UKC

Ok what would be the best climbs in Soctland up to HVS and where are they? Here is my list, feel free to change/add to it (I only climb to easy VS atm so I have no HVS's):

=== Diff ===
Tower Ridge - Ben Nevis

=== V.Diff ===
Agags Groove - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Lady Gully - Bauchaille Etive Mor

=== Severe ===
Ardverikie Wall - Binnein Shuas

=== Hard Severe ===
Central Crack - Upper North West Crag, Glen Clova

=== Very Severe ===
Proud Corner - Lower North West Crag, Glen Clova
The End - Polney Crag, Dunkeld

=== HVS ===

In reply to Daniel: Oh and if we can keep the routes to trad only (either single pitch or multi pitch).

Cheers,

Daniel

In reply to Daniel: Best HVS : Minus One Direct - with the variations. No Contest.

In reply to Daniel:

Diff - Tower Ridge or Pinnacle Ridge on Sgurr nan Gillean

VDiff - agree with Agag's

Severe - Eagle Ridge, Lochnagar

Hard Severe - Talisman, Creagan a Coire Etchachan (although Central Crack is excellent too. I think it's on the SE Crag, btw)

VS - Hy Brasil, at Reiff or Fallen Star at Logie Head

HVS - Sip From the Wine of Youth Again, at Reiff

In reply to Daniel:

You won't get any arguments from me about Tower Ridge, Ardverikie Wall or even the relatively unsung Central Crack. I'd have to say however that for overall experience not to mention quality of climbing The Old Man of Stoer is in another league to mere outcrop climbs at VS. Curious about Lady's Gully on the Buachaille however; never heard anyone tell of an ascent - tell me more! Think that Agag's is somewhat flawed as a truly great VDiff; 2 of the 4 pitches are a bit scrambly and what starts as a strong line peters out and becomes indistinct after the nose. I'd get a bit controversial and propose January Jigsaw instead; more sustained but never Severe IMHO.

JAMIE B>

In reply to Stuart S:VS: South Ridge Direct, Mousetrap, Fionn Buttress even Sword of Gideon, Jamie B's o' Stoer, yeah.
HVS:Centurion, Bludgers, Vulcan Wall,,, the list goes on.

In reply to Daniel:The Edge, Loudon Hill at VS a wee cracka..

In reply to Daniel:

couple of additions to the list if I may?

HS - 'Resurrection', Polldubh.
VS - 'Spartan Slab', Etive.

In reply to Jamie B.: Its quite good climb some nice chimneys, we got benighted though as getting off the hill proved to be quite entertaining (read epic) a case of leaving car at 10am on Saturday and getting back at about 2:30am on Sunday :-S

The complete beginner we had with it seemed to take it quite well apart from the short time she looked like she was going hypothermic....

Daniel

In reply to jo: Go for it I did not mean for there to be only one climb in each section, I ment for there to be more than one, so we can have the pick of the routes at HS and VS etc...

So please feel free to add more routes to the list people! I need a summer tick list anyway :P

Daniel

In reply to Danielregardin' lady's Gully, ooerr..)

In reply to jo:

with you on Spartan Slab, Jo, truly wonderful climb.

In reply to Daniel: A couple for you on Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Cioch Nose-(V-Diff)
Sword of Gideon-(VS)

Oh, and Pobble(VS) on Foinaven, if only because I've been there!

In reply to Jamie B.:

Not that you would try and compare the two completely different types of climb of course.

In reply to jo:naw you couldnae compare a better experience with a mere experience.

In reply to Jamie B.:

I'd get a bit controversial and propose January Jigsaw instead; more sustained but never Severe IMHO.

In reply to Chris:

naww.. it roar lik a bullaa

In reply to matador: Aye, best VS, Excaliburahhhhh...ayeeahhhhhh

In reply to Sparkles: Yeah baby good choice =). I was going to suggest that one....okay I haven't climbed north of Glasgow but hell The Edge stands up on it's own merits.

I know it's only one pitch, but Pain Pillar at Aberdour VS 4c is truly awesome. I do it ever time I go there, without fail. Call me boring...

South Ridge Direct - probably the one on Cir Mhor, Arran, VS 5a, I think

Centurion - Carn Dearg, The Ben
Bludgers - The Buachaille

=== Climbs Needing locations and/or grades ===
January Jigsaw The Buachaille

In reply to ytrty: Ok here is the revised list, still needing more lower grade stuff:

=== Diff ===
Tower Ridge - Ben Nevis
Pinnacle Ridge - Sgurr nan Gillean

=== V.Diff ===
Agags Groove - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Lady Gully - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Cioch Nose - Sgurr A'Chaorachain

=== Severe ===
Ardverikie Wall - Binnein Shuas
Eagle Ridge - Lochnagar
January Jigsaw - Bauchaille Etive Mor

=== Hard Severe ===
Central Crack - Upper SE Crag, Glen Clova
Talisman - Creagan a Coire Etchachan
'Resurrection' - Polldubh

=== Very Severe ===
Proud Corner - Lower North West Crag, Glen Clova
The End - Polney Crag, Dunkeld
Hy Brasil - Reiff
Fallen Star - Logie Head
The Edge - Loudon Hill
'Spartan Slab' - Etive
Sword of Gideon - Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Pain Pillar - Aberdour
South Ridge Direct - Cir Mhor, Arran
Mousetrap - Creag an Dubh Loch
The Old Man - Old Man of Stoer
Fionn Buttress - ?
Sword of Gideon - ?
Jamie B's o' Stoer - ?

=== HVS ===
Sip From the Wine of Youth Again - Reiff
Centurion - Carn Dearg, The Ben
Bludgers - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Vulcan Wall - ?

=== Climbs Needing locations and/or grades ===
Excaliburahhhhh,
The Edge

In reply to Daniel:
But there's almost nothing from the Cairngorms, how about
The Needle (Shelterstone, HVS)
Djibangi (Etchachan VS)
Talisman (Etchachan, S)

In reply to Doug: added! any more routes? Still a bit thin on everything apart from VS. I'll put on the new list once we get some more suggestions.

Daniel

In reply to Daniel: For overall experience I would say Observatory Ridge early in the summer season is better than Agags or Jan Jig at VDiff, the climbing might not be as sustained, but it is like an alpine route, particularly negotiating the bergschrund to get on to it.

Can't believe no one has said Integrity as the best sev/hs/vs depending on your point of view. Old Man of Stoer though gets my vote for best VS.

Stuff at Polldubh, Reiff, let alone Lowden Hill - despite being good can never compare to a big high mountain route.

In reply to TobyA: OK thanks for that I will leave the other routes in atm till we have more routes (10+ maybe) in each section then we can try and sort out the best from the rest...

Daniel

In reply to Daniel:
The Buachaille Etive.

First go up curved ridge noting all the crags and landmarks on the way up and then come down again to do a route on Rannoch Wall, this gives you the knowledge of the descent route from lots of other routes in the mist when competent and saves having to go miles out of your way to find a descent.
Direct Route on Crowberry Ridge will bring you up short on the crux even at severe as it is rather polished but the rest is about vdiff
Agags or January Jigsaw at HVD/severe with Satans Slit a little harder.
D gully buttress is easier but lots of peole get lost on it so if your routefinding is suspect do it early so you are not benighted.

East Face of Aonach Dubh gives several routes between diff and severe, use boots and carry your sack to make a mountain day of it or in winter when the snow is high you can do a route while waiting for the snow to consolidate or freeze.

Etive slabs, do Spartan slab at hard severe to start and get used to the angle of the rock.
Next try Hammer or Swastika, if you like long run outs with poor pro this is where you learn to do it although Hammer is not bad in the corner.

Ben Nevis, Go and do Observatory Buttress and descend the ridge, harder in the wet but in the dry just an easy day out and it lets you see some of the classic routes on either side.
Look at all the easy ridges on the Ben and use some of the easy ones in descent so you know the awkward bits for when you try them in winter.

Skye has hundreds of good routes below vs, just go and explore for yourself, find a bit of rock you fancy and make your way up it. All the first ascentists did that anyway so you will be in good company.

Look at the guide if you get lost and find an easy escape route if it gets too hard, enjoy.

In reply to sutty:


/snip/


Eh??? Jumping straight onto Swastika (E2 5c/6a) would give someone a real fright if they thought it was going to be just a wee bit harder than Spartan! Did you mean The Pause (HVS 5a)?

Hammer's a gem though.

I had a fantastic epic on Swastika, and I still get sweaty palms thinking about it. Blimey. Eech.

See ya,

al

In reply to Al Downie:
I did swastika when it had a peg for pro and it was rated as easier than pause then, of course it was just after PAs were introduced well mid sixties.
Sorry if it frightened you but then I told you to get on Left wall when fit didn't I? Have you yet?

In reply to sutty:

There are still pegs in the last 6a pitch which some folk stand on to drop the grade, but the overlap on the previous pitch is definitely 5c, and there's nothing nearly as hard as that on The Pause. I can't imagine why it was ever rated easier! Where's the peg you're on about, and was it used for aid?

And no, sadly, Left Wall remains on my list. I ought to get back to Wales; only been once, and it was grey & wet, and my brother belayed me from a dead twig somewhere on Dinas Mot, so I don't have a great image of the place in my head...

See ya,

al

In reply to Al Downie: Also Spartan is now given VS not HS, most of it is fine but I found the move over the overlap desperate - if totally safe - and due to a queue forming stood in a sling to do it. *Oh the shame!*

I'm not that short and was onsighting E1 (just) at the time so it wasn't only incompetence - it is actually a tricky move. Many years later I thought the crux of Tody's Wall at Froggart was rather similar.

In reply to TobyA:

HAH! That's the best bit about going to the slabs; watching folk squirming at the overlap on Spartan, and shouting scores up to them. Only awkward if you have a daft policy of never allowing your knees to come into contact with the rock. I used to have such a policy, but now I've seen the light, and I make a point of trying to use my knees on every route. Mark my words, with creative use of the knees, Deliverance *will* be mine...

