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Wi fi - rubbish

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Wifi is crap, I've decided.  The time spent fiddling with codes, drivers, opaque instructions is ridiculous. Currently the central heating Hive thing has never connected.  The printer won't connect.  The scanner needs a password every time.  There is basically no support. This is typical.  Why do we accept this crapness? If a car or fridge was similar, we would reject them 

9
In reply to MG:

Buy proper gear. Ubiquiti UniFi access points aren’t very expensive and really worth it if you just need it to work.

In reply to Steve Clark:

I've bought  a router with the broadband.  It should work. "Buy a Rolls, Fords are rubbish" doesn't cut it.

5
In reply to MG:

IEEE 802.11 is used in billions of devices without problem.

Sorry, but it's the devices you are using.

Whose router/broadbamd are you using...?

Post edited at 22:28
 Graeme G 08 Jan 2021
In reply to MG:

Never had a problem. It’s obviously you.

 The Lemming 08 Jan 2021
In reply to MG:

Are you using a free router given by your Broadband supplier?

Or have you bought a router?

In reply to captain paranoia:

So I replace a Hive (£200) with hwat?.An HP scanner (£150) with what? It bollocks. Things should work if buy them. Theres even laws about it..

4
In reply to The Lemming:

> Are you using a free router given by your Broadband supplier?

> Or have you bought a router?

It wasnt  "free". I pay for broadband.

2
In reply to MG:

> It wasnt  "free". I pay for broadband.

The router doesn't seem to be the problem . It's the other bits that don't connect. 

4
In reply to MG:

It’s not a Rolls. You can buy a Cisco or Rukkus access point for £2000 and then pay £100 per month for support if you want a Rolls.

A UniFi WiFi 6 AP is £100. 802.11ax. Cutting edge for semi-pro consumer grade. It’s a Toyota.

I have a one of the original entry level UniFi APs at the office. Bar power cuts, it hasn’t been rebooted for 10years. It just glows green and works.

The bundled gear from bt/talk talk/sky just about manages with a couple of devices in the same room. 

 mik82 08 Jan 2021
In reply to MG:

If you have multiple other bits that won't connect then isn't it likely to be the router?

In reply to MG:

A hive works on 2.4 & 5ghz. If it’s away from the router it may be connecting on 5ghz intermittently (it doesn’t work well through walls). See if you can change it to 2.4ghz. Or you may have 2.4ghz (802.11b) turned off on the router. BT hubs can have two different SSIDs for 2.4 & 5. Check which one it’s connected to. 2.4 propagates further but slower, 5 is faster but doesn’t penetrate walls so well.

Printers/scanners can have their own WiFi network ssid for direct connection from your device. Avoid that, it is not connected to the internet and will disconnect your pc/phone from the internet whilst you’re connected to it. Connect the printer to your home router ssid and ensure the device you are printing from / scanning to is on the same ssid.

UniFi APs can operate with a single ssid across both frequencies and across multiple devices. If you have more than one, it seamless roams as you move around the house.

Post edited at 23:05
 The Lemming 08 Jan 2021
In reply to MG:

> It wasnt  "free". I pay for broadband.

Ok, I shall rephrase. Was the router given to you by your broadband provider to use?

In reply to mik82:

Well phone and PC work. I don't think there is a technical problem. It's the lack of user. friendliness that seems a feature of wifi I am complaining about. Even this thread shows it with gobbledygook names and numbers. I just want my scanner to work without tapping in a 12 character password each time, for example.

3
In reply to Steve Clark:

I know you are trying to be helpful but this is *exactly* my complaint. I shouldn't have to worry about  what Ghz I am using and waste hours on it.

4
In reply to MG:

> I know you are trying to be helpful but this is *exactly* my complaint. I shouldn't have to worry about  what Ghz I am using and waste hours on it.

As comparison, imagine if this thread was about fridges not cooling and the reply was that!

2
In reply to MG:

It’s frustrating, I realise this.

I spent my youth (before I discovered climbing) tinkering with PCs for endless hours.

