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I can not believe that a post about gold mining on beinn udlaidh received no more than an off the cuff cheap remark about the price of gold:come on winter climbers where are your balls!!!!
In reply to melville18:
Isn't the price of gold rather relevant? Here's an extract from the prospecting company's presentation to the national park authority:
"The operation will produce around 20,000 ozs of gold and 80,000 ozs of silver annually [about 3 tons] from the treatment of 72000 tons of material. With the currently defined resource, production operations are expected to last about 8 years. From an independent study completed last
year, the project requires around £12.5M in capital expenditure.
At current gold prices (£760 /oz), the project will generate around £110M in gross revenue over its duration and will create 52 full time jobs in a rural community whose current active skills base is largely centred on the seasonal tourist trade. The majority of these jobs can be filled by locally available skills. There are obviously also indirect employment opportunities created by the goods and services required by the operation which have wider implications than the Tyndrum area."
The discrepancy between the amounts of gold/silver and waste is striking. Yet gold is expensive stuff and so there's money to be had. The presentation notes that "The economic study conducted by independent consultants in mid 2009 indicated a viable project at a ‘floor’ gold price of £450 per oz ($720/oz). At higher prices, the project provided exceptional returns with significant free cashflows generated post the repayment of project capital. The current price is around £760 /oz (or $1200 per ounce) – in excess of 60% above that considered in the study, with a period of continued moderate strengthening expected over the next few years due to uncertainties in the global financial position." See, it's all about the price of gold.
Balancing development and preservation needs is not easy. The area could surely do with some extra development, but at what price to the natural environment? An important point is that mining is expected to continue for only eight years, yet the spoil heap will be left forever. The presentation talks about restoration work and claims that the resulting spoil heap will be similar to nature landscape features in the area. This sounds bizarre to me but I'm not an expert in the field. What is clear is that the spoil heap was one of the national park's main concerns.
Where next? This from the company's announcement following the planning permission refusal:
"Scotgold is considering its options in relation to this refusal but is likely to appeal to the Scottish Ministers. Any appeal would need to
be lodged within three months and Scotgold will make a further release shortly to advise its intentions.
Looks like this will rumble on for a while yet. In the meantime, go and do Eas Anie if you haven't yet - it's a nice route and it's located right behind an exploration rig, so I imagine access would be compromised if the development does go ahead, nor would it be as nice a location.
As for Ben Udlaidh, the press release states that "We remain committed to exploration at our other prospects located outside the National Park’s boundaries at Beinn Udlaidh and other areas." There a couple of maps showing the exploration areas here:
http://www.scotgoldresources.com/assets/pdf/asx/High%20Gold%20and%20Silver%...
This shows that there is a gold vein running along the left hand side (looking in) of the summit plateau and descending into Coire Ghamhnain. Clearly this would be a landscape issue and could present an access issue. The company is continuing its exploration work (there is reference to an airborne magnetic survey early next year), so we're still some time away from a planning application (I'm assuming one would be required, even though it's outside the NP). Once the application is lodged, it will be time to start making objections and hopefully MCofS will be on the case. Coire Daimh is a stunning place and a great winter climbing location, so it would be a real pity to have it damaged. I'd rather they got the ok for the Cononish development, not just because the winter climbing is much more limited but also because it's not a particularly striking place.
And on a lighter note... The company's press release in relation to Ben Udlaidh mentions "River Orchy near where coarse gold has been panned previously". Next time you rock up at Ben Udlaidh and it's not in condition, you know what to do instead - pack that seive!
Isn't the price of gold rather relevant? Here's an extract from the prospecting company's presentation to the national park authority:
"The operation will produce around 20,000 ozs of gold and 80,000 ozs of silver annually [about 3 tons] from the treatment of 72000 tons of material. With the currently defined resource, production operations are expected to last about 8 years. From an independent study completed last
year, the project requires around £12.5M in capital expenditure.
