Cox - on a bike, there is a lot of potential for you to be killed by some fool in a car who doesn't know what's going on around them.
Also I've never lost a friend climbing. Sadly, I can't say the same about bikes, although I admit this is hardly a strong statistical argument.
In reply to sutty: You can still get what are essentially throwovers, but they're rather more sophisticated these days. For a start, they're made of cordura rather than canvas! Often they will have a separate attachment system using bungies and straps which you fit around the rear of the saddle, and the panniers then attach to that. It's then quite straightforward to remove the panniers for security, although of course some scrote could still nick the straps and bungies! That being said, I think the seating arrangements on lot of modern sports bikes are not well suited to fitting any kind of soft luggage. Then again, the majority of bikers I see on the Highland roads seem to be out on one day blasts from the Glasgow/Edinburgh area. They certainly don't seem to be carrying any luggage. If you see a bike laden with touring gear it'll usually turn out to be German!
As for carrying your rack in soft panniers, I think that would generally not be recommended because of the risk of one of them slipping in to the rear wheel. I'd certainly be wary of carrying heavy loads this way, although I've happily toured with clothes and lighter gear in my soft panniers. I'd put heavy stuff in either my tank bag or a rucksack, where at least it would be between the axles.
As for hard bags being more secure, I've had the top box nicked off my bike once. It was locked to the mounting plate which was bolted and screwed to the bike, and the bike was parked in full public view in a London square. There was nothing left behind to indicate how the thief had got the top box off the mounting plate. The only way to stop people nicking stuff off your bike these days is to take it with you. (So then they'll nick the bike instead - which has also happened to me).
As for carrying your rack in soft panniers, I think that would generally not be recommended because of the risk of one of them slipping in to the rear wheel. I'd certainly be wary of carrying heavy loads this way, although I've happily toured with clothes and lighter gear in my soft panniers. I'd put heavy stuff in either my tank bag or a rucksack, where at least it would be between the axles.
As for hard bags being more secure, I've had the top box nicked off my bike once. It was locked to the mounting plate which was bolted and screwed to the bike, and the bike was parked in full public view in a London square. There was nothing left behind to indicate how the thief had got the top box off the mounting plate. The only way to stop people nicking stuff off your bike these days is to take it with you. (So then they'll nick the bike instead - which has also happened to me).
In reply to Horse: Yup - had the Oxford soft panniers - http://www.oxprod.com/pages/panniers.htm for more modern ones. Mine were plain single compartment approx 30l ones, black and swept up at the rear to clear a sports exhaust. Because they come up to seat level I then put my 50l hot earth rucksack sideways across the top with the sleeping bag and tent behind. A bungy net held the whole lot on. I found it to be very stable and it felt easier to get the bike down then with a pillion passenger. The things are very tough - I'd carry climbing kit any day in them.
In reply to Pete A:
Thats the sort of thing I was thinking of, like the rucksack tent trick. Maybe I should consider further. Cheers for the feedback.
Thats the sort of thing I was thinking of, like the rucksack tent trick. Maybe I should consider further. Cheers for the feedback.
In reply to Horse: I want another bike *sobs in corner*.
In reply to Pete A:
I would say motorbikes are the more dangerous.
Though I'm speaking as an ex-biker too, and someone who has lost a friend to bikes and a step-dad to climbing.
The reson, IMHO is the 'other idiots'. I never realised how bad car drivers were until I got a bike at 21. Jeez !
I came of my 1100 and was very lucky, coulda broke my neck but was 100% OK (the bike wasn't boo hoo)
Though it was my fault this time.
The best attitude I found was to assume that every other vehicle was out to kill you. That way you weren't too surprised when they did...
And FYI, I sold my bike coz I was riding too fast too often, and figured it would be only a matter of time.
At least (mostly) its your choice on the level of danger when climbing.
I would say motorbikes are the more dangerous.
Though I'm speaking as an ex-biker too, and someone who has lost a friend to bikes and a step-dad to climbing.
The reson, IMHO is the 'other idiots'. I never realised how bad car drivers were until I got a bike at 21. Jeez !
I came of my 1100 and was very lucky, coulda broke my neck but was 100% OK (the bike wasn't boo hoo)
Though it was my fault this time.