See ya,

al

In reply to TobyA:
The overlap is awkward but nowhere near as hard as Todys wall, there are holds inside the crackon the RH side. I found doing it for the second time that the funny open groove was the crux as I had got out of the habit of running it out after climbing in the IOM for several years and had to force myself to keep stepping up , same as anyone doing a thin slab really when it is your first time.

In reply to Al Downie: I got 3.8 and thats only because I had bribed the Romanian judge...

I not averse to a bit the ole' knee myself, used one on my first E1 of the year on saturday - have the scabs to prove it and all... but if I remember the overlap on Spartan right it, the lip was about level with my head - I think I tried heel hooking but a knee? No use for me.

Updated list:

=== Diff ===
Tower Ridge - Ben Nevis
Pinnacle Ridge - Sgurr nan Gillean

=== V.Diff ===
Agags Groove - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Lady Gully - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Cioch Nose - Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Observatory Ridge - Ben Nevis

=== Severe ===
Ardverikie Wall - Binnein Shuas
Eagle Ridge - Lochnagar
January Jigsaw - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Talisman - Etchachan, Cairngorms

=== Hard Severe ===
Central Crack - Upper SE Crag, Glen Clova
Talisman - Creagan a Coire Etchachan
'Resurrection' - Polldubh

=== Very Severe ===
Proud Corner - Lower North West Crag, Glen Clova
The End - Polney Crag, Dunkeld
Hy Brasil - Reiff
Fallen Star - Logie Head
The Edge - Loudon Hill
'Spartan Slab' - Etive
Sword of Gideon - Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Pain Pillar - Aberdour
South Ridge Direct - Cir Mhor, Arran
Mousetrap - Creag an Dubh Loch
The Old Man - Old Man of Stoer
Djibangi - Etchachan, Cairngorms
Fionn Buttress - ?
Sword of Gideon - ?
Jamie B's o' Stoer - ?

=== HVS ===
Sip From the Wine of Youth Again - Reiff
Centurion - Carn Dearg, The Ben
Bludgers - Bauchaille Etive Mor
The Needle - Shelterstone, Cairngorms
Vulcan Wall - ?

=== Climbs Needing locations and/or grades ===
Excaliburahhhhh,
The Edge

In reply to Daniel: the Edge is on Loudon Hill south of Glasgow, near the amusingly named Moscow. "Jamie B's o' Stoer" was a joke refering to the Old Man of Stoer. Fionn Buttress is on Carnmore Crag. Sword of Gideon is on the crag above the Bealach na Bah - but I can't remember the name, I thought it was HVS? I must be confused...

In reply to Daniel:

Sword of Gideon, Ben Bahn (sp), Diabaig

Excalibur, Garbh Bheinn, VS (if thats the one he/she is on about).

In reply to Daniel: Sword of Gideon is on Sgurr A'Chaorachain on the crag right bt the road. Its def. a VS.

Whats happened to my suggestion of Pobble(VS) on Foinaven?

In reply to Daniel:
I was under the impression that the Needle is an E1, albeit low in the grade.
Can't give any other thoughts as not done much (yet!) in bonny scotland.

In reply to Working Class Dave: also Cengalo, severe 1st Dionard Buttress, Marble Corner HVS 3rd Dionard Buttress at Foinavon, Integrity Severe,and Dawn Grooves VS, Skye.
Butterknife, Severe Garbh Bheinn, East Buttress, Diff, Beinn Eighe, Bull Roar,HVS, the Ben, Bludgers Revelation HVS, Slime Wall.

In reply to Daniel: Where is this Soctland?

Most of the routes listed are in Scotland.

In reply to Working Class Dave: Sorry I missed that, I've done that a couple of times today (apologies to anyone else I have done it too, mail me if I miss anything), it should be in now. The Edge still needs a grade and vulcan wall needs its location. VS is still the most popular grade. Here is the latest version of the list:

=== Diff ===
Tower Ridge - Ben Nevis
Pinnacle Ridge - Sgurr nan Gillean
East Buttress - Beinn Eighe

=== V.Diff ===
Agags Groove - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Lady Gully - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Cioch Nose - Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Observatory Ridge - Ben Nevis

=== Severe ===
Ardverikie Wall - Binnein Shuas
Eagle Ridge - Lochnagar
January Jigsaw - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Talisman - Etchachan, Cairngorms
Cengalo - 1st Dionard Buttress
Integrity - Skye
Butterknife - Garbh Bheinn

=== Hard Severe ===
Central Crack - Upper SE Crag, Glen Clova
Talisman - Creagan a Coire Etchachan
'Resurrection' - Polldubh

=== Very Severe ===
Proud Corner - Lower North West Crag, Glen Clova
The End - Polney Crag, Dunkeld
Hy Brasil - Reiff
Fallen Star - Logie Head
The Edge - Loudon Hill
'Spartan Slab' - Etive
Sword of Gideon - Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Pain Pillar - Aberdour
South Ridge Direct - Cir Mhor, Arran
Mousetrap - Creag an Dubh Loch
The Old Man - Old Man of Stoer
Djibangi - Etchachan, Cairngorms
Fionn Buttress - Carnmore Crag
Sword of Gideon - Ben Bahn (sp), Diabaig
Excalibur - Garbh Bheinn
Pobble - Foinaven
Dawn Grooves - Skye

=== HVS ===
Sip From the Wine of Youth Again - Reiff
Centurion - Carn Dearg, The Ben
Bludgers - Bauchaille Etive Mor
The Needle - Shelterstone, Cairngorms
Marble Corner - 3rd Dionard Buttress at Foinavon
Bull Roar - the Ben
Bludgers Revelation - Slime Wall, Bauchaille Etive Mor
Vulcan Wall - ?

=== Climbs Needing locations and/or grades ===
The Edge - Loudon Hill

In reply to Anonymous: LOL I missed that the joys of being dyslexic (or how ever you spell it) and all that. I guess we need a spell checker in the forums or a way to edit your own posts.

Daniel

In reply to Daniel:
You can edit your own messages, read them before posting then click on preview and if it does not look right you can go back and edit it as much as you want before posting.
The preview button is to the left of the submit message

In reply to sutty:

Inbred - Creag Dubh HVS!!!!!

In reply to Scott Galbraith:
I hope that is a route and not an insult otherwise it is pistols at dawn, or a bit later if you wouldn't mind awfully.

In reply to Daniel:

I'm suprised no one has mentioned Calliban's Creep (diff) and Sou'wester Slabs (VDiff) On Chir Mor, Arran.

Also The Cobbler has a wonderful variety of routes around the severe standard, Punster's Crack being the most famous.

In reply to Removed User:

Not to mention Savage Slit.

What a great place Scotland is...

See ya,

al

In reply to Removed User:
I can only recommend routes that I have personal knowledge of unless they are of a low non contentious grade in an area I know.
I should think it is the same for others when asked for personal recommendations.

In reply to Scott Galbraith:
yes, how did I forget that one.

In reply to TobyA:

agree with you completely on Spartan Slab....the move to pass the overlap would be 5a in the Peak, reminded me of Tody's Wall too.

Ok here is the latest version of list (still got two routes without grades and two without locations):

=== Diff ===
Tower Ridge - Ben Nevis
Pinnacle Ridge - Sgurr nan Gillean
East Buttress - Beinn Eighe
Calliban's Creep - Chir Mor, Arran

=== V.Diff ===
Agags Groove - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Lady Gully - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Cioch Nose - Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Observatory Ridge - Ben Nevis
Sou'wester Slabs - Chir Mor, Arran

=== Severe ===
Ardverikie Wall - Binnein Shuas
Eagle Ridge - Lochnagar
January Jigsaw - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Talisman - Etchachan, Cairngorms
Cengalo - 1st Dionard Buttress
Integrity - Skye
Butterknife - Garbh Bheinn
Punster's Crack - The Cobbler

=== Hard Severe ===
Central Crack - Upper SE Crag, Glen Clova
Talisman - Creagan a Coire Etchachan
'Resurrection' - Polldubh

=== Very Severe ===
Proud Corner - Lower North West Crag, Glen Clova
The End - Polney Crag, Dunkeld
Hy Brasil - Reiff
Fallen Star - Logie Head
The Edge - Loudon Hill
'Spartan Slab' - Etive
Sword of Gideon - Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Pain Pillar - Aberdour
South Ridge Direct - Cir Mhor, Arran
Mousetrap - Creag an Dubh Loch
The Old Man - Old Man of Stoer
Djibangi - Etchachan, Cairngorms
Fionn Buttress - Carnmore Crag
Sword of Gideon - Ben Bahn (sp), Diabaig
Excalibur - Garbh Bheinn
Pobble - Foinaven
Dawn Grooves - Skye

=== HVS ===
Sip From the Wine of Youth Again - Reiff
Centurion - Carn Dearg, The Ben
Bludgers - Bauchaille Etive Mor
The Needle - Shelterstone, Cairngorms
Marble Corner - 3rd Dionard Buttress at Foinavon
Bull Roar - the Ben
Bludgers Revelation - Slime Wall, Bauchaille Etive Mor
Inbred - Creag Dubh
Vulcan Wall - ?

=== Climbs Needing locations and/or grades ===
The Edge - Loudon Hill
Savage Slit - ?

In reply to Daniel:

Savage Slit - Severe - Coire an Lochain, Cairngorms.

In reply to Daniel:
Surprising - No mention of routes in the Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird.
Well worth the walk-in for a truly remote mountaineering experience.Good howffs nearby. You could do the 3 routes below in a day.

