UKC

Having just read '9/10 climbers make the same mistakes' - which I highly recommend - I wondered how many out there regularly practice falling off trad routes and whether they would recommend such things?

In reply to jonwright: Like i would recomnd concussion a fractured skull , internal bleeding and crushed vertibrae..

This whole concept of .."fall off its safe" is a worrying development.

In reply to muppetfilter: but how else would you feel confident leading a neer your limit above the gear?

In reply to jonwright:
Place some ridiculously good gear, maybe even equalise a couple of pieces,
and give it a shot...
When It does come to falling properly, I'd much rather be good at it...
even a small fall done badly can be much much worse than one done well.

In reply to muppetfilter:

Falling off in a controlled fashion, on known good gear is pretty safe. I can't understand why you need to practice it though; in reality falling in a totally controlled fashion onto gear you know is bombproof isn't a good model for what you are likely to be doing. I don't tend to fall in a controlled fashion because when I fall off I'm normally off balance, pumped stupid and shaking like a leaf which is not something I'd do deliberately!

My only large trad fall ended up being a 7-8m semi-inverted pendulum swing which started about 9m up, I knew the gear was bomb proof but you couldn't pay me to do it again! Slumping onto gear a few times first wouldn't have made it any less unpleasant.

In reply to Reach>Talent: Isn't that reason enough to practice. The more you do it the better you become at controlling it and the less likely to hurt yourself. Also the greater confidence it gives would mean you were less likely to fall in the first place. But that's just what I've read - I've not tried it yet

In reply to muppetfilter:


Maybe just a tad hysterical?

OP: If you want to practice falling to see how it feels do it somewhere safe and comfortable, the wall is ideal or try a bit of redpointing somewhere steep and clean.

If you want to trust your gear then maybe try a bit of clean aid where you'll actually be making difficult placements and testing them. There's little point in falling on bomber gear just to see it works... a well jammed nut/hex or bomber thread obviously works! Deliberately falling on questionable gear is a bad idea obviously even if it's backed up by a lower piece there's a chance of getting flipped or having your face smashed by the ripping gear/placement. There's also wear and tear on the placement.

No, I don't specifically practice falling, it just happens as part of my normal climbing. The more I go for it, the more I fall. The worse the gear/consequences are the less I go for it!

jk

In reply to jonwright:
I don't rack up a lot of air time although I enjoy the rush you get from a good fall and I trust my gear placements. In my opinion if you fall off in a position that you can control it well then chances are you gave up too soon.

You don't want to be practicing falling in less than ideal situations for the same reasons you don't want to practice hopping with a broken leg, it isn't much fun and doesn't gain you much.

In reply to jonwright:
You should boulder, that way you don't have to worry about shit gear.... you just have to worry about holding on (if you don't let go, you don't fall off!)

In reply to jonwright: That's a bit like saying throw yourself in front of a slow moving lorry a few times so that when faced with a fast moving one you will be more prepared. Seriously whilst there is some logic to what you say it would only prepare you for similar situations i.e. bomber gear and a safe fall zone. It is rarely like that in reality. I think that this idea comes from the sports climbing environment and that is where it should stay.

Al

In reply to jkarran:I dont know about hysterical.

The danger is when people come rather quickly into climbing, then sport climb a few times then start leading. Every year there will be a serious injury or Death reported on this website..... "5 bits of gear ripped out'

I hate to read it and my heart goes out to the injured or worse party and their families. To look at why these occur , I cant use the word accident as these are ineviable incidents. People are over confident in safety equipment, push grades too quickly and eventually end up in a situation where pro and ropework is inferior. This results in the inevitable ground fall.

In reply to jonwright:

I've found myself gripped (where my rational mind knows the gear is good, but just can't get me to do the moves) and jumped off to try and break the pattern. This has sometimes worked well for me, speaking personally I think its improtant to go on and finsih the route in such circumstances. I'd recomend giving it a go if you are struggling for commitment (assuming you can place good gear!).