The best attitude I found was to assume that every other vehicle was out to kill you. That way you weren't too surprised when they did...
And FYI, I sold my bike coz I was riding too fast too often, and figured it would be only a matter of time.
At least (mostly) its your choice on the level of danger when climbing.
In reply to not that steve:
Yeah that's quite a common and interesting attitude to arrive at.
I haven't had a bike for a year or so,but I know I'd hurt myself on one if I had one (again).
One of my mates knows a guy who had a Gixer 600 who sold it 'cos he knew he was going to cark it e.g.
140mph every day on the A90 Perth to Dundee.
Yeah that's quite a common and interesting attitude to arrive at.
I haven't had a bike for a year or so,but I know I'd hurt myself on one if I had one (again).
One of my mates knows a guy who had a Gixer 600 who sold it 'cos he knew he was going to cark it e.g.
140mph every day on the A90 Perth to Dundee.
In reply to wee Davie:
when we complained about the handling of the bike we went away on they said it was not safe to do more than 90 with either panniers or a pillion passenger on.
Being as we had both plus a rucksack we decided to keep the speed down when fully loaded. This was pre speed limits, we used to cruise between 90/110 fully loaded.
when we complained about the handling of the bike we went away on they said it was not safe to do more than 90 with either panniers or a pillion passenger on.
Being as we had both plus a rucksack we decided to keep the speed down when fully loaded. This was pre speed limits, we used to cruise between 90/110 fully loaded.
In reply to wee Davie: yes, one day I was waiting at the roundabout on the edge of town for the 'slowcoaches' when it started to dawn on me that I'd just been doing a ton down the whites lines of a (reasonable) single carriageway with cars going both ways, and the implications if a car had peeked out to try to overtake...
In reply to Tom P: Riding your Mountain Bike in the Peak on a Sunday when all the sports bikers are treating the bends as though they were Knicker Brook..They really are a bunch of tossers, often getting lost when there is a diversion and have to re route. Hope they don't find the yellows stick to the reds lads......
In reply to sutty:
Being a pillion is a weirdly enjoyable thing in a way that being the passenger in a car going fast never is.
I like going fast on the back of a bike (within reason), but hate it being strapped into the left hand seat of a ton of tin driven by a mentalist.
Bizarrely irrational.
I don't understand why I feel safer on the bike. Hmmm?
One of my mates scared us both once by pulling out to overtake a line of cars and a truck on his bike. Things were going nicely 'till I spotted a van coming t'other way. His eye sight is shite so I panicked while he tootled along 'till he spotted said van. Cue brakes in a big way. Near death experience for us both. Turned out he thought we were on a dual carriageway. Maybe he shouldn't have been so honest as to admit that. I'm quite a vigliant pillion as a result!
Being a pillion is a weirdly enjoyable thing in a way that being the passenger in a car going fast never is.
I like going fast on the back of a bike (within reason), but hate it being strapped into the left hand seat of a ton of tin driven by a mentalist.
Bizarrely irrational.
I don't understand why I feel safer on the bike. Hmmm?
One of my mates scared us both once by pulling out to overtake a line of cars and a truck on his bike. Things were going nicely 'till I spotted a van coming t'other way. His eye sight is shite so I panicked while he tootled along 'till he spotted said van. Cue brakes in a big way. Near death experience for us both. Turned out he thought we were on a dual carriageway. Maybe he shouldn't have been so honest as to admit that. I'm quite a vigliant pillion as a result!
In reply to Tom P: Climbing broke my right leg, biking my left. Climbing was my decision, but turning right without looking was the other guy's. I'll climb again, but no more bikes.
In reply to wee Davie:
Had lots of exciting rides.
Going back to Manchester from stoney on the back of Pete schofields bike I fell asleep , not too bad till we went round a long sweeping bend near Sparrowpit or thereabouts at 120. I started to slide off and he grabbed me with one hand to keep me on.
I used to get a lift to camp when in the forces along a windy road and the driver was used to me going to sleep on the back for the twenty miles I was on the back.
Had lots of exciting rides.
Going back to Manchester from stoney on the back of Pete schofields bike I fell asleep , not too bad till we went round a long sweeping bend near Sparrowpit or thereabouts at 120. I started to slide off and he grabbed me with one hand to keep me on.