At current gold prices (£760 /oz), the project will generate around £110M in gross revenue over its duration and will create 52 full time jobs in a rural community whose current active skills base is largely centred on the seasonal tourist trade. The majority of these jobs can be filled by locally available skills. There are obviously also indirect employment opportunities created by the goods and services required by the operation which have wider implications than the Tyndrum area."
The discrepancy between the amounts of gold/silver and waste is striking. Yet gold is expensive stuff and so there's money to be had. The presentation notes that "The economic study conducted by independent consultants in mid 2009 indicated a viable project at a ‘floor’ gold price of £450 per oz ($720/oz). At higher prices, the project provided exceptional returns with significant free cashflows generated post the repayment of project capital. The current price is around £760 /oz (or $1200 per ounce) – in excess of 60% above that considered in the study, with a period of continued moderate strengthening expected over the next few years due to uncertainties in the global financial position." See, it's all about the price of gold.
Balancing development and preservation needs is not easy. The area could surely do with some extra development, but at what price to the natural environment? An important point is that mining is expected to continue for only eight years, yet the spoil heap will be left forever. The presentation talks about restoration work and claims that the resulting spoil heap will be similar to nature landscape features in the area. This sounds bizarre to me but I'm not an expert in the field. What is clear is that the spoil heap was one of the national park's main concerns.
Where next? This from the company's announcement following the planning permission refusal:
"Scotgold is considering its options in relation to this refusal but is likely to appeal to the Scottish Ministers. Any appeal would need to
be lodged within three months and Scotgold will make a further release shortly to advise its intentions.
Looks like this will rumble on for a while yet. In the meantime, go and do Eas Anie if you haven't yet - it's a nice route and it's located right behind an exploration rig, so I imagine access would be compromised if the development does go ahead, nor would it be as nice a location.
As for Ben Udlaidh, the press release states that "We remain committed to exploration at our other prospects located outside the National Park’s boundaries at Beinn Udlaidh and other areas." There a couple of maps showing the exploration areas here:
http://www.scotgoldresources.com/assets/pdf/asx/High%20Gold%20and%20Silver%...
This shows that there is a gold vein running along the left hand side (looking in) of the summit plateau and descending into Coire Ghamhnain. Clearly this would be a landscape issue and could present an access issue. The company is continuing its exploration work (there is reference to an airborne magnetic survey early next year), so we're still some time away from a planning application (I'm assuming one would be required, even though it's outside the NP). Once the application is lodged, it will be time to start making objections and hopefully MCofS will be on the case. Coire Daimh is a stunning place and a great winter climbing location, so it would be a real pity to have it damaged. I'd rather they got the ok for the Cononish development, not just because the winter climbing is much more limited but also because it's not a particularly striking place.
And on a lighter note... The company's press release in relation to Ben Udlaidh mentions "River Orchy near where coarse gold has been panned previously". Next time you rock up at Ben Udlaidh and it's not in condition, you know what to do instead - pack that seive!
In reply to Misha: What is the MCoS position on this? Anyone know?
Yeah, the figures that the gold mining company mention are impressive, and the jobs that potentially would be created would be great for the area, but in reality how much of the money created would stay in the area. Surely its the company and its owners/shareholders that benefit?
I grew up on a farm in Upper Nithsdale. The land was farm pasture, moorland, streams and old stands of oak, hawthorn and hazel. And lots of coal underground. The old deep mines had all closed down but for the past 20 years an opencast mine has been systematically removing all the coal from both sides of the valley. At the moment the farm I grew up on and all the land about is being torn up. Where there was moorland is now a 600' pile of spoil and a massive tear in the ground, a huge fleet of trucks and machines working 24/7. It is not pretty.
Yes, the other parts of Upper Nithsdale already mined have been landscaped, but the new version is like a pisstake of what was there before. The soggy moorland is gone (and all of the birds like the Curlews and Lapwings too), replaced with well drained farmland. Improved or sanitised? The random stands of tree gone. The landscape cannot be replaced. Its become something completely different.
Mining at Beinn Udlaidh would not be a good thing. Not just because of the loss of the winter climbing, but because of the devastation to the area. Its wild land and should remain so.