I've never deliberately set out to "practice falling" on trad gear but I have done down the wall. Practicing taking falls down the wall never really did much for me but I think that was more to do with my general state of mind at the time, it might work for me if I need it too this winter.

In reply to jonwright:

Not wanting to seem unhelpful but this comes up a fair bit and if you sift the search results there really is some interesting and relevant stuff.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/info/search.php?forum=0&dates=0&na...

falling practice does seem to be more the done thing on sport and indoor. Perhaps because for many trad climbing still has this 'leader must not fall' taboo.

In reply to jonwright:

always remeber this its the most important thing to consider when practice falling...never use your own ropes.

In reply to plexiglass_nick: Thanks very useful - didn't mean to be repetitive

In reply to silo: good point - I was thinking of getting my climbing partner to go first too - but he doesn't know this yet

In reply to jonwright:

i was thinking, if you took a big fall onto a smallish wire and it holds, is there a chance you will have weakened the gear at all?

In reply to jonwright:

I've never deliberately fallen off a trad route. Practice falling where it's safe to do so!

To me, falling off isn't part of trad climbing and is something that should be avoided. I have taken a few falls though and only had gear rip once or twice.

In reply to jonwright:

Plenty of us were doing it over 20 years ago - helps get your head in the right frame of mind for pushing on above the gear. We used to us Minus 10, Wee Doris and the Embankment routes. 20-30' was a decent lob to be taking.

Chris

In reply to Kemics:

I'd certainly check it very carefully, and if I was in any doubt, bin it!

In reply to BeccaSnowden:

I wish there was a safe way to get experienced at what protection holds and what doesn't. The only way to know where the line is is to experience gear fail - practice on a DWS spot perhaps?

In reply to DHeath4:

or use a top rope with slack so will catch if the gear fails

In reply to Kemics:

That's a good idea. Would anyone recomend a session to test gear placements in this way? I'm not really thinking about testing the gear to destruction, more whether the nut's going to slip out.

In reply to BeccaSnowden:

I agree falling isn't part of trad climbing, but crashing isn't part of flying, but that doesn't stop pilots spending hours practicing what to do in a simulator. My thoughts are that if it happens for real, then its best if you know how to deal with it in the best possible way; if that means a bit of practice, albeit in a sanitized kind of way, then I'm all for it.

In reply to jonwright:

In order to prepare your mind better and reduce the effects of 'irrational' fear on your performance above protection, I think it most certainly pays to experience falling in a controlled manner.
That is surely a fact and there is no necessity to risk damaging yourself in order to it.

The key of course is to understand that the goal is to only remove/reduce 'irrational' fear (that of being scared when there is no need)
In order to replicate that for theraputic reasons, it obviously has to be practised in a totally safe situation, or else you'll defeat the object!

Therefore I would describe falling therapy as pretty much mandatory for anyone who is serious about enjoying sport & indoor climbing to the fullest! (In terms of removing totally irrational fear)

I think falling therapy above outdoor bolts is a good place to start for trad runouts, moving on to bomber trad gear if desired.

I'm sure that not many accidents (and they are accidents, assuming they are non-deliberate in nature) have been caused by people 'practising falling' above gear!

I don't think that many accidents occur - proportionately - in climbing, abseiling, mountaineering or any other aspect of our sport that is over and above what would be expected!

Some possible risk is a fact of climbing life... We all accept that don't we??

In reply to DHeath4:


Not really, you'll just end up with bruises and a load of stuck, kinked gear. Bounce testing will probably tell you what you want to know (ie ok or shite?) in a much more controlled way.

jk

In reply to jonwright: Hi, I regularly fall off trad routes because I'm weak and a coward. I wouldn't recommend it because it makes you look shit. I've never hurt myself though, I fact the only time I hurt myself was when I jumped off at the top of a bouldering gym and did my back in. F*****g bouldering...