Now, I have no time or the patience for tinkering with flakey gear or crap broadband providers. 

I bought the tool that does the job flawlessly and needs no maintenance. I have two kids using MS teams every day to attend school. Their only contact with mates is via the internet. Mrs C is at a busy point in an OU maths degree and clinically vulnerable. We need to shop online. If I have to isolate, I need to work from home too. WiFi is really important to us. 

Hence I pay £60 a month for business grade broadband. And a £100 one-off purchase of a good access point. 

In reply to MG:

You know those fridges that have a small cool box in the top that clogs up with ice and have no proper temperature control, whilst the rest of the fridge is too small to fit a turkey or crate of beer in? You can make it work for you if you don’t buy too much, re-arrange things all the time and defrost it occasionally. 

That’s the BT router of fridges.

Post edited at 23:40
 freeflyer 09 Jan 2021
In reply to MG:

You have no clue, clearly, so swallow your pride and get someone in who knows what they’re doing. I have to do this with plumbing, but not with tech because that’s my business. A man has to know his limitations.

Stay well.

1
 mondite 09 Jan 2021
In reply to MG:

>  If a car or fridge was similar, we would reject them 

You are comparing a single entity from a single company against a whole range of entities from a host of different companies. Do you reject your car because other cars crash?

I would also mention that cars are now ending up with more and more complex computer functionality in them and, sadly, the car companies are proving if anything more inept at integrating it since they have looked at the last few decades of improvements in software design and gone sod that lets start from scratch. Hence why you get cars being stolen since the security is appalling.

1
 Rob Parsons 09 Jan 2021
In reply to MG:

> Wifi is crap, I've decided ...  The printer won't connect.  The scanner needs a password every time. ...

WiFi is fine if it's properly set up and configured.

However, it's designed for mobile devices and a wired connection for statically-located things like printers and scanners will always be better (and easier for the layman to set up.) Why have you consciously chosen to use WiFi for those?

4
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> However, it's designed for mobile devices

Not true. WiFi is merely wireless access ethernet (hence being defined by the IEEE803.x series of specifications). For those occasions where you don't want to have to run cat5/6 cable everywhere.

It's perfectly reasonable to use WiFi for devices that are a permanent part of your LAN. You can even assign static IP addresses for them (and I would recommend that you do). Some devices intended for permanent installation dont even have wired ethernet ports; security cameras, Hive-like devices, etc 

Provided those devices remember the SSID and password (credentials) of your router's wireless access point, and you don't change those router details, these devices should reconnect to the router's WAP every time they boot up. If they ask for the password each time, it probably means a problem with the credentials storage in that device; bad battery/supercar or storage device.

I can connect mobile, wired, ethernet devices (e.g. laptop or netbook) to my LAN, disconnect them, and take them elsewhere, and connect to another LAN, i.e. they are a mobile device. Devices used in this way (wired or wireless) should not be set to a static IP address; they should be set to use DHCP to get an IP address from whichever LAN they are connected to.

Post edited at 02:41
1
 The Lemming 09 Jan 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

I much preferred the reply that you deleted last night, which had two possible causes.

I learned my lesson years ago about flakey Wi-Fi access using either cheap PC World type routers or the ones offered by Internet providers. Such devices made me angry with all the connection problems I continually faced.

I then bit the proverbial bullet and bought a router from a reputable company and from my perspective, very expensive. It was the price of a budget laptop.

Never had a problem with it. I also have a Virgin Media router plugged into it, set up as a modem because I'm on Cable. The free/supplied router is the only bit of kit that occasionally gives me problems.

Even buying a router that is one or two generations old will be infinitely better than a router provided by an Internet company. And such purchases of older routers can be obscenely cheap on eBay.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

> Why have you consciously chosen to use WiFi for those?

a) because they say they are designed to and sold as such (cables are extra) b) fewer messy wires.

In reply to The Lemming:

Thanks I'll try, reluctantly as yet more money and time.