Mitre Ridge *** (severe 500')
Squareface ***(classic Patey v.dif)
Cumming Crofton Route *** (severe 500')

In reply to Daniel:In addition....Arrow Route (VDiff) on the Cioch Slabs in Skye. Good climbing and a wonderful finish scrambling on to the Cioch itself.

crawf

Latest version:

=== Diff ===
Tower Ridge - Ben Nevis
Pinnacle Ridge - Sgurr nan Gillean
East Buttress - Beinn Eighe
Calliban's Creep - Chir Mor, Arran

=== V.Diff ===
Agags Groove - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Lady Gully - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Cioch Nose - Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Observatory Ridge - Ben Nevis
Sou'wester Slabs - Chir Mor, Arran
Squareface - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird
Arrow Route - Cioch Slabs, Skye

=== Severe ===
Ardverikie Wall - Binnein Shuas
Eagle Ridge - Lochnagar
January Jigsaw - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Talisman - Etchachan, Cairngorms
Cengalo - 1st Dionard Buttress
Integrity - Skye
Butterknife - Garbh Bheinn
Punster's Crack - The Cobbler
Savage Slit - Coire an Lochain, Cairngorms.
Mitre Ridge - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird
Cumming Crofton Route - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird

=== Hard Severe ===
Central Crack - Upper SE Crag, Glen Clova
Talisman - Creagan a Coire Etchachan
'Resurrection' - Polldubh

=== Very Severe ===
Proud Corner - Lower North West Crag, Glen Clova
The End - Polney Crag, Dunkeld
Hy Brasil - Reiff
Fallen Star - Logie Head
The Edge - Loudon Hill
'Spartan Slab' - Etive
Sword of Gideon - Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Pain Pillar - Aberdour
South Ridge Direct - Cir Mhor, Arran
Mousetrap - Creag an Dubh Loch
The Old Man - Old Man of Stoer
Djibangi - Etchachan, Cairngorms
Fionn Buttress - Carnmore Crag
Sword of Gideon - Ben Bahn (sp), Diabaig
Excalibur - Garbh Bheinn
Pobble - Foinaven
Dawn Grooves - Skye

=== HVS ===
Sip From the Wine of Youth Again - Reiff
Centurion - Carn Dearg, The Ben
Bludgers - Bauchaille Etive Mor
The Needle - Shelterstone, Cairngorms
Marble Corner - 3rd Dionard Buttress at Foinavon
Bull Roar - the Ben
Bludgers Revelation - Slime Wall, Bauchaille Etive Mor
Inbred - Creag Dubh
Vulcan Wall - ?

=== Climbs Needing locations and/or grades ===
The Edge - Loudon Hill
Savage Slit - ?

In reply to Daniel:

The Edge - Louden Hill - VS 4c

In reply to Daniel:

Old Man of Stoer is the best VS in the UK.

In reply to Daniel:


Vulcan Wall (HVS) - Coire Lagain, Skye

Savage Slit(S) - Coire an Lochain, Cairngorms

Crypt Route (VDiff) - Church Door Buttress, Bidean

Islivig (S) - Tealasdale Slabs, Lewis

In reply to Jack Frost:Islivig Direct - there's an obscure wan! We did it thinkin' it wiz a new route but the old descript. wisnae good - very worthy on this list.

In reply to Scott G. Edge is 4b.

In reply to Daniel:
As the thread has developed, it's obvious that people are, quite naturally, selecting multi-pitch routes as the real classics. Why not start a separate single-pitch section: you only have the two Glen clova routes, and the two at Rieff as single pitch. (Are The Edge and The End really two-pitch routes?)
Here are a couple more multi-pitch
VDiff: North Face Route, Buachaille
Severe:Raeburn's Arete, Ben
VS: The Clean Sweep, Hell's Lum
HVS:Hammer, Etive Slabs

In reply to IanMcC:


They're both great, but I reckon The Pause is the better of the two. More variety, and more true slab climbing, and that fantastic vertical corner at the top. And the crevasse pitch is just great. Character building stuff.

See ya,

al

What do people think about having a seperate single-pitch list (in its own thread) or should I just put (sp) after any single pitch routes in the list to tell them apart? Here is the latest Version:

=== Diff ===
Tower Ridge - Ben Nevis
Pinnacle Ridge - Sgurr nan Gillean
East Buttress - Beinn Eighe
Calliban's Creep - Chir Mor, Arran

=== V.Diff ===
Agags Groove - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Lady Gully - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Cioch Nose - Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Observatory Ridge - Ben Nevis
Sou'wester Slabs - Chir Mor, Arran
Squareface - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird
Arrow Route - Cioch Slabs, Skye
Crypt Route - Church Door Buttress, Bidean
North Face Route - Buachaille

=== Severe ===
Ardverikie Wall - Binnein Shuas
Eagle Ridge - Lochnagar
January Jigsaw - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Talisman - Etchachan, Cairngorms
Cengalo - 1st Dionard Buttress
Integrity - Skye
Butterknife - Garbh Bheinn
Punster's Crack - The Cobbler
Savage Slit - Coire an Lochain, Cairngorms.
Mitre Ridge - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird
Cumming Crofton Route - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird
Savage Slit - Coire an Lochain, Cairngorms
Islivig - Tealasdale Slabs, Lewis
Raeburn's Arete - Ben

=== Hard Severe ===
Central Crack (SP) - Upper SE Crag, Glen Clova
Talisman - Creagan a Coire Etchachan
'Resurrection' - Polldubh

=== Very Severe ===
Proud Corner (SP) - Lower North West Crag, Glen Clova
The End - Polney Crag, Dunkeld
Hy Brasil (SP) - Reiff
Fallen Star - Logie Head
The Edge - Loudon Hill
'Spartan Slab' - Etive
Sword of Gideon - Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Pain Pillar - Aberdour
South Ridge Direct - Cir Mhor, Arran
Mousetrap - Creag an Dubh Loch
The Old Man - Old Man of Stoer
Djibangi - Etchachan, Cairngorms
Fionn Buttress - Carnmore Crag
Sword of Gideon - Ben Bahn, Diabaig
Excalibur - Garbh Bheinn
Pobble - Foinaven
Dawn Grooves - Skye
The Edge - Loudon Hill
The Clean Sweep - Hell's Lum

=== HVS ===
Sip From the Wine of Youth Again - Reiff
Centurion - Carn Dearg, The Ben
Bludgers - Bauchaille Etive Mor
The Needle - Shelterstone, Cairngorms
Marble Corner - 3rd Dionard Buttress at Foinavon
Bull Roar - the Ben
Bludgers Revelation - Slime Wall, Bauchaille Etive Mor
Inbred - Creag Dubh
Vulcan Wall - Coire Lagain, Skye
Hammer - Etive Slabs

=== Climbs Needing locations and/or grades ===
Jack Frost:Islivig Direct

In reply to Daniel:
Is the Needle not E1?

In reply to Daniel:

i've not done much in scotland, but i was there once, and went to a place called huntleys cave, where there was a great climb i did called double overhang- it consisted of two rooves, but you could kind of go round them...

i think it was a vs, but not sure- pretty awesome though anyway

In reply to Daniel: Overlap move on spartan slab.
My dad seconded this move with no hesitation whatsoever, having seconded the odd severe. Wierd. My wife glared over the edge of the slab at me as I encouraged her to pull up. "I can't. My boobs are jammed under the roof".

Re routes. Everything on Skye gabbro. And noone on rocktalk has mentioned Mingulay. Its too depressing to assemble a list of classics, because theres not enough time.

In reply to Daniel: Bald Eagle - HVS - Stone Valley near Gairloch in the North West

In reply to ColinM:It is E1, Bob's rememberin' the old grade in the gid ole days.

In reply to cw: Double-Overhang is HVS in the guide.

In reply to CmcL: Whit aboot Route 2 at Diabeg? (HVS) ****.
Bald Eagle's a ** VS.

In reply to Daniel:

Definite additions

The Chasm VS
Wither Wether, Cobbler VS
Integrity , Skye VS
Storm, Nevis, HVS

In reply to Anonymous: when I did Storm a few years back after years of having it in my mind I was sadly dissapointed. Not nearly as good as I had thought it would be. Probably wouldn't make my top 20.

In reply to TobyA:
I would put Storm in the same grade as Adam at Shepherds. same number of stars too, I enjoyed it but it did not have the wow factor.

Ok here is the latest version:

=== Diff ===
Tower Ridge - Ben Nevis
Pinnacle Ridge - Sgurr nan Gillean
East Buttress - Beinn Eighe
Calliban's Creep - Chir Mor, Arran

=== V.Diff ===
Agags Groove - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Lady Gully - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Cioch Nose - Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Observatory Ridge - Ben Nevis
Sou'wester Slabs - Chir Mor, Arran
Squareface - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird
Arrow Route - Cioch Slabs, Skye
Crypt Route - Church Door Buttress, Bidean
North Face Route - Buachaille

=== Severe ===
Ardverikie Wall - Binnein Shuas
Eagle Ridge - Lochnagar
January Jigsaw - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Talisman - Etchachan, Cairngorms
Cengalo - 1st Dionard Buttress
Integrity - Skye
Butterknife - Garbh Bheinn
Punster's Crack - The Cobbler
Savage Slit - Coire an Lochain, Cairngorms.
Mitre Ridge - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird
Cumming Crofton Route - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird
Savage Slit - Coire an Lochain, Cairngorms
Islivig - Tealasdale Slabs, Lewis
Raeburn's Arete - Ben

=== Hard Severe ===
Central Crack (SP) - Upper SE Crag, Glen Clova
Talisman - Creagan a Coire Etchachan
'Resurrection' - Polldubh

=== Very Severe ===
Proud Corner (SP) - Lower North West Crag, Glen Clova
The End - Polney Crag, Dunkeld
Hy Brasil (SP) - Reiff
Fallen Star - Logie Head
The Edge - Loudon Hill
'Spartan Slab' - Etive
Sword of Gideon - Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Pain Pillar - Aberdour
South Ridge Direct - Cir Mhor, Arran
Mousetrap - Creag an Dubh Loch
The Old Man - Old Man of Stoer
Djibangi - Etchachan, Cairngorms
Fionn Buttress - Carnmore Crag
Sword of Gideon - Ben Bahn, Diabaig
Excalibur - Garbh Bheinn
Pobble - Foinaven
Dawn Grooves - Skye
The Edge - Loudon Hill
The Clean Sweep - Hell's Lum
Bald Eagle - Stone Valley near Gairloch
Wither Wether - Cobbler
Integrity - Skye

=== HVS ===
Sip From the Wine of Youth Again - Reiff
Centurion - Carn Dearg, The Ben
Bludgers - Bauchaille Etive Mor
The Needle - Shelterstone, Cairngorms
Marble Corner - 3rd Dionard Buttress at Foinavon
Bull Roar - the Ben
Bludgers Revelation - Slime Wall, Bauchaille Etive Mor
Inbred - Creag Dubh
Vulcan Wall - Coire Lagain, Skye
Hammer - Etive Slabs
Double Overhang - huntleys cave
Route 2 - Diabeg
Storm - Nevis

=== Climbs Needing locations and/or grades ===
Jack Frost:Islivig Direct
The Chasm

In reply to Daniel:
VDiff - Whispering Wall, Skye. Epic route in a stunning position. Much more of a remote mountain feel than Agag's
VDiff - Wisdom Buttress, Beinn Lair
VDiff - Mallory's Slab and Groove, Skye
VS - Dawn Grooves, Skye

In reply to Daniel:Ooops! Should say that Bald Eagle as a VS is my own opinion.
Islivig Direct is on the Tealasdale slabs, Uig, Isle of Lewis.(tho' Jack Frost did say so too).
The Chasm is on the Buachaille, Glencoe.