There was a huge outpouring of outrage at the proposal to build massive powerlines through the Cairngorms, and that project could at least be argued had some benefit to the population at large. But a gold mine will benefit relatively few of us, and do immense damage to a lovely bit of Scotland.
Time to get the climbing community mobilised to oppose this I reckon.
Yeah, the figures that the gold mining company mention are impressive, and the jobs that potentially would be created would be great for the area, but in reality how much of the money created would stay in the area. Surely its the company and its owners/shareholders that benefit?
I grew up on a farm in Upper Nithsdale. The land was farm pasture, moorland, streams and old stands of oak, hawthorn and hazel. And lots of coal underground. The old deep mines had all closed down but for the past 20 years an opencast mine has been systematically removing all the coal from both sides of the valley. At the moment the farm I grew up on and all the land about is being torn up. Where there was moorland is now a 600' pile of spoil and a massive tear in the ground, a huge fleet of trucks and machines working 24/7. It is not pretty.
Yes, the other parts of Upper Nithsdale already mined have been landscaped, but the new version is like a pisstake of what was there before. The soggy moorland is gone (and all of the birds like the Curlews and Lapwings too), replaced with well drained farmland. Improved or sanitised? The random stands of tree gone. The landscape cannot be replaced. Its become something completely different.
Mining at Beinn Udlaidh would not be a good thing. Not just because of the loss of the winter climbing, but because of the devastation to the area. Its wild land and should remain so.
There was a huge outpouring of outrage at the proposal to build massive powerlines through the Cairngorms, and that project could at least be argued had some benefit to the population at large. But a gold mine will benefit relatively few of us, and do immense damage to a lovely bit of Scotland.
Time to get the climbing community mobilised to oppose this I reckon.
In reply to jacobfinn:
There was no such proposal - the power line would simply have passed through a corner of the 'Cairngorm National Park', not the Cairngorms themselves.
Regarding gold mining at Udlaidh - surely what matters is how extensive any opencast mining and spoil heaps are, what's done to tidy up, whether it poisons the River Orchy, and whether it affects access to Coire Daimh?
The scenery there is very pleasant but not exceptional, and it's hardly a wilderness, so I can't see why there'd be much wrong with a smallish, well-run mine, providing it didn't stop access. Mining has long been important in this area. A huge quarry ripping up a large part of the hillside would be a different matter.
It seems a bit early to be panicking - it seems more of a 'watch this space' sort of thing.
I'm not sure why this needs 2 threads, either! Maybe I should have posted this on the original one.
> There was a huge outpouring of outrage at the proposal to build massive powerlines through the Cairngorms
There was no such proposal - the power line would simply have passed through a corner of the 'Cairngorm National Park', not the Cairngorms themselves.
Regarding gold mining at Udlaidh - surely what matters is how extensive any opencast mining and spoil heaps are, what's done to tidy up, whether it poisons the River Orchy, and whether it affects access to Coire Daimh?
The scenery there is very pleasant but not exceptional, and it's hardly a wilderness, so I can't see why there'd be much wrong with a smallish, well-run mine, providing it didn't stop access. Mining has long been important in this area. A huge quarry ripping up a large part of the hillside would be a different matter.
It seems a bit early to be panicking - it seems more of a 'watch this space' sort of thing.
I'm not sure why this needs 2 threads, either! Maybe I should have posted this on the original one.
In reply to skog:
By proposal, I meant the public consultation exercise that attracted huge oposition. Or did I miss something. Bit confused with what you mean. By Cairngorms, I was meaning the national park.
It matters if access is restricted to the climbing area.
Any industrialiation of the area will affect the landscape. 72000 tonnes of spoil is a lot of material to stored and then landscaped.
Better to have 2 threads on Beinn Udlaidh than a 100 on who has the biggest cock, speaks the most languages or guess my job crap that has been filling UKC of late.
> (In reply to jacobfinn)
> [...]
>
> There was no such proposal - the power line would simply have passed through a corner of the 'Cairngorm National Park', not the Cairngorms themselves.
> [...]