Post edited at 09:03
 The Lemming 09 Jan 2021
In reply to MG:

> I'll try.

I genuinely understand your pain when the Wi-Fi does not play nicely.

What router do you have and what are the most important things you need to connect to it either wired or wireless?

In reply to The Lemming:

> What router do you have and what are the most important things you need to connect to it either wired or wireless?

It came with Plusnet. PC, phone (both fine), printer, scanner, Hive (all problematic). As above this is why I am sceptical the router is really the problem. 

Even more annoying  is don't actually want the Hive. I can turn it on and off manually. But since the plumber supplied it, its infuriating it doesnt do what it claims.

 Toby_W 09 Jan 2021
In reply to MG:

I feel the same about cars mate they need different types of go juice and now some plug in and they have other go juice that is important and they all have other go juice that is particular to each model, it’s a nightmare.

For my wifi kit I just spent 20-30 minutes online and now all my family and friends ask me to set theirs up as they think I’m an expert.  Mmm, actually find a friend or family member and ask them,  my solutions sucks big time 😂😂😂

Cheers

Toby

1
In reply to MG:

> It came with Plusnet. PC, phone (both fine), printer, scanner, Hive (all problematic). As above this is why I am sceptical the router is really the problem. 

> Even more annoying  is don't actually want the Hive. I can turn it on and off manually. But since the plumber supplied it, its infuriating it doesnt do what it claims.

Apologies, my post above about the hive is complete bollocks! I assumed it worked the same as a nest. WiFi may not be your problem with the hive.

The hive has 3 parts (or should have). The thermostat which goes on the wall, the ‘receiver’ which has the relays in and goes next to your boiler and the ‘hub’ which plugs into your router directly with a network cable. It doesn’t use WiFi, it has its own radio connection between the different devices. 

It won’t work correctly if it’s not connected to the internet because it needs to access to the weather forecast to do the smart prediction stuff.

Post edited at 10:25
 Rob Parsons 09 Jan 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

> ... WiFi is merely wireless access ethernet (hence being defined by the IEEE803.x series of specifications). For those occasions where you don't want to have to run cat5/6 cable everywhere.

> It's perfectly reasonable to use WiFi for devices that are a permanent part of your LAN. You can even assign static IP addresses for them  ...

I'm well aware of all that; but it has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.

 Rob Parsons 09 Jan 2021
In reply to MG:

> a) because they say they are designed to and sold as such (cables are extra) b) fewer messy wires.


A wired ethernet connection for a device which is located statically on a desk makes much more sense than does a wireless ethernet connection. And you will find that it 'just works.'

If the lack of 'messy cables' is important to you, then fair enough: you'll have to make the wifi work as you want it. But that's a choice.

As for the Hive thing: why are you buying things you don't want?

 Cobra_Head 09 Jan 2021
In reply to MG:

> I know you are trying to be helpful but this is *exactly* my complaint. I shouldn't have to worry about  what Ghz I am using and waste hours on it.


Why should you worry about what side of the road you drive on?

We currently have 18 devices connected over three floors, all through the standard router supplied by Plusnet.

Put a little time in and you should be able to manage it. Good luck

Maybe you could post screen shots of the wireless setup.

Post edited at 11:58
 CurlyStevo 09 Jan 2021
In reply to MG:

I’ve not been impressed with the free routers I’ve had with broadband. Even the bt smart hub I got recently with a new account wasn’t a patch on my 100 odd quid tp link I got a few years ago. So I just use my old router. Do make sure you read the reviews though before buying.  I think 100 is the minimum worth spending on a router 

Post edited at 20:16
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> I’ve not been impressed with the free routers I’ve had with broadband. 

The technicolor 582 I got with Tesco had decent facilities, and gave me very little trouble.

The Sagemcom thing I've had from TalkTalk is a piece of shit, but I understand that is down to the custom TT firmware; I'd put in the pre-alpha release stage. I even considered contacting Sagemcom to see if I could install their own generic firmware, on the basis of the reputational damage the TT firmware was doing to Sagemcom...

