UKC

I fear this thread may come across as very negative, and I’m sorry if so.

Is anyone else concerned about developments in behaviour at Dinorwic?

I have been going climbing in the quarries for about 8 years and noticed yesterday for the first time amongst other things: 1) A whole load of graffiti, particularly in the entrance to California and California itself. A big red “Cymru Rydd” at the base of California Arete (absolutely no problem with the sentiment, but should we be spray painting the rock)? And a much uglier random series of scrawlings higher up in the quarry. 2) A whole load of (by the looks of it, non climbers) walking directly over/underneath very loose slate and scree at the back of Australia particularly and in other areas. No helmets or good shoes or apparent awareness that parts of the slate slopes are very loose. I just feel like that’s an accident waiting to happen, but maybe I’m overhyping it? Also, totally ignoring the fence at Dali’s hole which according to the guide at least we’re not supposed to go through as part of the access agreement! 3) A much increased amount of litter! Can’t understand how people just don’t take their stuff home with them!
 

Very much in favour of everyone getting their turn to enjoy the quarries, just want to preserve its awesome beauty, and just starting to be worried about the risks of losing access to this very special place! Need I be concerned? Has anyone else noticed this? Could we as a community be doing more to protect the quarries? Thoughts? 

Apparently the caban has been looted of all its artifacts as well, which if true has only happened in the past three or four years.

Looted or burnt, IIRC. No respect.

I love climbing on the slate - but I don't get there very often these days. I'm sorry to hear about the graffiti: irrespective of the sentiments involved, it's unnecessary.

My first thought/question is: who or what is the 'community' to which you refer?

Fwiw. Long before it was a climbing venue friends used to drop acid and then go wandering around the quarries and tunnels. 

Did they grafitti or burn the stuff in the huts?

It's a favourite place for YouTubers to film themselves 'discovering' abandoned streets and other quarry remains, literally hundreds of films exist. 

Unfortunately this has seemed to coincide with an accelerated misuse of the quarries. It's happened all over the place. It pisses me off.

Note that there are other YouTubers who are careful not to name the locations they film.

Seriously "misuse"? Gosh. They are an enormous, ugly, great rent on the hill side. Wouldn't be suprised if other groups think climbers misuse it.

Misuse, for me, might be a nuclear power station. But a bit of graffiti or others doing their thing, no.

But each to their own. 

I've also seen plenty of antisocial behaviour, and have had to reprimand several groups for chucking rocks from the higher levels of Australia in particular. I think it is quite tricky to say what we as a climbing community can do though, particularly given that it seems to be non-climbers more often than not who are causing. The obvious easy pickings would be to pick up any litter we might find, and to reprimand anyone we see misusing the quarries, but these are hardly preventative measures and are unlikely to do anything to combat graffiti, or destruction of the existing structures there (even the closed gate to access Australia and California was broken and repaired during my time near there over Easter). I would hate to see access be limited further, but I am concerned

I think that this is pretty much it. We have 'influencers' encouraging people into areas, and a small but significant number of these people either don't know how to behave with respect, or are deliberately antisocial.

We're just outside the Lake District, but seem to have been 'discovered'. We've got people with motorhomes just dumping the contents of their toilets on the carparks before driving off, we've had numerous fires caused by disposable BBQs, and a couple of deliberate arson attempts, on SSSIs, and the standard nappies, broken bottles and litter everywhere else.

Sadly, a lot of people are just scum.

My experience is most are perfectly respectable people. There are obviously minority exceptions of vandals, litterers, terrible parking etc., but why blame everyone when a world heritage site is surely to be experienced? My real concerns are for the safety of some who look very wobbly on exposed terrain, especially when slopes are wet.

It would be great if everytime an influencer recommend a similarly known risky place on social media that a safety warning was auto-inserted by moderators before the first reply (something not happening any time soon given the social media sites have become even more of a 'wild west' than the quarries.... let alone the even bigger accident 'hotspots' in Snowdonia).

In reply to Abel Nicholas:

ChatGPT or a different LLM?

Wasn't it a well-known climber who 'liberated' all the slates (or at least 2000 of them...) off the roof of Australia Mill, thereby leaving the building and the machinery within open to the vagaries of the Welsh weather? 

I couldn't disagree more. The quarries are there now, made by man but surely their austere beauty can be appreciated and stand as a monument to the slate industry, the quarrymen and the social history of Wales.

The quarrymen left because they were fired. They downed tools and left them in situ with their boots and coats. I would consider it a mark of respect both to the quarrymen and modern wanderers yet to discover the quarries that the artefacts remain untouched and not exploited for some shallow clickbait on youtube for the sole purpose of gaining subscribers and hence, money.

I was told that the quarrymen worked in small teams and had to supply their own hand tools (hammers, crowbars etc) and boots, jackets etc - and the reason so many were abandoned is the first they heard of closure or getting laid off, it was too late to go and get their stuff

I think there may be several overlapping issues here: local young people, who have no where to go and, subsequently, get up to mischief; increasing visitor interest in these places, including new demographics with a different ethos; increasing numbers of visiting climbers. Each of these needs a different approach - but, the thing they have in common is that funding is needed to sort them out in a comprehensive way. Instead, Labour austerity is exacerbating the problems of Tory austerity.

As for climbers, I think we could do more by avoiding being condemnatory, engaging positively with people we meet in the "outdoors" to encourage better behaviour, and using all means at our disposal to communicate the value of these outdoor spaces to as wide an audience as possible. Even better would be if local climbing clubs can engage directly with local young people, invite them into climbing as a way of engaging with and valuing the landscape, and encourage them to become guardians of their own local environments. We should also sort out our own littering and abuse of places (e.g. poor toileting; cutting down vegetation; patio-ing - and more).

This might seem a bit idealistic, but it's important to recognise that problem behaviour is coming from somewhere - whether that's working-class kids being "naughty" or middle-class people, so lost in their solipsism that they can empty their chemical toilet in someone's local wood and then continue their "adventure" with no cognitive dissonance. For me all this is rooted in rising social inequality, a lack of political agency and the devaluing of social cooperation and conviviality, including through attacks on the welfare apparatus and public services. When our government is content to let children live in poverty for the sake of a miserly £3.5 billion, it shouldn't be surprising that people don't feel obliged to care for the spaces we live in. I really feel that this connection between austerity and a decayed social contract is very direct and keenly felt by many people.

Great post...

The only addition I'd make, is some middle class kids with laissez faire parents can be the worst behaved, with more resources to help make mischief. In that line I'd argue it's not just the impact of austerity,  it's more like it seems to many that older generations have fracked everyone's future, but especially those of the young.

As a 6 year old living in a semi-derelict cottage in Blue Peris in the late 1970s, my older (half) brother (8) and I would yomp up the track to where the Dinorwic bus terminus is.

There used to be a huge hole in the ground there with a deep pool at the bottom (all since filled in). Its vastness terrified me.

We used to spend what seemed like hours throwing rocks down there - the splash was immense. It was brilliant fun.

In middle England we had trees, derelict buildings, farms, old Sandstone quarries and the odd fun days annoying the officious, especially: golfers, the hunt, and pheasant gamekeepers.

Presumably that's what is now Bus Stop quarry?

I guess so - so long since I've been there. When i first walked on the filled-in hole it messed with my head. I thought the ground would give way - that hole had seemed so vast to my young eyes.  I think they pulled 16 cars out of it when the drained it. A local guy used to run insurance jobs in the 70/80s and that pit was his chosen disposal site.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/pK1Xmy9qnGHjUCqd7?g_st=ac