I used to get a lift to camp when in the forces along a windy road and the driver was used to me going to sleep on the back for the twenty miles I was on the back.
In reply to sutty:
Hey, I can't sleep in any from of wheeled transport, never mind on a bike!
Massive respect in an area for being able to relax so completely!
Hey, I can't sleep in any from of wheeled transport, never mind on a bike!
Massive respect in an area for being able to relax so completely!
In reply to wee Davie:
A couple of years ago my boyfriend and I (on his VFR) and his cousin (on an ZX-7R) rode down to Italy. We did St Albans to Annecy in a day, and I slept for quite a lot of the way, which was fine since it was all straight roads. It got more problematic when we got onto the sweeping bends in Italy, Pete kept having to stick an arm out to push me back upright as he felt me leaning off to the side.
As for speed with pillion/panniers, on the way back through Northern Italy we hit the longest, straightest, emptiest road I've ever seen. A Mercedes turbo diesel went past rather fast, so we thought we'd see what speed he was going, and then went past for a speed test. We got up to 140-ish with 2-up with tank bag and rucksack on, and Nick on the ZX-7R was pushing 150 with panniers + sports bag on top! It felt pretty solid to me, but then I wasn't riding.
I try and ride pretty safely, without being a complete old woman, and save pushing the limits for the odd track day I make it to. Biking's too much fun to give up.
A couple of years ago my boyfriend and I (on his VFR) and his cousin (on an ZX-7R) rode down to Italy. We did St Albans to Annecy in a day, and I slept for quite a lot of the way, which was fine since it was all straight roads. It got more problematic when we got onto the sweeping bends in Italy, Pete kept having to stick an arm out to push me back upright as he felt me leaning off to the side.
As for speed with pillion/panniers, on the way back through Northern Italy we hit the longest, straightest, emptiest road I've ever seen. A Mercedes turbo diesel went past rather fast, so we thought we'd see what speed he was going, and then went past for a speed test. We got up to 140-ish with 2-up with tank bag and rucksack on, and Nick on the ZX-7R was pushing 150 with panniers + sports bag on top! It felt pretty solid to me, but then I wasn't riding.
I try and ride pretty safely, without being a complete old woman, and save pushing the limits for the odd track day I make it to. Biking's too much fun to give up.
In reply to Emma Wheeler:
I am a biker/climber girly (VTR1000) and I reckon biking is more dangerous. Put it this way, I've only every had minor bruising from climbing 'incidents' - crashed my bike and ended up with massive bruising to my knee and collarbone, muscle damage and months of physio on my shoulder. Ouch.
Knocked me back a lot, but I just bought this much bigger bike and amd having fun again! Plus my bum looks good in my new leathers! <grin>
Boyf has done an advanced riding course but I am not sure of his opinion on its merits - sure he'll be along later and throw in his two penn'orth.
I know of other people who have declared their advanced riding courses to be thoroughly dangerous - pushing people beyond their comfort limit in a big way and forcing them to make potentially tragic mistakes.
Make sure you get a good instructor - get recommendations from other bikers in your area!!
I am a biker/climber girly (VTR1000) and I reckon biking is more dangerous. Put it this way, I've only every had minor bruising from climbing 'incidents' - crashed my bike and ended up with massive bruising to my knee and collarbone, muscle damage and months of physio on my shoulder. Ouch.
Knocked me back a lot, but I just bought this much bigger bike and amd having fun again! Plus my bum looks good in my new leathers! <grin>
Boyf has done an advanced riding course but I am not sure of his opinion on its merits - sure he'll be along later and throw in his two penn'orth.
I know of other people who have declared their advanced riding courses to be thoroughly dangerous - pushing people beyond their comfort limit in a big way and forcing them to make potentially tragic mistakes.
Make sure you get a good instructor - get recommendations from other bikers in your area!!
In reply to all:
While I won't deny that riding a motorbike is potentially dangerous the injury count is really an irrelevance. You can get injured getting out of bed, or indeed in bed. Anyone suggesting that sleeping is more dangerous than climbing, biking or whatever? Of course not.
Maybe I have been lucky but I have not had any serious injury resulting from anything I have done on the road in a car, on a push bike, or riding a motor bike. I have broken minor things climbing, I have wrecked a knee climbing and I have damaged my neck/spine, been stitched back together playing other sports.