 Tony Buckley 09 Jan 2021
In reply to MG:

I agree with your sentiment, though your problem really comes from installing a device you don't really need.  A standard thermostat and central heating controller will do the job you need doing far more often than not.

Regarding wi-fi generally, early last year I had a pair of Ethernet cables run round the outside of the house to allow me to connect the router to the home office with wired connections. Though the original intention was to give the home PC and NAS wired connections, this rapidly turned into connections for the home PC and my wife's laptop now she works from home.  The last point means that this has more than proved its worth since it was installed.

T.

 The Lemming 09 Jan 2021
In reply to MG:

Just thought I'd mention my setup. I am a Virgin user and have the Superhub provided by Virgin. This bit of kit gets a fair-to-middling review however I have bought my own router for a specific purpose. Sadly the router I bought is not compatible with cable and is designed for standard broadband coming into the house through a telephone wire.

To get around this I turned the Virgin Superhub into "modem mode" only and nothing else. This allows me to send the Cable Broadband to my router which is far superior in build and capabilities. I also chose a router that could have its internal software deleted and replaced with even more customisable software to give even more functionality. Such a process immediately invalidates the warranty and if done wrong creates a lovely plastic brick costing three figures.

I like to use a company that provides a virtual private network. This is not because I want to be anonymous on the internet, because this is virtually impossibly, I just want my privacy so that I don't get targeted adverts or people snooping on what sites I visit. We close our doors and curtains to stop people looking into our homes, so why can't I do the same with my on-line life?

My Virtual Private Network company allows me to put an app onto my computer to then encrypt everything I do on-line. The problem is that quite a lot of devices at home connect both wired and wirelessly and not all of them can take advantage of this application for many reasons. And I'm only allowed to connect 5 devices at a time which is a problem. And what if I forget to start the app on my phone or tablet while surfing the internet?

The Virtual Private network company does actively allow me to configure a Router to encrypt all my internet stuff, provided I use a Router capable of this skill, and this means that everything in the house which goes through my Router is encrypted whether or not I remember this feature. I just had to research a suitable Router and appropriate software to put onto that Router and, I was off to the races. I also had to choose a Router powerful enough to do the number crunching of the encryption process and not reduce all this to a crawl and spoil my internet speed/enjoyment. As of yet I have not reached that number crunching bottleneck and I'm getting upto 100GBs speeds.

Happy days.

😀

A bit OTT for something that many people think is irrelevant. Its that irrelevant that your employer does the same thing when you log onto their networks so that snoopers can't snoop sensitive information.

Or I may just be paranoid and better investing in a tin-foil hat.

 CurlyStevo 09 Jan 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

I live in a flat and having a good router makes a lot of difference compared with a house.

 CurlyStevo 09 Jan 2021
In reply to Tony Buckley:

I have hive and it’s been superb.

 deepsoup 09 Jan 2021
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> I have hive and it’s been superb.

Same here.  Turning the heating on when I'm ready to head for home and arriving to a toasty warm house is a real treat.

The bandwidth is sometimes pretty crowded, before spending money on a new router perhaps it would be worth downloading a free 'wifi analyser' app for a smartphone and having a look to see if there are several different devices all trying to use the same channel at the same time.

 freeflyer 09 Jan 2021
In reply to MG:

I feel guilty about not being particularly helpful in my post last night.

I have a Plusnet router too, and it's a good thing, insofar as it goes, to the extent that I haven't got around to replacing it with my proper one. It should be fine for your purposes.

I'm not getting involved with the Hive and my advice is to turn it off or get the plumber back, but really the best cheapest quickest and least hassle way to solve the printer/scanner issue unless you do *loads* of printing is to get a new printer/scanner for £35:

https://www.argos.co.uk/search/canon-printer/?clickOrigin=searchbar:home:term:canon+printer
https://www.argos.co.uk/search/hp-printer/?clickOrigin=searchbar:home:term:hp+printer

You can probably get the existing ones to work if you beat your head into a pulp on internet searches for printer drivers for obsolete kit, and occasionally I go this route out of obstinacy; I don't recommend it. Also you will get fleeced for the printer ink, but your life will go on, as my brother sometimes remarks.

ff

In reply to Rob Parsons

> If the lack of 'messy cables' is important to you, then fair enough: you'll have to make the wifi work as you want it. But that's a choice.