In reply to Stac Pollaidh: You've had a brief lapse in your Scottish ascent there Stac. I reckon you are really English, educated at Eton, just pretending to be Scottish for effect?

In reply to Daniel: as a couple of people's posts Integrity gets (mild) VS in the latest guide

In reply to kevin stephens:Aye, yur right pal, whit wi' the wetha bein' shite annat, ma Scottish ascent hasnae bin up to scratch o' late.
Cheeky monkey.

Ok latest version again, Need grades for the Chasm and Isliving Direct still as my only guidebook (Rock Climbing in Scotland) for those areas does not list either route. Some more Diffs and Hard Severes would be good too!

=== Diff ===
Tower Ridge - Ben Nevis
Pinnacle Ridge - Sgurr nan Gillean
East Buttress - Beinn Eighe
Calliban's Creep - Chir Mor, Arran

=== V.Diff ===
Agags Groove - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Lady Gully - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Cioch Nose - Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Observatory Ridge - Ben Nevis
Sou'wester Slabs - Chir Mor, Arran
Squareface - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird
Arrow Route - Cioch Slabs, Skye
Crypt Route - Church Door Buttress, Bidean
North Face Route - Buachaille
Whispering Wall - Skye
Wisdom Buttress - Beinn Lair
Mallory's Slab and Groove - Skye

=== Severe ===
Ardverikie Wall - Binnein Shuas
Eagle Ridge - Lochnagar
January Jigsaw - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Talisman - Etchachan, Cairngorms
Cengalo - 1st Dionard Buttress
Integrity - Skye
Butterknife - Garbh Bheinn
Punster's Crack - The Cobbler
Savage Slit - Coire an Lochain, Cairngorms.
Mitre Ridge - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird
Cumming Crofton Route - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird
Savage Slit - Coire an Lochain, Cairngorms
Islivig - Tealasdale Slabs, Lewis
Raeburn's Arete - Ben

=== Hard Severe ===
Central Crack (SP) - Upper SE Crag, Glen Clova
Talisman - Creagan a Coire Etchachan
'Resurrection' - Polldubh

=== Very Severe ===
Proud Corner (SP) - Lower North West Crag, Glen Clova
The End - Polney Crag, Dunkeld
Hy Brasil (SP) - Reiff
Fallen Star - Logie Head
The Edge - Loudon Hill
'Spartan Slab' - Etive
Sword of Gideon - Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Pain Pillar - Aberdour
South Ridge Direct - Cir Mhor, Arran
Mousetrap - Creag an Dubh Loch
The Old Man - Old Man of Stoer
Djibangi - Etchachan, Cairngorms
Fionn Buttress - Carnmore Crag
Sword of Gideon - Ben Bahn, Diabaig
Excalibur - Garbh Bheinn
Pobble - Foinaven
Dawn Grooves - Skye
The Edge - Loudon Hill
The Clean Sweep - Hell's Lum
Bald Eagle - Stone Valley near Gairloch
Wither Wether - Cobbler
Integrity - Skye
Dawn Grooves - Skye

=== HVS ===
Sip From the Wine of Youth Again - Reiff
Centurion - Carn Dearg, The Ben
Bludgers - Bauchaille Etive Mor
The Needle - Shelterstone, Cairngorms
Marble Corner - 3rd Dionard Buttress at Foinavon
Bull Roar - the Ben
Bludgers Revelation - Slime Wall, Bauchaille Etive Mor
Inbred - Creag Dubh
Vulcan Wall - Coire Lagain, Skye
Hammer - Etive Slabs
Double Overhang - huntleys cave
Route 2 - Diabeg
Storm - Nevis

=== Climbs Needing locations and/or grades ===
Islivig Direct -Tealasdale slabs, Uig, Isle of Lewis.
The Chasm - Glencoe.

In reply to Daniel:

=== Climbs Needing locations and/or grades ===
Islivig Direct -Tealasdale slabs, Uig, Isle of Lewis.
The Chasm - Glencoe.

Come on Daniel, for the umpteenth time....

Islvig Direct is Severe,
The Chasm is VS

Another Diff to add is Crystal Ridge in Coire Sputan Dearg in the 'gorms.

In reply to Daniel:

Just got back from a week up t'north (great weather!). Prbably the pick
of the bunch we did (that you haven't got already) were:

Stac Pollaidh No. 2 buttress:
Vlad the Impaler , HVS 5a
Nosferatu, HVS 5a (as good as Vlad but no stars)

Rieff (black rocks):
Black Guillemot VS 4c (better that 3* Black Gold)
Batman HVS 5a (for the top groove)
Black Pig VS 4c

Rieff (Minch Walls)
Jim Nastic VS 4c

Jetty Crag (Gruinard Bay)
Anthrax Flake VS 4c
Starwood HVS 5a

Diabaig
Route I is good (HVS 5a,5a) as well as Route II.

In reply to Daniel: If you've got the Old Man of Stoer, why not the Old Man of Hoy?

In reply to kevin stephens:

Hoy is a bit more of a serious outing than Stoer and a grade higher.

In reply to kevin stephens: because no one has suggested any (I might have missed them, it would not be the 1st time)...

Daniel

In reply to Daniel:

Thanks for this, we are heading up in a few weeks and HVS is about our limit!!!

I'm surprised the following are missing from your list as they would make some peoples top ten:

Dubh Ridge M (Skye)
A Chir Ridge D (Arran)
Clach Glas Blaven traverse D (Skye)
Observatory Ridge VD (Ben)
Clacaig Gully S (GlenCoe)
The Long Climb VS (Ben)

Integrity is MVS these days and the 'crux' of Spartan Slab is a doddle (jam and swing your knee up) unlike the first pitch which is much more awkward than indicated.

In reply to TobyA:

Toby, anonymous was me on a different pc (no cookies !)

The second pitch on Storm is fantastic - steep , juggy, exposed and a wee bit bold. I loved it. The best route I've done at Polldubh, no doubt.

G

In reply to Daniel:

That's some fridge list

I reckon I've done 20 of them

The Chasm is VS 4b

Re comments earlier about Integrity being MVS, I can't say I agree having been on it last Thursday. 'Proper' Severe

G

In reply to GFoz: I had the bright idea of doing pitch one and two together - this would be fine with 55mtr ropes that I don't have! Anyway it was ok, I don't remember it being bold although I had a few dodgy moments - hot sweaty lots of big pinch grips - not a good combination! I just don't remember it being very exposed, or the climbing being that special?! Funny how different people see the same route differently!

Now a Polldubh Classic at severe is The Flying Dutchman, the traverse out on the second pitch maybe? ...Simply superb, must be nearly 9 years since I did it but it stays in my mind! Polldubh is a fantastic place overall - particularly when there is still snow on the tops and the sky is clear.

In reply to GFoz:


Again funny - 'cos I remember thinking good solid VS 4c when I did it! It wasn't hard it just felt like VS feels to me...

OK here is the new list, sorry JackF for missing your postings before it looks like I've missed a couple. Anyway enjoy:

=== Mod ===
Dubh Ridge - Skye

=== Diff ===
Tower Ridge - Ben Nevis
Pinnacle Ridge - Sgurr nan Gillean
East Buttress - Beinn Eighe
Calliban's Creep - Chir Mor, Arran
Crystal Ridge - Coire Sputan Dearg, Cairngorms
A Chir Ridge - (Arran)
Clach Glas Blaven traverse - Skye

=== V.Diff ===
Agags Groove - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Lady Gully - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Cioch Nose - Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Observatory Ridge - Ben Nevis
Sou'wester Slabs - Chir Mor, Arran
Squareface - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird
Arrow Route - Cioch Slabs, Skye
Crypt Route - Church Door Buttress, Bidean
North Face Route - Buachaille
Whispering Wall - Skye
Wisdom Buttress - Beinn Lair
Mallory's Slab and Groove - Skye

=== Severe ===
Ardverikie Wall - Binnein Shuas
Eagle Ridge - Lochnagar
January Jigsaw - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Talisman - Etchachan, Cairngorms
Cengalo - 1st Dionard Buttress
Integrity - Skye
Butterknife - Garbh Bheinn
Punster's Crack - The Cobbler
Savage Slit - Coire an Lochain, Cairngorms.
Mitre Ridge - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird
Cumming Crofton Route - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird
Savage Slit - Coire an Lochain, Cairngorms
Islivig - Tealasdale Slabs, Lewis
Raeburn's Arete - Ben
Islivig Direct -Tealasdale slabs, Uig, Isle of Lewis.
Clacaig Gully - GlenCoe
The Flying Dutchman - Polldubh