As has been alluded to in this thread one has to recognise the potential danger in any activiy (biking or climbing) and find ways to deal with it or minimise it. If you can't then don't do it anything else is quite frankly a bit absurd.
TN on the matter of advanced courses, well there are courses and courses. I bet the ones organised by the IAM don't involve any speeding, equally those aimed at high speed riding probably do. There are also advanced course where you can say I just want to ride within the limit and do so as safely as possible.
While I won't deny that riding a motorbike is potentially dangerous the injury count is really an irrelevance. You can get injured getting out of bed, or indeed in bed. Anyone suggesting that sleeping is more dangerous than climbing, biking or whatever? Of course not.
Maybe I have been lucky but I have not had any serious injury resulting from anything I have done on the road in a car, on a push bike, or riding a motor bike. I have broken minor things climbing, I have wrecked a knee climbing and I have damaged my neck/spine, been stitched back together playing other sports.
As has been alluded to in this thread one has to recognise the potential danger in any activiy (biking or climbing) and find ways to deal with it or minimise it. If you can't then don't do it anything else is quite frankly a bit absurd.
TN on the matter of advanced courses, well there are courses and courses. I bet the ones organised by the IAM don't involve any speeding, equally those aimed at high speed riding probably do. There are also advanced course where you can say I just want to ride within the limit and do so as safely as possible.
In reply to Horse:
You're right, of course. I haven't done an advanced one but am just relaying experiences of others who have.
I believe the 'scary' course in question was organised through the fire service..... (I might have the wrong end of the stick here though! Apologies if so.) which is mighty worrying. I think it was just one of the instructors though, as others had been on it and though it was pretty good!?
Boyfs course was with an ex-policeman and instructor of many years - he pushes you, but not to the point of you being scared or a danger to yourself/others. (He taught me to ride, years ago)
Also, theres a police rider in Sheffield (Chris Palfrey?) who used to do advanced riding courses, so I would imagine if that was your thing, other forces would offer the same!?
You're right, of course. I haven't done an advanced one but am just relaying experiences of others who have.
I believe the 'scary' course in question was organised through the fire service..... (I might have the wrong end of the stick here though! Apologies if so.) which is mighty worrying. I think it was just one of the instructors though, as others had been on it and though it was pretty good!?
Boyfs course was with an ex-policeman and instructor of many years - he pushes you, but not to the point of you being scared or a danger to yourself/others. (He taught me to ride, years ago)
Also, theres a police rider in Sheffield (Chris Palfrey?) who used to do advanced riding courses, so I would imagine if that was your thing, other forces would offer the same!?
In reply to TN: Bikes are more dangerous not because you might fall off but because other people cause you to crash
in climbing you control to the most part there may be some loose rock but its your choice on a bike some idiot can just kill you without thinking!
I have spent more time in hospital caused by numpty's in cars than anything else. though I would still ride a bike but I would be very wary of letting my kids ride though i am quite happy to let my eldest climb E5
in climbing you control to the most part there may be some loose rock but its your choice on a bike some idiot can just kill you without thinking!
I have spent more time in hospital caused by numpty's in cars than anything else. though I would still ride a bike but I would be very wary of letting my kids ride though i am quite happy to let my eldest climb E5
In reply to Justin:
Have you thought that you spent so much time in hospital through not practicing defensive driving? Horse says he has not hurt himself yet so could it be that you went past that junction 20MPH too fast and the person pulling out misjudged your speed.
Last week I nearly took out a biker, I pulled out of a junction 100 yards up from a roundabout and he came round as I pulled out and nearly ran in the back of me. He was moving too fast, well over the thirty limit but still blamed me for the close shave.
I cannot see round corners, think before speeding.
Have you thought that you spent so much time in hospital through not practicing defensive driving? Horse says he has not hurt himself yet so could it be that you went past that junction 20MPH too fast and the person pulling out misjudged your speed.
Last week I nearly took out a biker, I pulled out of a junction 100 yards up from a roundabout and he came round as I pulled out and nearly ran in the back of me. He was moving too fast, well over the thirty limit but still blamed me for the close shave.
I cannot see round corners, think before speeding.
In reply to sutty:
I have to agree with sutty here - he is not the only one who's had this occurrence.