My point is I shouldn’t have to. It should just work too. Or at least not claim to when it clearly doesn’t.

> As for the Hive thing: why are you buying things you don't want?

Fixed price contract and it appeared 

Post edited at 22:02
In reply to freeflyer:

> I'm not getting involved with the Hive and my advice is to turn it off or get the plumber back, but really the best cheapest quickest and least hassle way to solve the printer/scanner issue unless you do *loads* of printing is to get a new printer/scanner for £35:

Sorry this is nuts. Why should I need to buy a printer annually!? Ignoring the waste aspect. The bloody thing should work without me needing to endlessly update software and search on the internet of obscure information.

2
 freeflyer 09 Jan 2021
In reply to MG:

Jolly good. Time to continue beating your head into a pulp then. Enjoy

1
In reply to freeflyer:

> Jolly good. Time to continue beating your head into a pulp then. Enjoy

Well you seem to be agreeing with my OP, which is welcome!

2
 d508934 09 Jan 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

I’d never heard of a wifi analyser until seeing this post. Just tried one and have no idea what it’s telling me! Is there one that is aimed at the layman or do they all require more than average IT competency?? 

 freeflyer 10 Jan 2021
In reply to d508934:

Just look at signal strength. The main things you are interested are the following:

Do you have a good signal in bedroom X (etc)?

Are there any neighbours whose wifis are interfering with mine?

Priority 1: locate the wifi router so it has line of sight horizontally or vertically to where you need a good signal. Avoid signal travelling through walls, *especially* diagonally.

Priority 2: add repeaters (beyond the scope of this post)  to mitigate any problems.

Priority 3: if it still doesn't work very well, engage a young relative or professional to help you. Do not under-estimate young relatives; in normal times, they have the hive mind of the entire school available to solve problems.

 Rob Parsons 10 Jan 2021
In reply to MG:

> My point is I shouldn’t have to. It should just work too. Or at least not claim to when it clearly doesn’t.

You don't have to; I was just offering you my professional advice.

Wifi works well in general, but it requires correct configuration as well as reasonable quality implementations. (I.e. don't blame other people if you buy crappy stuff, or if you don't know how to use what you have.)

Good luck.

Post edited at 00:01
 Rob Parsons 10 Jan 2021
In reply to d508934:

> I’d never heard of a wifi analyser until seeing this post. Just tried one and have no idea what it’s telling me! Is there one that is aimed at the layman or do they all require more than average IT competency?? 


Essentially you are interested in channel usage, interference (including cross-channel interference), and signal strength. Bear in mind that, unless you are very lucky, you will be picking up wifi signals from sources other your own router.

Beyond that, bear in mind that wifi uses unlicenced frequency bands: plenty of non-wifi devices will be polluting the same wavelengths, and can be tricky to track down.

 Cobra_Head 10 Jan 2021
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> I live in a flat and having a good router makes a lot of difference compared with a house.


Why? Surely a house with more floors, doors, and walls would make signals weaker.

 Cobra_Head 10 Jan 2021
In reply to d508934:

For Android, I use Wifi analyzer (weird that eh?) by Abdelrahman.

It show wifi signals the phone can pick up, and shows signal strength and channel information. Your router will have an SSID, they come pre-set but you can change them to anything you want, it'll be on the router somewhere

Hopefully you be seeing your router SSID the largest of any other, and on a separate channel to any others the phone is picking up.

If it isn't play around with moving the router and changing the channel.

If your phone and router are capable you can select 2.4GHz and 5GHz displays, 5GHz is better if you can use it, but lacks the distance / penetration of 2.4GHz so that's swings and roundabouts.

There are plenty of people willing to help, though it can be a bit long winded through text.