In reply to DHeath4:

Place a nut/cam at head-height, clip a sling to it, stand in the sling and bounce up and down a bit - you will soon get the idea!

Chris

PS Keep your face (and especially your teeth) out of the way when doing the bounce test!

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Chris how about we just skip the falling and just hammer the gear placements with a cold steel chisel. This will have the same effect as deliberately falling on them. Changeing the nature of the rock forever...

In reply to jonwright: Firstly I know some people that are very luck to be alive taking trad falls.

That said I end up doing air time reasonably often...too often!

Falling has given me confidence in my system and given me a goood idea about what certain gear can and can't take and the knowledge on how to fall as controlled as poss.

BUT I have been climbing a wee while and don't just lob off any thing, I want to climb tomorrow so do it safely. I have never practised falling and would not be the one to recommend it on trad period.

A good place to take falls is indoors high up the route, I would say to try not to fall till 3rd clip. The only problem falling indoors all the time is your poor rope! Outdoors at the top of a safe (preferably overhanging) sport route should be safe and fun, but check the bolts they are not ever guaranteed and always be aware of your fall line.

You usually always end up falling further than you think you will!

In reply to DHeath4:


If you seat your nuts properly with a good yank in the direction they are to take force then there should be zero chance of the "nut's going to slip out"!

In reply to sebrider:

I think the point of the thread was placing/trusting/falling onto trad gear.


Chris

In reply to jonwright: there are some good places to try at Stanage, you could set up under Manchester Butress and just keep lobbing off all day. By the end of it you should be pretty confident in your gear. Let us know how you get on.

In reply to jonwright:

I've found practicing falling at the wall useful. (I was afraid of heights 7 months ago before I started climbing) I've only done one route/10mins of clip and drop practice, but was able to fall/drop 2-3m "comfortably" by the 6th or 7th fall. I've found this has really helped my confidence both when trying to push my grade while top-roping at the wall or trad-leading at the crag.

The timing of my clip and drop session turned out to be impeccable, as I took by first outdoor fall 3 days later (about 2 weeks ago) and I felt surprisingly relaxed! I'm not sure I'd want to practice outside, but my session at the wall, really helped (knowing what to expect, and that your belay can catch you was really reassuring).

If you are worried about gear popping then try climbing a sports route and finding a placement putting something in "ABOVE" the last bolt clipped then jump you can test you gear and if it does fail then no worries + it wont dammage any needed placements on a trad route?

or just get on something hard and really go for it till your off then you test you gear that way

In reply to jonwright:



Falling isn't the dangerous part - it's the sudden deceleration at the end that hurts. There is no way to 'deal' with the fall that is going to make much difference, and each fall is wholly dependent upon the gear, the run-out, the amount of slack and the angles of the rock. Prepare all you want, but if you hit a ledge it's going to hurt. Prepare all you want, but if a runner rips then all your preparation counts for nothing. By all means take a whipper onto a bolt; that will teach you that the fall itself won't hurt. If you assume that such familiarity with air time will enable you to fall with impunity and/or climb without fear or concern, then you are sorely mistaken (or not firing on all cylinders). Confidence in your ability to place a decent runner is not the same as any runner's ability to hold a fall. What does tend to surprise people is the alignment of the ropes once they have held a fall - that's worth sitting on a runner and studying.

In reply to nniff:

If you have the ability to place decent runners then (assuming the availability of such protection) the runners you place should be good, no?

In reply to nniff:

In that case practice falls so your belayer knows how to give you a soft catch (assuming there`s no inconvenient ledges beneath you) would seem like a good idea. As an extreme example compare Dave Macleod on Rhapsody in E11 vs Steve McClure in Committed 2.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

No, because the ability to place a good runner doesn't make a good placement - silk purse out of cow's ear and all that. The ability to place a good runner should at least enable you to assess the quality of the available runners and know that they are poor, suspect, solid enough or bomber.