>
> There was no such proposal - the power line would simply have passed through a corner of the 'Cairngorm National Park', not the Cairngorms themselves.
By proposal, I meant the public consultation exercise that attracted huge oposition. Or did I miss something. Bit confused with what you mean. By Cairngorms, I was meaning the national park.
>
> Regarding gold mining at Udlaidh - surely what matters is how extensive any opencast mining and spoil heaps are, what's done to tidy up, whether it poisons the River Orchy, and whether it affects access to Coire Daimh?
> Regarding gold mining at Udlaidh - surely what matters is how extensive any opencast mining and spoil heaps are, what's done to tidy up, whether it poisons the River Orchy, and whether it affects access to Coire Daimh?
It matters if access is restricted to the climbing area.
>
> The scenery there is very pleasant but not exceptional, and it's hardly a wilderness, so I can't see why there'd be much wrong with a smallish, well-run mine, providing it didn't stop access. Mining has long been important in this area. A huge quarry ripping up a large part of the hillside would be a different matter.
> The scenery there is very pleasant but not exceptional, and it's hardly a wilderness, so I can't see why there'd be much wrong with a smallish, well-run mine, providing it didn't stop access. Mining has long been important in this area. A huge quarry ripping up a large part of the hillside would be a different matter.
Any industrialiation of the area will affect the landscape. 72000 tonnes of spoil is a lot of material to stored and then landscaped.
>
> It seems a bit early to be panicking - it seems more of a 'watch this space' sort of thing.
>
> I'm not sure why this needs 2 threads, either! Maybe I should have posted this on the original one.
> It seems a bit early to be panicking - it seems more of a 'watch this space' sort of thing.
>
> I'm not sure why this needs 2 threads, either! Maybe I should have posted this on the original one.
Better to have 2 threads on Beinn Udlaidh than a 100 on who has the biggest cock, speaks the most languages or guess my job crap that has been filling UKC of late.
In reply to jacobfinn:
OK, but they're not the same thing; I think a lot of the objection to the power line was from people who imagined it going through the Cairngorms, which is not the plan at all.
Yes, I said that. Coire Daimh is the main climbing area on Beinn Udlaidh.
Yes, it will. The question is to what extent, and whether it's worth it. Unless you don't use metals, you have to accept that quite a lot of mining in the countryside is required. There are some places where it simply shouldn't happen; I do not believe that Glen Orchy is one of those, and it should come down to damage done vs benefits.
Yeah, probably.
> By Cairngorms, I was meaning the national park.
OK, but they're not the same thing; I think a lot of the objection to the power line was from people who imagined it going through the Cairngorms, which is not the plan at all.
> It matters if access is restricted to the climbing area.
Yes, I said that. Coire Daimh is the main climbing area on Beinn Udlaidh.
> Any industrialiation of the area will affect the landscape. 72000 tonnes of spoil is a lot of material to stored and then landscaped.
Yes, it will. The question is to what extent, and whether it's worth it. Unless you don't use metals, you have to accept that quite a lot of mining in the countryside is required. There are some places where it simply shouldn't happen; I do not believe that Glen Orchy is one of those, and it should come down to damage done vs benefits.
> Better to have 2 threads on Beinn Udlaidh than a 100 on who has the biggest cock, speaks the most languages or guess my job crap that has been filling UKC of late.
Yeah, probably.
In reply to skog: I guess then that the benefits issue will be key. If this was a community led business, with the money staying in the area, then I would be more in favour of it. But that's not the case as its a private company.
You also have to question the number of jobs being created. Are there 50 odd locals with the skills and experience in Glen Orchy to work in a gold mine? Or will people commute from outwith the area? If that's the case, then the argument of creating local jobs doesn't hold much weight.
Yes, I know that Coire Daimh is the main climbing area. Maybe access won't change, but the character of the place will if there is a huge spoil heap near to the cliffs. Even 1000 tonnes would be a large blot - too big to hide.
You also have to question the number of jobs being created. Are there 50 odd locals with the skills and experience in Glen Orchy to work in a gold mine? Or will people commute from outwith the area? If that's the case, then the argument of creating local jobs doesn't hold much weight.