 Cobra_Head 10 Jan 2021
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> You don't have to; I was just offering you my professional advice.

> Wifi works well in general, but it requires correct configuration as well as reasonable quality implementations. (I.e. don't blame other people if you buy crappy stuff, or if you don't know how to use what you have.)

Driving a car in first gear all the time, because you don't know how to change gear

In reply to freeflyer:

> but your life will go on, as my Brother sometimes remarks.

Your printer givs you philosophical life tips...?

 freeflyer 10 Jan 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

> but your life will go on, as my Brother sometimes remarks.

It makes me laugh, because when he says "life goes on", actually he would rather it didn't, much like the OP, since he has just been irritatingly defeated by some bastard piece of software. Sometimes it also applies to the wife's pronouncements....

 CurlyStevo 10 Jan 2021
In reply to Cobra_Head:

Nope, the biggest problem for WiFi is getting clean signals in flats there is a lot of contention between the flats especially on 2.4 ghz and many devices are still only 2.4 ghz. The issue in houses is largely a solved problem  now a days (WiFi mesh etc)

 CurlyStevo 10 Jan 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

True analysing the bands would probably be worth doing but I’ve also just not been impressed with the WiFi strength of cheap routers. Looking at the bands normally doesn’t get me a good clean signal. That said I use mine for gaming too where it’s more important.

 Andy Gamisou 10 Jan 2021
In reply to Steve Clark:

> A hive works on 2.4 & 5ghz. If it’s away from the router it may be connecting on 5ghz intermittently (it doesn’t work well through walls). See if you can change it to 2.4ghz. Or you may have 2.4ghz (802.11b) turned off on the router. BT hubs can have two different SSIDs for 2.4 & 5. Check which one it’s connected to. 2.4 propagates further but slower, 5 is faster but doesn’t penetrate walls so well.

Pretty sure you've just proved his point.  As has RP with his condescending tone.

Post edited at 05:52
 Cobra_Head 10 Jan 2021
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> Nope, the biggest problem for WiFi is getting clean signals in flats there is a lot of contention between the flats especially on 2.4 ghz and many devices are still only 2.4 ghz. The issue in houses is largely a solved problem  now a days (WiFi mesh etc)


But that's only an issue if lots of routers are using the same channel, a quick look on an analyser will soon tell you that. You have 14+ to choose from on 2.4GHz and 2 or 3 will easily share a channel without issue. So that's 28-42 routers worth.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

> don't blame other people if you buy crappy stuff, or if you don't know how to use what you have

You're missing the point. How is the average consumer supposed to know if something isn't going to work? A new crap car isn't so crap that it doesn't start, it's just not as big/fast/efficient/convenient/pretty as a good one.

The minimum quality standard of electronic gear is too low. I bought a really cheap laptop as a backup/additional device, and it literally can't run the operating system it came with installed. The TV in the kitchen quite frequently loses all contact with the WiFi and I have to set it up from scratch. Am I supposed to know that I'd have to spend another £100, £200, £500 for one that doesn't fail every week or so? Or is it the router's fault? How am I supposed to know?

2
 Rob Parsons 10 Jan 2021
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> You're missing the point.

I think you're missing the point.

If, for example, 'the scanner needs a password every time' then either: it's designed like that, it's misconfigured, or it's defective. (You will need to RTFM to discover which of those options is true.)

If it's designed like that, and the OP has nevertheless bought it - well ...; if it's misconfigured, spend time to RTFM and get that sorted out; if it's defective, take it up with the seller. But howling at the moon that 'wifi is rubbish!' won't get you anywhere.

I have already given the general pragmatic workaround of using a wired connection (always the best option for a device which is permanently sitting in one place), so I think I will leave it at that.

As for your comment 'I bought a really cheap laptop as a backup/additional device, and it literally can't run the operating system it came with installed' - if that claim is literally true, take it up with the seller.

Post edited at 10:37
1
 Si dH 10 Jan 2021
In reply to MG:

> I know you are trying to be helpful but this is *exactly* my complaint. I shouldn't have to worry about  what Ghz I am using and waste hours on it.

