UKC

Thanks in part to Ef for this brilliant idea. We were just thinking about tides, and how powerful the moon's attraction must be to move oceans of water around. Thus maybe it could have quite a lot of effect on something as small as a climber (generally weighing less than an ocean of water or perhaps not in FHs case especially after a night down the local).

So ideally one would time one's hardest ascents (such as headpointing Great Slab with pre-placed chalk and a stack of 12 bouldering mats tied to the crag) when the moon was directly overhead to be 'sucked up' just like the tide.

Or perhaps this is what people mean when they talk about high (or low) gravity days....maybe there is some genuine truth in the saying??



* Please don't kill this topic this time. Instead maybe have a think about it and post a sensible reply? *

In reply to Fiend:

The moon has more to do with your moods than you think. Over the years I kept a diary on my moods and I noticed that during a new moon I was more argumentative than normal. So if it afects your moods it must subtlally afect the way you climb.

Add to that the effect of biorythams and you will know when to train and when to rest.

Good job I'm a male lemming otherwise I would have to worry about other 28 day cycles, becides the moon's 28 day cycle.

In reply to The Lemming:

Lunar cycles are very useful for Alpine climbing. During my NZ season (where climbing at night is often very sensible) I tried to plan my biggest routes for full moons, helping routefinding but more importantly making the climbing more enjoyable.

A byproduct of this relating to the Lemmings point was that I felt tired but very satisfied just after full moons!

In reply to Fiend:

I think in order to test this theory you should try jumping up and down repeatedly on alternate full and new moons, in rigorous scientific conditions and with witnesses. Then post your results. The scientific value will be zero, but it will give the rest of us a laugh.

In reply to RockLobster:

An excellent plan, any volunteers for the witnesses??

In reply to Fiend:

Okay, let's calculate the relative effects of the gravitational attraction of earth and moon on a mass on the earth's surface, using Newton's law of gravitational attraction:

F = (G * m1 * m2)/d^2

i.e. the force if proportional to the mass, and inversely proportional to the square of the distance. G is the universal gravitational constant, m1 and m2 are the masses, and d is the distance between centres of mass.

So, let's take a fat punter, say, m1 = 100 kg.

For the earth,

m2 = 6.0e24 kg
d = 6.4e6 m (radius of the earth)
Fe = 981 N

(not surprising, since we know that F = ma, where a in this case is the acceleration due to gravity, or g = 9.81m/s^2)

for the moon

m2 = 7.3e22 kg
d = 3.9e8 m (distance from earth to moon)

Fm = 0.0032 N

So, the ratio of lunar to terrestrial forces is

Fm/Fe

= 0.0032/981

i.e. 0.00033%

So, no, you don't get 'low gravity' days because of the moon.


Now go and look at:

http://www.npl.co.uk/mass/faqs/gravity.html

for some interesting comments about gravity, latitude and altitude...

or try the questions at:

http://www.emanuel.org.uk/curriculum/science/physics/website/alevel/aprobs/...

In reply to captain paranoia:

Splendid that is exactly the sort of answer I needed even if it spoils the mystery of the idea a bit. Although I didn't understand a symbol of it.

0.00033% eh. So on the right day I could be climbing E0.00033 cool that's a step in the right direction :P

In reply to Fiend:

Oh no, don't tell me I've started you off on a call for fractional E grades now...

you'll be suggesting this 5.13 malarkey next.

In reply to captain paranoia:

No that was firmly tongue in cheek!!

In reply to Fiend:

Ah, well, with the advent of voting facilities such as on the databases here, E grades could indeed be expressed fractionally, as an average of the voted grades.

Of course, you'd need some means of coping with the lower grades. You could, for instance, start using a negative E grade, so HVS becomes E-1, VS E-2, HS E-3, etc...

In reply to The Lemming:

Must be purely psychological then, since the only difference between a new moon and a full moon is how much light it reflects from the sun to Earth...the *whole* moon is still there, even though you can't see it, and it passes "directly" overhead (or as near directly as your latitude and the moon's orbital inclination allows) approximately once per day, whether it's lit up or not.