=== Hard Severe ===
Central Crack (SP) - Upper SE Crag, Glen Clova
Talisman - Creagan a Coire Etchachan
'Resurrection' - Polldubh

=== Very Severe ===
Proud Corner (SP) - Lower North West Crag, Glen Clova
The End - Polney Crag, Dunkeld
Hy Brasil (SP) - Reiff
Fallen Star - Logie Head
The Edge - Loudon Hill
'Spartan Slab' - Etive
Sword of Gideon - Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Pain Pillar - Aberdour
South Ridge Direct - Cir Mhor, Arran
Mousetrap - Creag an Dubh Loch
The Old Man - Old Man of Stoer
Djibangi - Etchachan, Cairngorms
Fionn Buttress - Carnmore Crag
Sword of Gideon - Ben Bahn, Diabaig
Excalibur - Garbh Bheinn
Pobble - Foinaven
Dawn Grooves - Skye
The Edge - Loudon Hill
The Clean Sweep - Hell's Lum
Bald Eagle - Stone Valley near Gairloch
Wither Wether - Cobbler
Integrity - Skye
Dawn Grooves - Skye
The Chasm - Glencoe.
Black Guillemot - Black Rocks, Rieff
Black Pig - Black Rocks, Rieff
Jim Nastic - Minch Walls, Reiff
Anthrax Flake - Jetty Crag, Gruinard Bay
The Long Climb - Ben

=== HVS ===
Sip From the Wine of Youth Again - Reiff
Centurion - Carn Dearg, The Ben
Bludgers - Bauchaille Etive Mor
The Needle - Shelterstone, Cairngorms
Marble Corner - 3rd Dionard Buttress at Foinavon
Bull Roar - the Ben
Bludgers Revelation - Slime Wall, Bauchaille Etive Mor
Inbred - Creag Dubh
Vulcan Wall - Coire Lagain, Skye
Hammer - Etive Slabs
Double Overhang - huntleys cave
Route 2 - Diabeg
Storm - Nevis
Vlad the Impaler - Stac Pollaidh No. 2 buttress
Nosferatu - Stac Pollaidh No. 2 buttress
Batman - Black Rocks, Rieff
Starwood - Jetty Crag, Gruinard Bay
Route I - Diabaig

In reply to Daniel:
Needle E1 not HVS

In reply to TobyA:

well if Derek Haworth thought Severe over 50 years ago, on sight, prob big boots and minimal gear, who are we to argue ???

In reply to Daniel:

Yeah,

Another couple of classics on Polldubh would be Phantom Slab (VS) and Secretary's Direct (S). I'd also agree that resurrection is about 4b/4c. The VS's just round from Resurrection are well worth doing as well. A tip for Polldubh is don't hang around the bottom tiers but plan a series a routes that take you right to the very top of the crags. Autobahn Ausfahrt on The Skull, for example, is an excellent 300' VS slab that can be linked with an almost infinite combination of lower routes to give over 1000' of climbing. Just leave your sacks at Pinnacle Buttress and spend a morning working your way up the buttresses.

I vaguely remeber The Chasm as being about Vdiff/E2 if your route finding isn't perfect. I always thought the severe grade was a kind of average...

In reply to Daniel:
I mentioned the routes on Aonach dubh, here are some grades;
Bowstring, 600' diff
Quiver rib, Diff
Archer ridge, severe

Phantom slab on Polldubh is good, especially if you only use the one line runner that was available 30 years ago, real headpointing stuff.

In reply to GFoz:

The Skye guidebook states MVS, stop spliting hairs (in those days the hardest routes in scotland were VS!!)

In reply to GFoz:Reckon I've done over 50 o' them! Anyone beat that, eh?

In reply to Stac Pollaidh: At first count I've only done 19 of them. "Must Try Harder". Moving back to Europe's finest city would help...

In reply to TobyA:
Guess I need to get home & go to Skye in good weather as only 40 done so far.

Now what about the winter list - routes up to grade V ?

Latest Version Below. Still not many Hard Severes, must not be a comman grade. Over 50 routes done? Thats good going I think I have only done about 5 at best.

=== Mod ===
Dubh Ridge - Skye

=== Diff ===
Tower Ridge - Ben Nevis
Pinnacle Ridge - Sgurr nan Gillean
East Buttress - Beinn Eighe
Calliban's Creep - Chir Mor, Arran
Crystal Ridge - Coire Sputan Dearg, Cairngorms
A Chir Ridge - (Arran)
Clach Glas Blaven traverse - Skye
Bowstring - Aonach dubh
Quiver rib - Aonach dubh

=== V.Diff ===
Agags Groove - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Lady Gully - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Cioch Nose - Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Observatory Ridge - Ben Nevis
Sou'wester Slabs - Chir Mor, Arran
Squareface - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird
Arrow Route - Cioch Slabs, Skye
Crypt Route - Church Door Buttress, Bidean
North Face Route - Buachaille
Whispering Wall - Skye
Wisdom Buttress - Beinn Lair
Mallory's Slab and Groove - Skye

=== Severe ===
Ardverikie Wall - Binnein Shuas
Eagle Ridge - Lochnagar
January Jigsaw - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Talisman - Etchachan, Cairngorms
Cengalo - 1st Dionard Buttress
Integrity - Skye
Butterknife - Garbh Bheinn
Archer ridge - Aonach dubh
Punster's Crack - The Cobbler
Savage Slit - Coire an Lochain, Cairngorms.
Mitre Ridge - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird
Cumming Crofton Route - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird
Savage Slit - Coire an Lochain, Cairngorms
Islivig - Tealasdale Slabs, Lewis
Raeburn's Arete - Ben
Islivig Direct -Tealasdale slabs, Uig, Isle of Lewis.
Clacaig Gully - GlenCoe
The Flying Dutchman - Polldubh
Secretary's Direct - Polldubh

=== Hard Severe ===
Central Crack (SP) - Upper SE Crag, Glen Clova
Talisman - Creagan a Coire Etchachan
'Resurrection' - Polldubh
Monster Crack - Red Craig, Glen Clova

=== Very Severe ===
Proud Corner (SP) - Lower North West Crag, Glen Clova
The End - Polney Crag, Dunkeld
Hy Brasil (SP) - Reiff
Fallen Star - Logie Head
The Edge - Loudon Hill
'Spartan Slab' - Etive
Sword of Gideon - Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Pain Pillar - Aberdour
South Ridge Direct - Cir Mhor, Arran
Mousetrap - Creag an Dubh Loch
The Old Man - Old Man of Stoer
Djibangi - Etchachan, Cairngorms
Fionn Buttress - Carnmore Crag
Sword of Gideon - Ben Bahn, Diabaig
Excalibur - Garbh Bheinn
Pobble - Foinaven
Dawn Grooves - Skye
The Edge - Loudon Hill
The Clean Sweep - Hell's Lum
Bald Eagle - Stone Valley near Gairloch
Wither Wether - Cobbler
Integrity - Skye
Dawn Grooves - Skye
The Chasm - Glencoe.
Black Guillemot - Black Rocks, Rieff
Black Pig - Black Rocks, Rieff
Jim Nastic - Minch Walls, Reiff
Anthrax Flake - Jetty Crag, Gruinard Bay
The Long Climb - Ben
Phantom Slab - Polldubh

=== HVS ===
Sip From the Wine of Youth Again - Reiff
Centurion - Carn Dearg, The Ben
Bludgers - Bauchaille Etive Mor
The Needle - Shelterstone, Cairngorms
Marble Corner - 3rd Dionard Buttress at Foinavon
Bull Roar - the Ben
Bludgers Revelation - Slime Wall, Bauchaille Etive Mor
Inbred - Creag Dubh
Vulcan Wall - Coire Lagain, Skye
Hammer - Etive Slabs
Double Overhang - huntleys cave
Route 2 - Diabeg
Storm - Nevis
Vlad the Impaler - Stac Pollaidh No. 2 buttress
Nosferatu - Stac Pollaidh No. 2 buttress
Batman - Black Rocks, Rieff
Starwood - Jetty Crag, Gruinard Bay
Route I - Diabaig

In reply to Offwidth:

No Scottish guidebook had a grade above VS until the 1980 Glencoe book but when Haworth climbed Integrity there were already two Extremes, one by himself (Steeplejack Staircase, Salisbury Crags, E2 !!!)

If you accept that S, HS, MVS and VS represent three different grades then the guidebook is overgraded by two whole grades - hardly splitting hairs.

I am sick of this constant SMC grade creep in the lower grades. We did Cioch West to get there. Used to be VDiff now Severe. Utter nonsense.

G

In reply to Daniel:
getting too long , needs editing. Antrax Flake. I don't think so ....

In reply to GFoz:
No SMC guidebook had grades above VS till around 1980 but I'm sure the various (non SMC)guides to the outcrops in central Scotland used HVS & XS earlier. And there was a list of proposed E grades in an early number of Crags by (I think) Willie Todd which I guess would be considered a bit harsh by present day standards.

In reply to Doug:

Ken Crocket's 1974 epic 'Western Outcrops' grudgingly gave the grade 'HVS' to the exceptionally highball 'Route Royale' at Dumbie. Dave Macleod's online guide rates it as E3 5c. The same guidebook has a VS grade for White Streak at modern 6a. Lunge at Loudon Hill was VS too (now E3)

Anyway, the SMC only recognised that Scotalnd had Extreme climbs over 30 years after the first were put up.

By 1980, Scotland actually had an E6 (Wild Country ) !!!

In reply to GFoz:


No Scottish guidebook had a grade above VS until the 1980 Glencoe book but when Haworth climbed Integrity there were already two Extremes, one by himself (Steeplejack Staircase, Salisbury Crags, E2 !!!)

What was the other only extreme - Gallows??

In reply to GFoz:


No Scottish guidebook had a grade above VS until the 1980 Glencoe book but when Haworth climbed Integrity there were already two Extremes, one by himself (Steeplejack Staircase, Salisbury Crags, E2 !!!)