Given the right car I also like to go fast.
Speed is fine, as long as you can stop within the distance you can see.
I try to stick to that.
It goes the same with cars.
There's far too many people who don't
I have to agree with sutty here - he is not the only one who's had this occurrence.
Given the right car I also like to go fast.
Speed is fine, as long as you can stop within the distance you can see.
I try to stick to that.
It goes the same with cars.
There's far too many people who don't
In reply to Martin Brierley:
I blew a gasket tonight after reading a report of a death in the paper of someone being run over by a menwith police vehicle. He was drunk and laid in the road, ok.
But the black box recorder said the vehicle was moving between 46/49 mph. The examiner said that the lights only reached 25 metres in front of the car. Now 25 metres is slightly over 75 ft, the stopping distance at 30mph so the driver was travelling too fast to stop in vision. The verdict was accidental death.
Now if the car had driven into a car on its side with no reflective parts to warn him the people in the car might be dead, accident or driving too fast?
I blew a gasket tonight after reading a report of a death in the paper of someone being run over by a menwith police vehicle. He was drunk and laid in the road, ok.
But the black box recorder said the vehicle was moving between 46/49 mph. The examiner said that the lights only reached 25 metres in front of the car. Now 25 metres is slightly over 75 ft, the stopping distance at 30mph so the driver was travelling too fast to stop in vision. The verdict was accidental death.
Now if the car had driven into a car on its side with no reflective parts to warn him the people in the car might be dead, accident or driving too fast?
In reply to sutty:
I didn't know they had black box recorders on police vehicles.
Is a menwith a pursuit car?
I suspect most of the police accidents are caused by the non pursuit trained mobile officers who basically are you and me hammering it round in a 30 zone. fnuck ups are going to happen.
The A1 class drivers are pretty special though.
I didn't know they had black box recorders on police vehicles.
Is a menwith a pursuit car?
I suspect most of the police accidents are caused by the non pursuit trained mobile officers who basically are you and me hammering it round in a 30 zone. fnuck ups are going to happen.
The A1 class drivers are pretty special though.
In reply to sutty: Hmmm sounds like manslaughter to me, f*cking Police
In reply to Jon Greengrass:
I thought so too,
BTW, it was a MOD patrol car, one that is supposed to be looking out for trespassers on the site. Missed that one hiding on the road didn't they?
I thought so too,
BTW, it was a MOD patrol car, one that is supposed to be looking out for trespassers on the site. Missed that one hiding on the road didn't they?
In reply to sutty:
The MOD police are a law unto themselves.
Reckon they'd have got a bit of a bollocking, but it would prolly have gone no further.
The MOD police are a law unto themselves.
Reckon they'd have got a bit of a bollocking, but it would prolly have gone no further.
In reply to sutty: I have never had a bike Accident that was my fault apart from missing seeing a patch of Diesel on a slip road fell off at 5MPH I used to train people to Ride
I was a member of the IAM I passed the Advanced test I do Drive ride defensivly. its a complete lottery when you ride now even a bicycle. the majority of road users dont pay enough attention to driving. they drive too fast and too close not giving themselves enough space to react to situations.
I was a member of the IAM I passed the Advanced test I do Drive ride defensivly. its a complete lottery when you ride now even a bicycle. the majority of road users dont pay enough attention to driving. they drive too fast and too close not giving themselves enough space to react to situations.
In reply to Martin Brierley:
Here is the story, managed to find it somehow;
http://www.harrogatetoday.co.uk/ViewArticle.aspx?SectionID=17&ArticleID...
Here is the story, managed to find it somehow;
http://www.harrogatetoday.co.uk/ViewArticle.aspx?SectionID=17&ArticleID...
In reply to Justin:
I'm more scared on roads on a pushbike than a motorcycle because I'm so concerned some dozy phuqa will rear end me. Diesel is a bastard. How the phuq do these haulage companies have the gall to complain about fuel costs when they spill half their fuel all over our roads!!!
I nearly dropped my motor bike badly on one diesel skid pan corner.
I'm more scared on roads on a pushbike than a motorcycle because I'm so concerned some dozy phuqa will rear end me. Diesel is a bastard. How the phuq do these haulage companies have the gall to complain about fuel costs when they spill half their fuel all over our roads!!!