Yes, I know that Coire Daimh is the main climbing area. Maybe access won't change, but the character of the place will if there is a huge spoil heap near to the cliffs. Even 1000 tonnes would be a large blot - too big to hide.
In reply to jacobfinn:
Sorry, I'm being unnecessarily grumpy this morning!
Here, this is off-topic for a thread on mining at Udlaidh, but the part of the proposed power line route clipping the national park can be seen here:
http://www.scottish-southern.co.uk/SSEInternet/index.aspx?rightColHeader=36...
The relevant sections are Corrieyairack - Kinloch Laggan, Kinloch Laggan - Drumochter and Drumochter - Tummel Bridge, I think:
http://www.sse.com/SSEInternet/WorkArea/showcontent.aspx?id=2230&LangTy...
http://www.sse.com/SSEInternet/WorkArea/showcontent.aspx?id=2214&LangTy...
http://www.sse.com/SSEInternet/WorkArea/showcontent.aspx?id=2208&LangTy...
The National Park map is here:
http://www.cairngorms.co.uk/thepark/maps/map_large.php
The power line route just clips the edge of the park area, and isn't really even near the Cairngorms. Anti power-line campaingners played the 'national park' card a lot, and I feel this confused the debate.
Sorry, I'm being unnecessarily grumpy this morning!
Here, this is off-topic for a thread on mining at Udlaidh, but the part of the proposed power line route clipping the national park can be seen here:
http://www.scottish-southern.co.uk/SSEInternet/index.aspx?rightColHeader=36...
The relevant sections are Corrieyairack - Kinloch Laggan, Kinloch Laggan - Drumochter and Drumochter - Tummel Bridge, I think:
http://www.sse.com/SSEInternet/WorkArea/showcontent.aspx?id=2230&LangTy...
http://www.sse.com/SSEInternet/WorkArea/showcontent.aspx?id=2214&LangTy...
http://www.sse.com/SSEInternet/WorkArea/showcontent.aspx?id=2208&LangTy...
The National Park map is here:
http://www.cairngorms.co.uk/thepark/maps/map_large.php
The power line route just clips the edge of the park area, and isn't really even near the Cairngorms. Anti power-line campaingners played the 'national park' card a lot, and I feel this confused the debate.
In reply to jacobfinn: with you 100%, climbers and walkers need to get their fingers out and not leave it to others to fight their corner.
in reply to skog, 2 threads are obviously better than 1 as you can see by the quality of replys on this one.
in reply to skog, 2 threads are obviously better than 1 as you can see by the quality of replys on this one.
In reply to jacobfinn:
I think we more or less agree - I was mostly just trying to point out to the OP that it didn't seem like we needed to panic just yet.
I think the main reason people climb at Udlaidh is convenience, though. A working mine under it would change the ambience, certainly, but probably wouldn't ruin the place as long as reasonable access is preserved.
I think we more or less agree - I was mostly just trying to point out to the OP that it didn't seem like we needed to panic just yet.
I think the main reason people climb at Udlaidh is convenience, though. A working mine under it would change the ambience, certainly, but probably wouldn't ruin the place as long as reasonable access is preserved.
In reply to skog: Its understandable. Reading all about the guess my job thread would make anyone pissed off.
The powerlines issue was an emotive one. Both sides over-played their own stance - benefits vs damage. I'm sure that the mining company in Glen Orchy will be playing the benefits card to max effect.
For what its worth, when the pits in Nithsdale shut down in early 80s, the area went from full-employment to horrendous levels of unemployment. Then the open cast started, but most of the labour was brought in from outside the area. Most of the former miners didn't have the necessary skills to work in the opencast, so unemployment remained high. Maybe Glen Orchy is hot spot for unemployed goldminers, but I don't think so.
The powerlines issue was an emotive one. Both sides over-played their own stance - benefits vs damage. I'm sure that the mining company in Glen Orchy will be playing the benefits card to max effect.