What was the other only extreme - Gallows??

In reply to GFoz:

So, you're complaining that the SMC hadn't a progressive attitude to grading in the past..
Now that they have, you complain again.

yet another GFoz anti-SMC rant.
Starting to get very borin'.

In reply to Daniel:Oh, another one for your list Daniel - Ardgarten Arete on the Cobbler, VS.

In reply to Stac Pollaidh: hehehe! Im just can just imagine Gfozs reply to the that one.
'Ardgarten Arete- VS??? NO WAY THE SMC ARE LIARS , CHEATS , FRAUDS OH YAWN YAWN

In reply to Stac Pollaidh:
Aahh that's awfy nice - Ardgarten Arete - my first route.Climbed in 74'though which is a bit hard to face.

In reply to rats:

10 points !!!

In reply to the bendy:

I have already suggested on more than one occasion on this site that AA is worth VDiff. When grade creep is wrong you have to say what you think. The whole SMC guidebook policy is all; wrong and being driven by the wronmg people. I think we'll all get a shock when the Coe book comes out

And the day I did it, it was cloudy and windy.

In reply to Stac Pollaidh:

and its not that great a route either.

Wether Wall is prob the 2nd best VS on th emountain and its not top 20 !!

G

In reply to Stac Pollaidh:


I didn't complain about the old policy just marvelled at it.

Scottish VS should be bloody hard !

G

Ok here is the latest version of the list. Do you think we have enough routes to start refining it? Also if VS was the hardest grade why are their not more HS routes?

=== Mod ===
Dubh Ridge - Skye

=== Diff ===
Tower Ridge - Ben Nevis
Pinnacle Ridge - Sgurr nan Gillean
East Buttress - Beinn Eighe
Calliban's Creep - Chir Mor, Arran
Crystal Ridge - Coire Sputan Dearg, Cairngorms
A Chir Ridge - (Arran)
Clach Glas Blaven traverse - Skye
Bowstring - Aonach dubh
Quiver rib - Aonach dubh

=== V.Diff ===
Agags Groove - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Lady Gully - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Cioch Nose - Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Observatory Ridge - Ben Nevis
Sou'wester Slabs - Chir Mor, Arran
Squareface - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird
Arrow Route - Cioch Slabs, Skye
Crypt Route - Church Door Buttress, Bidean
North Face Route - Buachaille
Whispering Wall - Skye
Wisdom Buttress - Beinn Lair
Mallory's Slab and Groove - Skye

=== Severe ===
Ardverikie Wall - Binnein Shuas
Eagle Ridge - Lochnagar
January Jigsaw - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Talisman - Etchachan, Cairngorms
Cengalo - 1st Dionard Buttress
Integrity - Skye
Butterknife - Garbh Bheinn
Archer ridge - Aonach dubh
Punster's Crack - The Cobbler
Savage Slit - Coire an Lochain, Cairngorms.
Mitre Ridge - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird
Cumming Crofton Route - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird
Savage Slit - Coire an Lochain, Cairngorms
Islivig - Tealasdale Slabs, Lewis
Raeburn's Arete - Ben
Islivig Direct -Tealasdale slabs, Uig, Isle of Lewis.
Clacaig Gully - GlenCoe
The Flying Dutchman - Polldubh
Secretary's Direct - Polldubh

=== Hard Severe ===
Central Crack (SP) - Upper SE Crag, Glen Clova
Talisman - Creagan a Coire Etchachan
'Resurrection' - Polldubh
Monster Crack - Red Craig, Glen Clova

=== Very Severe ===
Proud Corner (SP) - Lower North West Crag, Glen Clova
The End - Polney Crag, Dunkeld
Hy Brasil (SP) - Reiff
Fallen Star - Logie Head
The Edge - Loudon Hill
'Spartan Slab' - Etive
Sword of Gideon - Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Pain Pillar - Aberdour
South Ridge Direct - Cir Mhor, Arran
Mousetrap - Creag an Dubh Loch
The Old Man - Old Man of Stoer
Djibangi - Etchachan, Cairngorms
Fionn Buttress - Carnmore Crag
Sword of Gideon - Ben Bahn, Diabaig
Excalibur - Garbh Bheinn
Pobble - Foinaven
Dawn Grooves - Skye
The Edge - Loudon Hill
The Clean Sweep - Hell's Lum
Bald Eagle - Stone Valley near Gairloch
Wither Wether - Cobbler
Integrity - Skye
Dawn Grooves - Skye
The Chasm - Glencoe.
Black Guillemot - Black Rocks, Rieff
Black Pig - Black Rocks, Rieff
Jim Nastic - Minch Walls, Reiff
Anthrax Flake - Jetty Crag, Gruinard Bay
The Long Climb - Ben
Phantom Slab - Polldubh
Ardgarten Arete, The Cobbler

=== HVS ===
Sip From the Wine of Youth Again - Reiff
Centurion - Carn Dearg, The Ben
Bludgers - Bauchaille Etive Mor
The Needle - Shelterstone, Cairngorms
Marble Corner - 3rd Dionard Buttress at Foinavon
Bull Roar - the Ben
Bludgers Revelation - Slime Wall, Bauchaille Etive Mor
Inbred - Creag Dubh
Vulcan Wall - Coire Lagain, Skye
Hammer - Etive Slabs
Double Overhang - huntleys cave
Route 2 - Diabeg
Storm - Nevis
Vlad the Impaler - Stac Pollaidh No. 2 buttress
Nosferatu - Stac Pollaidh No. 2 buttress
Batman - Black Rocks, Rieff
Starwood - Jetty Crag, Gruinard Bay
Route I - Diabaig

In reply to Daniel:

If you want a good HS put in The Weight at Fulmar Wall, Aberdeen sea cliffs.

Also Ardveriekie Wall went up to HS in the guide book. I was fuming at that but you might want to change it.

A route I haven;t doen but has a huge reputation with those that have is Minus One Direct (HVS) on the Ben

G

In reply to Daniel:


If you want to start editing, the ones I've either done or seen a close quarters and just aren't pure four star class are:


Bowstring, North Face Route, Archer Ridge, Clachaig Gully, Monster Crack, Hammer, Archer Ridge, Flying Dutchman, Route 1.

Don't get me wrong they're allright but ..

In reply to GFoz:

Why should Scottish VS be bloody hard? I'd have thought they should be the same as everywhere else. IMHO intransigent attitudes strengthens the case of the whingers and actually encourages grade creep.

SMC probably upgraded Integrity because a lot of S-VS leaders had a hard time on it. If you can lead routes like the Chasm I suspect you would be loosing the sensitivity to judge S accurately but for the record how about some comments on why it deserves S (ie, what sort of S is it?: technical grad (technical or not), bomber pro or not, sustained or not?). The SMC guide rated the initial overhang as 4b and the tough section on the crack above (which can be bypassed) both as 4b.

In reply to Offwidth:

Any VS leader that has a hard time on Integrity isn't a VS leader (by which I mean an alround VS climber capable of doing the steep ones, the bold ones, the long ones, the loose ones)

Its a comparative system. Anyone who goes onto Ardgartan Arete, Butterknife or Integrity and thinks they can climb mountain VS is in for some real frights.

There are some 'proper' VS routes out there - usually not the trade routes. I'm thinking of routes like The Gut & Hiccup (Coe) and The Snark (Skye) all of which made me sweat.

The first three are incomprable in overall difficulty to the
the last three. Incomparable. Anyone who think that they can do the last three cos they did the first three is in real trouble.

The modern answer to that is to upgrade the toughies. Why not restore the softies to Severe/HS.

I thought Integrity was very like Arveriekie Wall which is as far as I'm converned benchmark severe. The very first move is perhaps even worth 4c but it is just off the ground. Gear's perfect throughout, route is obvious, grip impeccable. Sure its airy but thats mountain rock for you.

G

In reply to Offwidth:

By the way when the Coe guide comes out try 'Royal Flush' a new VS on the Buachaille ( I was on the second ascent last autumn).

Its steep, sustained, the gear is sometimes spaced, the 4th pitch is a wonderful piece of route finding to find the line of least resistance BUT theres not a move over 4c. Lots of 4c moves mind, but no 5a. Its not a sand bag - its just testing. And so VS should be....

Thats proper VS, old style

G

G

In reply to Offwidth:

Remember that not all VS's were hard. It was just that VS was the hardest grade available so it really meant 'no easier than 4C'. The thing you had to look at was the graded list at the back.

In them days HS didn't really exist in Scotland. I think I'm right in recalling that the attitude in them days was that you should be competent enough to take the odd suprise in your stride. The approximations on grading just added to the adventure and gave folk something to talk about in the pub after.

BTW I looked in a copy of McInnes's 'Scottish Climbs' published in 1971. He gave Ardgarten arete IV+ which approximates to mild severe - definitely not VS. It was soloed by John Cunningham in 1948 - probably wearing tennis shoes. I can't see how it could be thought of as VS today (shome mishtake shurely?).

In reply to Removed User:

Couldn't agree more. Soloed on sight by a teenage boy from Shettleston in a pair of old gutties. And we have the cheek to turn up with all the gear and whine and cry for an upgrade. Get on with it !!!

In reply to GFoz: In relation to the Glencoe guide. Would it not be much better if someone like Ian Nicholson or Tam the Bam wrote it?? It would be well funny and with proper grades and a few cheeky, witty comments! Be top of my shopping list.

In reply to GFoz:

That's a bit unfair, we had a discussion a year ago about how many rock types you have onsighted your top grade on and of course lots of folk have only done it on their local rock - but its a bit harsh to tell some one who has done 20 HVS grit leads that they haven't led HVS! Obviously though folk have to be prepared that a new rock type, or even just exposure if you are not used to multi-pitch, makes routes seem harder.

Anyway, I find some VSs hard, it might be you're having a crappy day, it might be that they don't suit your style.