The "new" or "full" bit is just a function of where in its orbit the moon is (ie, whether the earth is between it and the sun or whether it's between the earth and the sun, or somewhere between either of these). There's the tiny daily gravitational effect noted by Capt. P, and another tiny one acording to whether the moon is at the perigee or apogee of its orbit.

Surprised there'd even be psychological effects for most people, since I bet not one in 20 is even aware of what the moon's phase is at any time, given that we live mainly indoors or in light-washed cities, and hardly notice the thing most of the time.

In reply to Rob Naylor:

Good morning.

I do not wish to cause any disrespect and agree with your comments on the mechanics of how that big blue bit of cheese spins around our rock.

However from my own personal observations I have discovered that, wheter I know what phase the moon is or not, I tend to be more argumentative during a new moon. These things are very subtle and for me are a warning sign to be more careful about what I say and how I say it.

For me climbing can be a subtle sport. One day you are climbing like Spiderman and the next your climbing like a lump of lard. I believe everything has a cycle in it somewhere. You just have to find it and work with it.

If the moon can drag vast quantities of water around then I'm sure that it can subtlly affect moods, chemicles or what ever that are swilling around in our brains.

Even though we live in a sanatised world where we don't know what phase of the moon is at I believe that people who try to get outdoors some how become in tune with nature again. After all climbing, for me, is about being in tune with nature and my surroundings.

In reply to The Lemming:


Of course. The gravitational effects on a human scale are huge. (Someone above has described them as minute!) And the effects on human beings are very well known. The origin of both the words lunacy and menstruation.

Quite disgraceful that anyone with any interest in the outdoors should not understand the orbit and phases of the moon. Sadly a vast proportion of the population don't. (Remember classic occasion on the Do you want to be a millionaire? where the question was - for 500,000 pounds: How long does it take for the moon to go round the earth? Tarrant said very slowly: a week? a month? a year? Contestant couldn't confer/ring anybody up. Very long pause. A week.)

In reply to Fiend: Everyone knows that gravity is a myth - the earth sucks. And if you do not climb with your personal bio-rhythms, moon-in-birth-sign, FT index firmly in mind, you do yourself a great disservice. How do you think Jonny does it?

In reply to Fiend:
The moon calender is still commonly used by a lot of European people. My wife is Austrian and it is part of the way of life for some industries over there, particularly timber, agriculture, and believe it or not even hair dressing. The phases of the moon are linked with the astral calender to produce diaries which people use as a rule of thumb to guide certain decisions. There are best hair cutting days (you try getting a hair cut on Lion day over there!!). Also a couple of world famous timber yard will only cut trees on certain phases of the moon dependant on the required use for the wood, low or no moon produces a dryer timber etc, this is further complicated by the part of the growning season, like all plants different minerals are pulled from the soil over the growning period rendering differernt properties in the wood.
Drawing closer to climbing, glaciers are frozen water; some older guides say there is a link between moon phases and ice fall / cerac stability. To get onto to the human body and climbing, the moon will affect fluid levels and retention (alpinists note, Messner, Bhul and Diemburger all knew this stuff) thus because water is a key compound of the body (60%), the mineral delivery will also be affected. It has been proven by study of common operations that better results are obtained at different moon phases. It is also imporant to remember that the moon affects us day as well as night, tides flow in the day too. Generally in the rising moon the body will find it easier to gain strength and absorb nutrients and therfore should perform better.
Mood is also commonly known to be tied to moon phases. By linking all these factors I would say that it is entirely reasonable to assume that the moon will affect climbing performance, also adding directly by improved night visibility etc. How you measure it is another thing.

In reply to Fiend:


The very fact that you felt the slightest need to put the record straight there, is worrying.

In reply to Mike Whittaker:
Not putting the record straight really, just adding something to the knowledge pot. When I first heard it I thought it was a load of T***sh, but having lived in Austria and spent time among mountain living people there is definately something in it, I've tried it and it has worked (a bit!!, apres climbing party / drinking lark tends to cloud the effect, and the mind / body!ha!ha!)

In reply to Jules King:

In reply to Fiend:

In reply to Mike Whittaker:

Hello!