For what its worth, when the pits in Nithsdale shut down in early 80s, the area went from full-employment to horrendous levels of unemployment. Then the open cast started, but most of the labour was brought in from outside the area. Most of the former miners didn't have the necessary skills to work in the opencast, so unemployment remained high. Maybe Glen Orchy is hot spot for unemployed goldminers, but I don't think so.
In reply to skog: there was no panic just irritation about the lack of meaningful response on the 1st post
In reply to skog: the surrounding area of udlaidh has been decimated by commercial forestry, I first started going there when they where in the process of planting the trees, as usual climbers seem to pay little attention to why the cliff is accessible via a nice track.
I am for the development, I have also approached the cliff from the Oban road up the other side and its a very easy walk-in so access really isnt an issue
I am for the development, I have also approached the cliff from the Oban road up the other side and its a very easy walk-in so access really isnt an issue
In reply to jacobfinn:
Coming to Glen Orchy in 2025: The mining story
"Visit the mining pits where gold and other precious metals were dug out of the land, then relax with a cup of coffee in our Coire Daimh restaurant, overlooking the scenic Loch Orchy, created in 2023 when the mining spoils were used to dam the river to provide this popular watersports venue.
Our restaurant is also popular with the ice-craggers in the winter, who enjoy the most extensive, most accessible ice climbing in Scotland, just 5 minutes walk from our car park. Ask at the bar regarding beginner and improver courses!"
> For what its worth, when the pits in Nithsdale shut down in early 80s, the area went from full-employment to horrendous levels of unemployment.
Coming to Glen Orchy in 2025: The mining story
"Visit the mining pits where gold and other precious metals were dug out of the land, then relax with a cup of coffee in our Coire Daimh restaurant, overlooking the scenic Loch Orchy, created in 2023 when the mining spoils were used to dam the river to provide this popular watersports venue.
Our restaurant is also popular with the ice-craggers in the winter, who enjoy the most extensive, most accessible ice climbing in Scotland, just 5 minutes walk from our car park. Ask at the bar regarding beginner and improver courses!"
In reply to skog: Now that sounds good. Except, it'll more likely be like the Cairngorms mountain railway where you can get access to the restaurant but not out on the hill. Unless you pay. All climbers will of course be free to walk over the spoil heaps, past the fetid pools and negotiate the miles of high wire fences (no stiles of course).
In reply to Erik B:
very good point and the same is true for the car park at coire cas, however just because its conventent doesnt mean its appropriate
> as usual climbers seem to pay little attention to why the cliff is accessible via a nice track.
>
>
>
>
very good point and the same is true for the car park at coire cas, however just because its conventent doesnt mean its appropriate
In reply to melville18:
There's nothing to get concerned about yet.
The refusal of permission for Cononich is probably going to be appealled, of that one goes ahead then this one is unlikely to, at least for a while, as the infrastructure isn't there.
Prospecting on Udlaidh is also at a relatively early stage, and findings have not yet been reported in detail, let alone any proposals made as to exactly where any working would be and what form access etc would take.
And from what was said in reply to my earlier thread, it sounds like the likeliest areas are probably not going to affect the climbing anyway.
So the response is probably going to depend on your response to developments in the mountains in general. If you haven't objected to ski and related developments at Cairngorm, Aonach Mor, and Glencoe, then there seems at the moment that there's little to object to here. And conversely, if you don't like those developments, then you won't like this one either.
There's nothing to get concerned about yet.
The refusal of permission for Cononich is probably going to be appealled, of that one goes ahead then this one is unlikely to, at least for a while, as the infrastructure isn't there.
Prospecting on Udlaidh is also at a relatively early stage, and findings have not yet been reported in detail, let alone any proposals made as to exactly where any working would be and what form access etc would take.
And from what was said in reply to my earlier thread, it sounds like the likeliest areas are probably not going to affect the climbing anyway.
So the response is probably going to depend on your response to developments in the mountains in general. If you haven't objected to ski and related developments at Cairngorm, Aonach Mor, and Glencoe, then there seems at the moment that there's little to object to here. And conversely, if you don't like those developments, then you won't like this one either.