For what it's worth I agree with this and all of your first post. There are a lot of people on the forum who are very into IT and don't see the problem, but unfortunately the majority of the population aren't. Whenever I get a new broadband supplier and/or a new router there are issues with it that take me time to resolve. I have always worked it out but this is a massive barrier for people who are less confident with technology. I suspect it's purposeful policy from the providers (or at least, they are not incentivised to fix it) - it's a significant deterrent to people to switch, meaning they can gradually ramp up prices. These things really should be plug n' play.

Post edited at 11:19
 CurlyStevo 10 Jan 2021
In reply to Cobra_Head:

There are only 3 useable channels on 2.4 Ghz wifi try reading up on it, its really bad news to use anything but 1,6,11. My experience in flats is 2 or 3 sharing a channel on 2.4 ghz causes some pretty poor results.

For 4.8g it depends but most free routers don't have many either. In every flat I've lived in for years all the 2.4 ghz channels are really full up and even the common 4.8g ones can be too.

I've been using wifi analyzer for years btw.

Post edited at 13:15
 freeflyer 10 Jan 2021
In reply to Si dH:

> unfortunately the majority of the population aren't

This thread reminds me a lot of discussions overheard in my local garage while waiting to check in or pick up my car. The service staff spout the gobbledy-gook supplied by the engineers, the customer grumbles, but is otherwise content to pay the money to get a result. The consumer automobile business is about 90 years into its life, while the computer business is about 50 years behind that. I think it's doing pretty well considering.

Cars have *almost* got to the point where they are plug and play, however posters over 60 will certainly remember being told off by their dad for complaining that their car won't start and not looking at their plugs and points, and the panic on the first freezing night of the winter swearing at the radiator bottom hose while trying to get antifreeze in.

I was asked to install a sound bar for my bubble mates over Christmas. The internet experts said it was easy to install, but there were no instructions and the packaging said download the app. I checked the plugs and points and poured in some antifreeze, and it sprang into life and was an extremely cool gadget which could even figure out if it was a TV sound bar or a wifi music speaker for their phones and tablets.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

> I think you're missing the point.

> If, for example, 'the scanner needs a password every time' then either: it's designed like that, it's misconfigured, or it's defective. (You will need to RTFM to discover which of those options is true.)

> If it's designed like that, and the OP has nevertheless bought it - well ...; if it's misconfigured, spend time to RTFM 

Are you this obnoxious in real life? There,  isn't a manual. 

> I have already given the general pragmatic workaround of using a wired connection 

I dont want a work around. I want what I paid for to work. Yes I know I can in theory return, sue them etc. but that is more wasted time.

3
 d508934 10 Jan 2021
In reply to Cobra_Head:

Thanks. Any app suggestions for apple?

Also interested in any suggestions for alternative routers to the one you get for free, always a bit suspicious of those as others have said. In case it’s relevant I’m switching to Shell energy fibre in a couple of weeks (no idea what spec the router they provide is)

In reply to Rob Parsons:

> As for your comment 'I bought a really cheap laptop as a backup/additional device, and it literally can't run the operating system it came with installed' - if that claim is literally true, take it up with the seller.

What a strange argument. It is literally true - after a few months use, because I wanted to do a system restore, and couldn't. Outright not possible with the hardware (at least using the usual Windows functions). I don't see how telling me to take it up with Argos refutes my point that the minimum standard for the product was too low: it didn't work, and got sold to me anyway.

2
 Cobra_Head 11 Jan 2021
In reply to d508934:

> Thanks. Any app suggestions for apple?

Sorry I know nothing about Apple stuff.

> Also interested in any suggestions for alternative routers to the one you get for free, always a bit suspicious of those as others have said. In case it’s relevant I’m switching to Shell energy fibre in a couple of weeks (no idea what spec the router they provide is)

I had an expensive router at first, but went back to the supplied one as there didn't seem to be much difference.


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