In reply to jonwright:

As far as I am concerned this is nothing right about falling off a trad route. The fear of falling is not an irrational fear. I always thought that the rope and gear was only there for if things go wrong and there is nothing you can do to stop yourself falling. 11 years and two trad falls. First was I was so pumped and my feet slipped off a hold on a HVS, the other was a hand hold that I thought was solid came off in my hand and there was nothing I could do, that was a S.

In reply to muppetfilter:

Much like climbing on the rock with chalk and sticky rubber then

In reply to jonwright:

Or why not just bolt everything?

eliminate costly and heavy racks of trad gear, render them useless.
Or just take up bouldering and never worry about gear again.....in all serious though, that is why I don't do roped stuff, I can't bring myself to trust a piece of rope as the only thing between me and death, let alone cams...nuts...etc etc.
If i'm bouldering I know there are only 2 things I have to think about failing, my hands....and my feet....and I like it this way.

In reply to slacky:

I think you need to be a little bit carefull judging placements with just that method though, because at Bellhagg I bounce tested what I thought was a deacent small nut placement after pulling it as hard as I could, and the rock crystals broke free and the nut came out. With gritstone I think you need to look at the size of the crystals around the placement, and try and work out what might happen if some of them broke free.

I've never fallen off by the way though, so that's the best way i've found for me to test gear, to bounce test it, and drop a rucksack full of gear off onto a runner and see what happens, not good for a rucksack on a high crag I guess, I should probably do more of that.

Cheers
Tim

In reply to nniff: Falling CAN be the dangerous part. After slipping off a nice V diff on Dartmoor when caught half way up in heavy rain shower, I learnt that good old grainy granite does a fantastic impersonation of a coarse cheese grater as your hands, wrists, elbows, and knees (yes OK wearing shorts, bad mistake, stupid head on etc) bounce off it on the way down. The landing (on the rope) was the easy part! Practice falling...on granite...nope, not my idea of a part of a fun passtime!

In reply to Timmd:

I presume you're talking about headpointing, not normal leading?! If so, I'm surprised you've managed to get to that stage without ever falling off?

In reply to jonwright: there are two sides to this

a)why would you want to fall on trad routes? If you Really want to try falling, falling on a bolt is probably as safe as it gets

b) having taken a couple of big trad falls myself I trust my gear more and don't get as scared when I lead

so I guess you should take a fall at some point - as safe as you can - but I don't see a point in doing it spesifically and regularly

In reply to jonwright:

My problem with this is that straight after I would think "Have I tested the placement or weakened it".

Al

In reply to Michael Gordon:

I'm talking about lying at the top of a low crag called Bellhagg and placing a nut or a friend, and then dropping a rucksack full of gear off onto it to see what happens, and bounce testing a runner with a sling at the bottom of a crag and seeing if it holds.

An early kind of nut on wire made by somebody in Sheffield was tested by the maker dropping a rucksack full of rocks onto it to see if it held, which is where I got the idea I think, there was in interesting article or couple of articles about the evolution of climbing protecting in High quite a few years ago, in connection with the rock climbing protection museum in Corsica. It's a while since i've led, but i'm not a fan of climbing close to my limit so I might fall off.

Cheers
Tim

In reply to Timmd:
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I'd be very concerned about relying on placements where the contact is "crystals"!

Judging the quality of the rock around a placement and how any force generated will be dissipated through to the rock and the surface area over which it will spread is of course also important.

Nut placements shouldn't just "slip out" though (NB this is a passive process where as you are indicating you actively pulling on the placement, and found out that it was poor and another placement is required). Nor should they lift out easily if seated properly and extended appropriately.

In reply to slacky:

So would I now, it was 'large-grain' type grit stone if you what I mean, and seemed really well seated untill I bounced on it, having given it a few big tugs.

Cheers
Tim

In reply to jonwright:


only if you are attached to a rope