We pissed up Arveriekie when we were 19 and had only been climbing seriously for a year. Besides the first pitch which has some steeper bits but is better protected, I remember the whole route as pretty easy, not much different from various V diffs we did that week. Integrity I climbed a couple of summer ago, 9 years on and thousands of climbs all around the world up to E1 later than Ardveriekie, it was a great, well protected route, and I was climbing fine but it still felt like low end VS to me!

>(Integrity) Gear's perfect throughout, route is obvious, grip impeccable.

All true, but if the moves are 4b/4c its still a VS!

In reply to TobyA:


I think my point is that there's a big difference between leading VS (maybe only 1) and being a VS leader (ie being competent on sight at the grade in all its variety.

I have led E1 but only consider myself a VS leader - theres plenty of HVS and E1 I wouldn't touch with a barge pole.

So the point is that if you let someone think they might be a VS leader cos they've led , say Ardgartan Arete , tehy are going to have some serious epics on other VS they assume they can do. Which isn't good and is poor guidebook writing. Most of th egrade creep happens on the most popular routes

G

In reply to GFoz:


But nor is calling a VS route a Severe.

>Most of the grade creep happens on the most popular routes

Maybe 'cos no one knows the unpopular routes are undergraded.

I think I've done Ardgarten Arete, I've been on that bit of the hill many a time summer and winter, funny I can't remember exactly. I always thought the SE Ridge at II seemed a trifle unfair - or perhaps just a way of lowering the number of punters out in winter.

In reply to GFoz:
Have done Ardgarten Arete and Integrity as well as Snark and would agree with you. Snark is a serious route (very good) with some sustained VS climbing. Integrity is Severe climbing in spectacular positions. On a busy bank holiday I have watched people get lost on Integrity.

In reply to TobyA:

Thats how grade creep happens. You upgrade the popular routes to VS then people have a cow on a real VS and demand it goes up to HVS !! When was the last time you saw a new guidebook downgrade a route (Walk on the Wild Side at Auchistarry ?)

G

In reply to GFoz: what did WOTWS used to be then? In my guide it is HVS. One of my first HVSs I think.

In reply to TobyA:

Used to be E1 5a. It was originally a toprope problem but the FA was a solo. As the guidebook points out RPs etc make it a lot more reasonable (though still bold enogh getting to the first placement)

Its def no more than 5a but needs a steady head - I think the current grade is about right but its no soft touch, when most dolerite quarry routes are !

G

In reply to Ian Smith:
On a busy bank holiday I have watched people get lost on Integrity.

How?? Its a bloody great 200ft fault line, straight as a die? Did they wander over to Trophy Crack ? Did they fall off?? Did you laugh ??

In reply to GFoz:
Was supposed to have been unprotectable when first done (anyone know what happened to Rob ?)and I think with some loose rock. After a few repeats the loose rock went & some protection was found.

In reply to Doug: I was working in a climbing shop that summer and really wanted to do the route so, taking advantage of the huge staff discount, got a set of RPs and then also a set of HB brass offsets. Finally went and did it and found a) you can stitched the route if you have the kit - (loads of gear!) and b) its pretty steady as you say.
Red Lead seemed as hard and that only get VS plus you go into the lake if you mess up. My first HVS was Prom Direct - now thats a proper HVS, hand jams and all!

Ok new version of the list. Routes marked with a * have been nominated to be removed from the list.

=== Mod ===
Dubh Ridge - Skye
The Inaccessible Pinnacle (ridge route) - Skye

=== Diff ===
Tower Ridge - Ben Nevis
Pinnacle Ridge - Sgurr nan Gillean
East Buttress - Beinn Eighe
Calliban's Creep - Chir Mor, Arran
Crystal Ridge - Coire Sputan Dearg, Cairngorms
A Chir Ridge - (Arran)
Clach Glas Blaven traverse - Skye
*Bowstring - Aonach dubh
Quiver rib - Aonach dubh

=== V.Diff ===
Agags Groove - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Lady Gully - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Cioch Nose - Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Observatory Ridge - Ben Nevis
Sou'wester Slabs - Chir Mor, Arran
Squareface - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird
Arrow Route - Cioch Slabs, Skye
Crypt Route - Church Door Buttress, Bidean
*North Face Route - Buachaille
Whispering Wall - Skye
Wisdom Buttress - Beinn Lair
Mallory's Slab and Groove - Skye

=== Severe ===
Eagle Ridge - Lochnagar
January Jigsaw - Bauchaille Etive Mor
Talisman - Etchachan, Cairngorms
Cengalo - 1st Dionard Buttress
Integrity - Skye
Butterknife - Garbh Bheinn
*Archer ridge - Aonach dubh
Punster's Crack - The Cobbler
Savage Slit - Coire an Lochain, Cairngorms.
Mitre Ridge - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird
Cumming Crofton Route - Garbh Coire of Beinn a' Bhuird
Savage Slit - Coire an Lochain, Cairngorms
Islivig - Tealasdale Slabs, Lewis
Raeburn's Arete - Ben
Islivig Direct -Tealasdale slabs, Uig, Isle of Lewis.
*Clacaig Gully - GlenCoe
*The Flying Dutchman - Polldubh
Secretary's Direct - Polldubh

=== Hard Severe ===
Central Crack (SP) - Upper SE Crag, Glen Clova
Talisman - Creagan a Coire Etchachan
'Resurrection' - Polldubh
*Monster Crack - Red Craig, Glen Clova
The Weight - Fulmar Wall, Aberdeen sea cliffs
Ardverikie Wall - Binnein Shuas

=== Very Severe ===
Proud Corner (SP) - Lower North West Crag, Glen Clova
The End - Polney Crag, Dunkeld
Hy Brasil (SP) - Reiff
Fallen Star - Logie Head
The Edge - Loudon Hill
'Spartan Slab' - Etive
Sword of Gideon - Sgurr A'Chaorachain
Pain Pillar - Aberdour
South Ridge Direct - Cir Mhor, Arran
Mousetrap - Creag an Dubh Loch
The Old Man - Old Man of Stoer
Djibangi - Etchachan, Cairngorms
Fionn Buttress - Carnmore Crag
Sword of Gideon - Ben Bahn, Diabaig
Excalibur - Garbh Bheinn
Pobble - Foinaven
Dawn Grooves - Skye
The Edge - Loudon Hill
The Clean Sweep - Hell's Lum
Bald Eagle - Stone Valley near Gairloch
Wither Wether - Cobbler
Integrity - Skye
Dawn Grooves - Skye
The Chasm - Glencoe.
Black Guillemot - Black Rocks, Rieff
Black Pig - Black Rocks, Rieff
Jim Nastic - Minch Walls, Reiff
Anthrax Flake - Jetty Crag, Gruinard Bay
The Long Climb - Ben
Phantom Slab - Polldubh
Ardgarten Arete, The Cobbler

=== HVS ===
Sip From the Wine of Youth Again - Reiff
Centurion - Carn Dearg, The Ben
Bludgers - Bauchaille Etive Mor
The Needle - Shelterstone, Cairngorms
Marble Corner - 3rd Dionard Buttress at Foinavon
Bull Roar - the Ben
Bludgers Revelation - Slime Wall, Bauchaille Etive Mor
Inbred - Creag Dubh
Vulcan Wall - Coire Lagain, Skye
*Hammer - Etive Slabs
Double Overhang - huntleys cave
Route 2 - Diabeg
Storm - Nevis
Vlad the Impaler - Stac Pollaidh No. 2 buttress
Nosferatu - Stac Pollaidh No. 2 buttress
Batman - Black Rocks, Rieff
Starwood - Jetty Crag, Gruinard Bay
Route I - Diabaig
Minus One Direct - the Ben

In reply to GFoz:

I guess we are about a similar grade Ive led a few single pitch E2's and several mountain HVS (or equivalents in Spain and the US). I agree fully about grade creep on popular routes but there are a still lot of low grade sandbags out there with stars that seem to be defended mainly by people who climb at the low extreme level. The VS band is very wide and nobody with more than half a brain would expect that leading a protected classic MVS would ensure success on a rarely climbed unstarred mountain VS.

I would like to see a lot more consistency and I do agree that overall the grades for popular classics are becoming noticably easier than the unstarred routes. I'm only an occasional Scottish climber but on my home territory of Eastern Grit I've climbed out several crags at and below VS. The situation on eastern grit is crazy with protected 4b and 4c moves on classic HVS routes (like Great Harry, Gingerbread and The Knights Move) and unprotected unstarred Severes with 4c moves (Gnats Slab Arete) and unprotected HS's with nasty 5a moves (Ace). I'd add that the new Rockfax guide has helped immensely in pointing out and correcting those anomolies within its selected crags.

In reply to Daniel:

I'll mind if Hammer is taken off. As representative of a style and location, then it or The Pause should be in. Maybe overall the Pause is better but to have neither...

Besides in itself Hammer deserves *** when compared to some other routes in the UK that get ***.

In reply to O. C. Curmudgeon:

Hammer's okay but only 2 meaninglful pitches on a crag thats 6 + pitches long

2 star route, not up to most on that list imho

In reply to TobyA: Ah, so you must be older than I thought you were. I didn't get round to climbing it till 1980 or thereabouts & thought it was no harder than many of the VSs. But if Rob Kerr thought it was E1 at first I wouldn't disagree with him although he did tend to be a bit erratic at times, brilliant somedays & strugling on VSs the next.

In reply to GFoz: Yes but the two meaningful pitches are brilliant. A bold section straight off the belay, into up and out of a scoop before you can get gear in. Then a lovely layback corner and delicate traverse.

In reply to TimG:

Yup, and if continued in that vein for th ewhole length of the crag it would be utter class but it doesn't so it's not.

I've not done Pause but it looks and sounds like a more sustaoined and classy route.


G

In reply to Doug:

Well that depends on how old you thought I was?!

28 and a big bit BTW.

I must have done it around 93 may be 94 I reckon. Could have changed a lot since the early 80s. It was a long time ago so I might be talking rubbish and it could have been quite hard, maybe I was just lighter back then. My mate gave me quite a good photo he took of me on the route, so I gave a copy to my folks who still have it on some window-sill somewhere. As I remember the photo, I have a slightly apprehensive look on my face - so maybe solid HVS after all!