I nearly dropped my motor bike badly on one diesel skid pan corner.
In reply to Tom P: My job is a highway inspector on the M6, M56 and M53 motorways. Every single day I see cases of dangerous driving verging on the criminal or criminally stupid. When I had my bike I assumed that everyone else was a homicidal idiot and some of them still almost caught me out. Won't stop me getting another one though
In reply to TN:
Not read the rest of the thread, but the advanced course I did was more of a taster - just an afternoon out one on one. Bloody expensive at around £60 (some years ago). Taught me the obvious things like looking at telegraph poles to see which way the road went, and "you're on a sports bike fer F'cks sake, get a move on"
Not read the rest of the thread, but the advanced course I did was more of a taster - just an afternoon out one on one. Bloody expensive at around £60 (some years ago). Taught me the obvious things like looking at telegraph poles to see which way the road went, and "you're on a sports bike fer F'cks sake, get a move on"
In reply to wee Davie:
not just bikes, I spun my Triumph Spitfire on a diesel spill, mind you they handle like a greasy pig on a pole
not just bikes, I spun my Triumph Spitfire on a diesel spill, mind you they handle like a greasy pig on a pole
I think that the unavoidable risks involved in biking are considerably higher than those involved in climbing. There's a minimum risk you cannot avoid on a bike. Even the most careful rider in the world can get taken out by an idiot on the wrong side of the road, a patch of diesel you don't see that sends you under a truck, and so on. The unavoidable dangers in climbing are much less.
Comparisons are difficult because, to some extent, each rider/climber chooses how much risk to expose themselves to. I find riding motorbikes steadily a bit dull and I'm not interested in doing so. Riding quickly on the road is a very dangerous and stupid thing to do so I gave up road-riding and did trackdays and a bit of racing. I crashed plenty but I was always pushing myself and accepted that crashing was part of the game. On the track you can do this with only a small chance of killing or crippling yourself though there is a good chance of hurting yourself. I was lucky and always walked away. I haven't the time nowadays to ride on the track so I don't have bike. I'd love a road bike but I know that I'd get bored and start pushing the speeds up way too high. I haven't the self-control to ride sensibly. Neither do most of my friends who ride, and as a result none of us now have bikes, we've all decided the risk is too great.
We all make decisions in our climbing about the level of risk to take. If you boulder, sport climb and do well-protected trad routes or short grit solos then you’re pretty safe. Like track riding, you might get hurt but the chances are slim that it'll kill or maim you. Start soloing or doing death trad and the chance of killing yourslef goes up, as it does if you start doing alpine routes subject to rockfall, avalanche, getting caught in a storm, etc.
Basically, I reckon even the most careful rider is still subject to more uncontrollable dangers than a careful climber, and if you push things on a bike they get very dangerous very quickly. I'll be completely against my sons having motorbikes when they get older, I'll be happy if they want to climb as long as they are not too daft.
Comparisons are difficult because, to some extent, each rider/climber chooses how much risk to expose themselves to. I find riding motorbikes steadily a bit dull and I'm not interested in doing so. Riding quickly on the road is a very dangerous and stupid thing to do so I gave up road-riding and did trackdays and a bit of racing. I crashed plenty but I was always pushing myself and accepted that crashing was part of the game. On the track you can do this with only a small chance of killing or crippling yourself though there is a good chance of hurting yourself. I was lucky and always walked away. I haven't the time nowadays to ride on the track so I don't have bike. I'd love a road bike but I know that I'd get bored and start pushing the speeds up way too high. I haven't the self-control to ride sensibly. Neither do most of my friends who ride, and as a result none of us now have bikes, we've all decided the risk is too great.
We all make decisions in our climbing about the level of risk to take. If you boulder, sport climb and do well-protected trad routes or short grit solos then you’re pretty safe. Like track riding, you might get hurt but the chances are slim that it'll kill or maim you. Start soloing or doing death trad and the chance of killing yourslef goes up, as it does if you start doing alpine routes subject to rockfall, avalanche, getting caught in a storm, etc.
Basically, I reckon even the most careful rider is still subject to more uncontrollable dangers than a careful climber, and if you push things on a bike they get very dangerous very quickly. I'll be completely against my sons having motorbikes when they get older, I'll be happy if they want to climb as long as they are not too daft.
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