In reply to jacobfinn:
I should think so...
You presented a powerful personal perspective there. Worth noting that the Cononish mine was going to be underground (too early to tell for Ben Udlaidh of course), but there's still the issue of the spoil heap and the processing plant (that at least would hopefully be removed afterwards), which it seems was one of the major problems that the NP authority had with the planning application.
> Yeah, the figures that the gold mining company mention are impressive, and the jobs that potentially would be created would be great for the area, but in reality how much of the money created would stay in the area. Surely its the company and its owners/shareholders that benefit?
I should think so...
You presented a powerful personal perspective there. Worth noting that the Cononish mine was going to be underground (too early to tell for Ben Udlaidh of course), but there's still the issue of the spoil heap and the processing plant (that at least would hopefully be removed afterwards), which it seems was one of the major problems that the NP authority had with the planning application.
In reply to skog:
Coire Daimh in full winter nick is fantastic! Of course winter is when you'd least notice the remnants of any mining due to the snow cover.
I agree though, it's early days and we'll have to see what the exact proposals are. They might even decide not to bother if the results from the further surveys aren't that good. I suspect the next significant decision will be regarding the Cononish appeal (would have thought the company would appeal, what have they got to lose apart from some more time and money?).
> The scenery there is very pleasant but not exceptional, and it's hardly a wilderness
Coire Daimh in full winter nick is fantastic! Of course winter is when you'd least notice the remnants of any mining due to the snow cover.
I agree though, it's early days and we'll have to see what the exact proposals are. They might even decide not to bother if the results from the further surveys aren't that good. I suspect the next significant decision will be regarding the Cononish appeal (would have thought the company would appeal, what have they got to lose apart from some more time and money?).
In reply to Erik B:
Commercial forestry doesn't look natural and I don't know whether it's of any benefit for the wildlife as the trees always seem to be very dense, but at the end of the day a commercial forest is not unpleasant and certainly doesn't really have the same visual impact as a mine!
Commercial forestry doesn't look natural and I don't know whether it's of any benefit for the wildlife as the trees always seem to be very dense, but at the end of the day a commercial forest is not unpleasant and certainly doesn't really have the same visual impact as a mine!
In reply to skog:
Excellent!
Only thing is, are you sure there will still be any ice climbing there in 15 years' time? Though who knows, climate change seems to work in mysterious ways...
> Coming to Glen Orchy in 2025: The mining story
Excellent!
Only thing is, are you sure there will still be any ice climbing there in 15 years' time? Though who knows, climate change seems to work in mysterious ways...
In reply to melville18:
I work as an exploration geologist in the gold mining sector.
the numbers are not that good for udlaidh since the two holes that did intersect (1m and 3m showings) are limited by the geology and those that didn't BUAQ 102 and 103. So its not a question of grade but one of space, if their map is right they dont have any space unless the vein is nice a regular and "undergraduaty" which the topography suggests is not the case.
chip lines and channel samples (if they have them) mean NOTHING and are only ever used to raise investment or convince yourself that your geologist isn't an idiot.
you need a average grade of roughly 1 g/t over 3+m ** (min mining space) which there results don't currently support. the results do show interesting nuggets near surface which would explain the abundance of placer deposits and good float samples. the arsenic level is getting there complicating factors.
scotgold basically say this in there statement
"Scotgold plans to follow up the high grade intersections with further drilling but will wait upon the results of an airborne magnetic survey to be carried out, which the Company expects to be early next year."
meaning "we don't know whats going on and we need a cheap way of telling us if its worth spending loads drilling or if we should just kill the project now"
and breathe
** large mines in Aus, Africa and Can can produce down to 0.6g/t but only at high volumes and with good infrastructure.
I work as an exploration geologist in the gold mining sector.
the numbers are not that good for udlaidh since the two holes that did intersect (1m and 3m showings) are limited by the geology and those that didn't BUAQ 102 and 103. So its not a question of grade but one of space, if their map is right they dont have any space unless the vein is nice a regular and "undergraduaty" which the topography suggests is not the case.