In reply to TobyA:


The current guidebook came out in '95 so it must have been after that ?

I remember the first day I used the guide was at Auchistarry. We ran it over in the car a few times for that oh so cool 'well thumbed & well used' look.

Jesus we were sad back then

G

In reply to TobyA:
I thought you were probably late 20s/early 30s,just that when I read " I was working in a climbing shop that summer" I read it to mean the same summer as the first ascent.

And the crag has changed a lot, some entire buttreses have gone & I guess a fair number of the routes in the original guide no longer exist.

In reply to GFoz: it was earlier than that wasn't it? I left Glasgow in 96.

Anyway there were copies and photo-copies of the 80s edition kicking around my group of climbing mates so maybe we had that. I also have the little Highrange/Crocket guides to the Glasgow outcrops - they were a laugh. Routes at Dumby with grades like VS 6a!

I climbed reasonably regularly at Auchinstarry from 93 to 96.

In reply to TobyA:

Now if anyone thinks I'm a snob and that my complaints about grade creep are elitist - I'll tell you where IS brick.

Dumby. I've done Longbow and Windjammer , both on second and both by the skin of my teeth. They are both a grade short minimum.

G

In reply to GFoz: Have you done Stonefall Crack and Stonefall Crack Direct? Whadya think?

I've aided Longbow! Never got round to doing Windjammer but have heard its hard.

In reply to TobyA:

I tried it in sweltering weather once and decided to back off before I greased off but it certainly looms a bit !!

I reckon Windjammer is hard E1

G

In reply to Daniel: Ok I have been making a nice excel spreadsheet of all these routes and have counted them and we have 97 routes in the list! So would it be possible to get 3 more routes (lower grades would be nice) to make the list up to a nice round 100? Once we have 100, I will stick the list up on the web somewhere for people to download & Print.

Cheers,

Daniel

In reply to Daniel:
What about Snake Ridge (oris it Snake Arete) in Coire Sputan Dearg -can't remeber much about the climbing but remember the day out as being fun. And we don't seem to have anything on the triple buttresses of Coire Mhic how on earth do you spell that - Is Eastern Buttress a Diff ? good positions anyway and what Hamilton's route on the central buttress at severe ?

In reply to Doug: Or what about SE Ridge of the Cobbler and the Aonoch Eagach at moderate?

I don't why I have forgotten but the North Buttress of the Buchaille is **** diff.

In reply to Daniel:

How bout

Curved Ridge Moderate, The Coe
The Last Eighty Severe, Ben An , Trossachs
Route II , Severe, The Ben (not doen it but I've heard good things and it gets up a pretty intimidating piece of rock)

In reply to GFoz:

I see, so an occasional E1 leader can think Windjammer is an E1 but an occasional VS leader is encouraging grade creep putting Integrity at MVS

Daniel

Please dont delete routes, people have their opinions on favorites and are free to contribute. To have really enjoyed a route and recommended it to others is a great thing to do. To ask for a route to be removed is a bit sad. For example Hammer for me was amazing and much more accesable than The Pause

A few routes like Bowstring, Quiver Rib, North Buttress are overgraded in your list looking at the definitive guides in my office.

In reply to Doug: What grade is Snake Ridge? And is Haliltons route the actual route name?

In reply to Offwidth: OK no routes have been deleted currently. The Count now stands at 102 routes.

In reply to Daniel:
I think Snake Ridge is severe but don't have the guide book here, its Hamilton's Route I think, one of 3 on the upper part of the Central Butress.

In reply to Offwidth:
I didn't say it should be regraded. Dumby grades are hard (as are Northumberland & Yorks). Everone knows that. I think that the grades should be consistent within a crag and I'm happy that Longbow is harder than Windjammer, though both are desperate.

I just happen to think that Windjammer is possibly (at HVS) harder than ANY E1 I've done ! The guy who led it has o/s E5 and he was having a tough time on it.

But I would let it be. You just have to look at it to see its gonna be hard so its not going to sandbag someone into getting hurt.

I wasn't calling for them to be scrubbed. I was saying that IF you wanted to edit (IF !) then those would be the ones I would take out cos they're not 4 star routes (and an awful lot on there are !!)

In reply to Offwidth: are you mixing N Buttress and N Face route? Same mountain different routes, different grades. N Buttress wasn't on the list.

In reply to TobyA:

Plus you'll get N Buttress for free when you do the descent off Bludgers. Plus its Mod, not Diff. And frankly its a bit scrappy.

G

In reply to GFoz: I was only having a bit of fun...not enough people out there aguing that if some grades are moving up for reasons of 'logic' then some should be going down too, especially with modern pro and sticky rubber. By the sound of it you should be trying some soft E2's

I find stars much more subjective than grades, especially on long routes. It depends as much on the conditions, the company and any incidents.. when I climbed Hammer there was a blizzard from half way. I'd led the crux but failed in the snow on the upper traverse out from the corner seconding and took a 5m lob wrecking my buffallo jacket. Got back on and led the last 'pitch'.

In reply to Daniel:

If you're going to make this a published list you'll have to do some QA of it- there's at least two duplicates- Sword of Gideon is not on Ben Bahn(who wrote that?) and Diabaig is nowhere near it. Sword of Gideon is on Sgurr a'Chaorachain, Applecross peninsula.

Also, Islivig Direct is the only route with the name Islvig in it on the Tealasdale Slabs.

In reply to Daniel
Sorry to harp on but you're still carrying The Needle as HVS.

In reply to Jack Frost:
I'd say that Diabeg and Applecross were in the same general vicinity?

In reply to Jack Frost: He HAS got SoG down as Applecross. Seems to have mistakenly put it down twice though.

In reply to GFoz: If you go up the chimneys it is neither mod or scrappy. A superb first rock route to take people out on. Plenty of comfy ledges with quick belays (spikes) so you don't need to go miles above them out of sight as that can freak beginners out. Its a toptastic route summer or winter.

In reply to Daniel:
If you remove Hammer and Spartan slab that means there is nothing that a sub HVS person can do on Etive, the only place where people can get used to running it out a bit.
The Aonach Dubh routes in the easy grades are routes that lead up to the summit of the mountain, big boots and sack jobs for when you do not want to flog up a path all the way.

In reply to Daniel:
At the risk of repeating what I said earlier in the thread, most of the routes are accepted multi-pitch classics, whose respective merits may be argued over, but which in general are well-known to most Scottish climbers. (Only Islivig and Cengalo were new names to me.)
So what about a Scottish single-pitch hit-list? It would probably throw up a lot more unfamiliar and interesting venues and routes.
Anyone want first go,,,

In reply to sutty: Agreed and IMHO they deserve to stay in their own right.

In reply to Colin M "I'd say that Diabeg and Applecross were in the same general vicinity?"

You own a helicopter do you or are you ignoring the single track mountain roads with 50% of the drivers ignoring the highway code which takes an hour if clear. Its often an easier drive from the Roaches to Snowdonia.

In reply to IanMcC: OK that could be done I think I have a decant version of the tpo 100 multi-pitch list. Once I get it up on the web I will start the single pitch list.

Daniel

In reply to Daniel:

I was having a think about this listing.

Classic Rock famously tried to identify the must do mountain routes below VS in Scotland. Lots of them are now VS but I think I've said enough about this.

Only 2 routes from CR are missing from the listing:

One is the Cuillin traverse. This is a special case being a huge ridge walk with only occasional climbing pitches, none of which on their own belong in such select company.

The other is Curving Crack (Severe) in the Coe.

I've done it and it's not that amazing but at least its clean sound rock , which is more than can be said for Clachaig Gully

Is it the weakest entry in Classic Rock?


G

Ok here is the latest version of the list, in pdf format for easy printing and colour coded route grades. I also added a column for recording when you did the route.

http://www.therealitydysfunction.com/pages/route-lists.htm

I will get the HTML version sorted soon but its 1024 KB at the moment as MSOffice did some silly stuff when I exported it. If it is ok then I will start the single pitch list.

Cheers,

Daniel

In reply to Daniel: HTML version sorted too. Any comments anyone?

Daniel

In reply to Daniel:


erm... theres already a hell of a lot of single pitch routes in your 'multi pitch listing'....

In reply to GFoz: More than likely as I don't have Guidebooks for allot of those routes and the list kinda became a multi-pitch list. How many single pitch routes are we talking about as I don't know allot of them. We could take the single pitch routes out and use them to start the single pitch list I supose.

Someone will need to point out the other single pitch routes to me (apart from Monster Crack as its the only single pitch I am aware of in the list).

Cheers,

Daniel

In reply to GFoz: The Cobbler and the Aonoch Eagach are about 40 mile apart. You seem to think they are the same place.

In reply to TobyA: OK Fixed that, it must have been a copy error by me. Any other errors or Single pitchs?

Daniel

In reply to Daniel: HTML Version updated, I can't update the pdf easily so will work with the HTML version until I get most of the errors/SP routes out of it

In reply to Daniel:

there's heaps - too many to fix and keep my job !!!

In reply to Offwidth:

If I was based in Torridon and was looking for climbing options a short drive away then both Applecross and Diabeg would fit the bill perfectly.

Anonymous was me

In reply to Anonymous:

And if you based around North Manchester near the Motorway the same would apply to the Lakes, Snowdonia, Lancashire, Yorkshire and the Peak. Having said that I do enjoy using Sheildaig or Torridon as a base.

In reply to Offwidth: Ok I think I am going to start the single pitch list in another thread how about just the top 100 single pitch routes in scotland?

Daniel

In reply to Daniel: You seem to have Savage Slit in Coire an Lochain in there twice. Oh, and you've missed the "h" out of Clachaig Gully.

In reply to Martin W: So I did thanks for pointing that out.

In reply to Daniel:


There aren' that meany truly classy ones. Can we include Northumberland ?