UKC

Firstly, I'll get the caveats out the way! I am not trying to belittle any achievements here or take away from any of the seriously hard climbs that have been done over the last few years I am just genuinely trying to understand this issue a bit better!

Also, I am solely a sports climber and boulderer however have been following the progression of all types of climbing for some time.

My question is this, how dangerous is E8 and above in reality? I have seen hard grit and other clips of top end trad and yes it looks incredibly difficult but is it really that dangerous? I understand the poor protection and sticky landing but I have also seen a hell of a lot of massive falls on these mega-climbs which have not resulted in any kind of injury!

Even Mr McLeod took some, admittedly massive and I'm sure scary falls on his E11, but once again was not hurt!

So why is E9 and above called 'death on a stick' and so revered when it appears not that dangerous!

In reply to Don Boulder:


Got your flameproof suit ready, Don?

In reply to Don Boulder:

Ask Gresham about Meshuga (E9)

In reply to Tim Chappell: Yeah, braced and ready! But, I am trying to ask a serious question!

In reply to Don Boulder:

I guess E9 7c would be pretty safe.

"The swing in is extremely violent, sprained ankles, badly cut and bruised feet, legs and back and a crushed calf muscle were experienced."

He looked in a fair bit of pain in the vid.

In reply to Don Boulder:

There are E10s, 9s, 8s, 7s, 6s, 5s etc which are solos, or pratically solos which you very well may die on if you were to fall.

There are E10s, 9s, 8s, 7s, 6s, 5s etc however that are relatively safe - even the bold ones.

In reply to Don Boulder:

Never climbed E8 or ever will, but I would imagine that at that grade protection is poor and limited, so when you do pop off, it's not until you are re-connected that you are out of the failing pro' woods.

In reply to Don Boulder:

Read this and all shall be made clear:

http://www.aqvi55.dsl.pipex.com/climb/uk_grades.htm

In reply to Don Boulder:

I don't think it is anymore is it? Climbed in the dark by every man and his dog.

E10 is the new E9.

In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:

Everyone is doing them.

I heard that E7 is the new E5....or was that new E7's are old E5's, or was it that old E5's are actually E7!!!

I'll ask Pickles tonight.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Hmm, I'm beginning to see why I do sports! 9a+ now thats impressive!

In reply to Don Boulder:


It's 'sport', sport! Not 'sports'.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Hmm, I'm beginning to see why I do sport!!!

In reply to Don Boulder:

but not quite as impressive as 9b or even 9b+ thats out there now... (some grade contention allowing...)

- no seriously i still think of E7 or above as hard - unless its a boulder problem like Kluze Klien or somesuch..

In reply to Jeff25: Its all degrees of sick-hard!

In reply to Jeff25:

I still think of VS as pretty steep :-o

In reply to Don Boulder: E9 can be anything from around sport 7b+ on snappy rock with a tied off RURP as the only protection for 30 metres or it could be sport 8b+ with bomber gear (if you're strong enough to place it).

There are lots more lines in the UK with bold 7c climbing then there are with safe 8b climbing, so more E9s are bold rather than safe. However, most of the E9 routes that get repeats are the ones like Parthion Shot with limited or spaced gear but only with 7c+/8a climbing.

It makes perfect sense to anyone who trad climbs appears completely confusing if you don't. No doubt I'll get corrected but the following examples might help:

Bold E9 - Soloing a 40metre 7b+ wall climb with slightly dubious rock on tiny crimps and tenuous sidepulls.

Average E9 - Similar to climbing a steep 8a only clipping one bolt at half height with the crux at 3/4 height.

Safe E9 - Similar to climbing 8b+ sport placing the draws on lead.

HTH

In reply to Mark Stevenson: That is the best explanation I have heard, thanks.

That explains why it is possible for things to get very messy of some E9's whilst others may be technically nails but actually quite safe.

I assume that the falls I am talking about are in the 'average-safe' category.

In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:

Except for a well known E9 on Cloggy, that is, and a few on Scafell.

In reply to Don Boulder:
>

Same as for any other adjectival grade you could care to mention (OK maybe not Mods, even I have never fallen off a Mod!).

In reply to TRNovice: To a point, surely! The very fact that a climb has good protection, by its nature will make it an easier climb, hence why the truely hardest technical climbs have to be bolted.

In reply to Don Boulder:


How on earth do you get that? A sheer wall with a thin crack running down it will have great pro, so be very safe, but won't affect the climbing since you can't use it.

In reply to Don Boulder:It's worth noting that above E8 is hypothetical onsight grade. And most people who set off on the "death on a stick solo routes" and practiced like mad and usually smoked a massive spliff to calm the nerves!

In reply to thomasadixon: Ok, go easy, like I say I'm a sport / boulderer! I just would have thought, that on the whole if you can get good pro in then the climbing would be easier. Is this incorrect or do you get VS 7C?

In reply to Don Boulder:

Sorry!

Even if the pro was amazing the route wouldn't go down that much - lots of routes are straight cracks with gear all over the place but don't go down to Diff (Tigers Don't Cry/The Russian/Disaster Area are ones I can think of). Don't know about 7C (too high for me to imagine!) but those are all 5a and don't drop just because they've got good gear.

In reply to thomasadixon: I beginning to see now! I think I am getting the hang of this trad malarky!

In reply to Don Boulder:

There are plenty of trad routes around the world that are in French 8 territory.

In reply to Don Boulder:

I don't completely agreed. I think the single biggest factor is there are far greater numbers of top climbers climbing sport routes than there are ones climbing trad.

It's obvious the hardest routes will be bolted since they are the routes that the best climbers are trying to climb.

There are plenty of 'last great projects' out-there that would probably already have been climbed if bolted, but because they are on 'trad' cliffs they will be left for the next generation.

However, you are correct in that there is an indirect link between gear and difficulty. Any gear placement will also act as a handhold so the better the gear the more good holds there are likely to be. Therefore there is a slight trend that harder routes generally have less gear, but there are still lots of hard and relatively safe routes.

In reply to Derbyshire Ben:

Really? I wouldnt have thought there were that many. - hmm actualy yes i suppose.
Quite a few in Spain on the Costa Blanca but lots in America as well.

Anyone know if Digital Crack in the Alps is bolted? Beautiful looking 8a.

In reply to Jeff25: My leg broke into 5 places just hitting an indoor mat, nothing different it just snapped. The people I know well who have climbed and failed on some hard things were pretty shocked by the severity of my injury on good matting. If I did that on mat's just think of the mess you'd be in decking out on some of these things. Yes, some people have been extremely lucky failing on E9's 10's etc but that won't always be the case. I think big johne dunne's quote from hard grit is a poignant one in this case.

In reply to Don Boulder:
>

You see things like VS 5c, 5c would "normally" be around E2/3.

In reply to Don Boulder:

What is confusing you (as it does a lot of people) is thinking that the adjectival grade equates to seriousness. It is actually the overall grade. A better way of thinking about it is in terms of equivalence: an F8a is equivalent to a climb that is E7, however where the 8a can assume regular protection in the form of bolts, the E7 could be easy but very bold climbing or absolute nails but safe or anything in between.

It's a bit like having a short bouldery 8a vs a long sustained one, they are both 8a, just different.

When you stand beneath a route it usually makes sense, sort of.

boB

In reply to Don Boulder:
I dislike grading climbs on principle--it boxes you into thinking that certain climbs are bound to be easier or harder than others of different grades. At the end of the day it's all down to your own personal impressions, skills and experience.