chip lines and channel samples (if they have them) mean NOTHING and are only ever used to raise investment or convince yourself that your geologist isn't an idiot.
you need a average grade of roughly 1 g/t over 3+m ** (min mining space) which there results don't currently support. the results do show interesting nuggets near surface which would explain the abundance of placer deposits and good float samples. the arsenic level is getting there complicating factors.
scotgold basically say this in there statement
"Scotgold plans to follow up the high grade intersections with further drilling but will wait upon the results of an airborne magnetic survey to be carried out, which the Company expects to be early next year."
meaning "we don't know whats going on and we need a cheap way of telling us if its worth spending loads drilling or if we should just kill the project now"
and breathe
** large mines in Aus, Africa and Can can produce down to 0.6g/t but only at high volumes and with good infrastructure.
In reply to seaofdreams:
Thank you for this post. Can't claim to have understood the detail but get the gist of it.
Thank you for this post. Can't claim to have understood the detail but get the gist of it.
In reply to seaofdreams:
Love the bullshit breakdown there!
Personally I agree with Erik B, the area is not outstanding and surely to feck climbers can relax and avoid any potential works with a short diversion? Beinn Udlaidh has to be the most accessible Winter crag (not roadside icefall) in Britain.
By your reckoning there it sounds like there's little to worry about anyway.
Love the bullshit breakdown there!
Personally I agree with Erik B, the area is not outstanding and surely to feck climbers can relax and avoid any potential works with a short diversion? Beinn Udlaidh has to be the most accessible Winter crag (not roadside icefall) in Britain.
By your reckoning there it sounds like there's little to worry about anyway.
In reply to melville18: This thread seems unusually balanced! Maybe the other one was ignored as it was trying to whip up mass hysteria.
I'm not against this proposal. I'd imagine it would be unlikely to restrict the climbing opportunities or destroy the area. However,I'm not suggesting that I would be happy with the entire hillside being ripped open, North Wales slate style. I think we really just need to wait and see what the detail is before getting too worked up.
Mind you, Seaofdreams' post suggests that there appears to be plenty of uncertainty about the profitability, so the investors may not want to risk it anyway.
I'm not against this proposal. I'd imagine it would be unlikely to restrict the climbing opportunities or destroy the area. However,I'm not suggesting that I would be happy with the entire hillside being ripped open, North Wales slate style. I think we really just need to wait and see what the detail is before getting too worked up.
Mind you, Seaofdreams' post suggests that there appears to be plenty of uncertainty about the profitability, so the investors may not want to risk it anyway.
In reply to melville18:
Meanwhile I'm in Azerbaijan as an engineering geologist watching hillsides and valleys be ripped apart just to provide design data for the infrastructure; tailings lagoons, water dams etc etc.
What it looks like when (if) they start mining, will be immense...
Meanwhile I'm in Azerbaijan as an engineering geologist watching hillsides and valleys be ripped apart just to provide design data for the infrastructure; tailings lagoons, water dams etc etc.
What it looks like when (if) they start mining, will be immense...
In reply to zzz:
I started the other one, and it was merely asking if anyone knew the specific areas that were being looked at.
This thread, however, was started with the stated intention of getting angry!
> Maybe the other one was ignored as it was trying to whip up mass hysteria.
I started the other one, and it was merely asking if anyone knew the specific areas that were being looked at.
This thread, however, was started with the stated intention of getting angry!
In reply to Toreador: Fair enough - I missed the other thread and assumed it had been started by the same person.
Glad there's some info and debate here. Usually these threads descend into people having a knee-jerk reaction against any kind of change or development anywhere near the hills. Might have been avoided here as Bruce Hooker hasn't turned up yet!
Glad there's some info and debate here. Usually these threads descend into people having a knee-jerk reaction against any kind of change or development anywhere near the hills. Might have been avoided here as Bruce Hooker hasn't turned up yet!
In reply to skog:
A Recent visit (last winter )shows the existing mine and some ice climbing .
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22776031@N05/sets/72157623184796558/
A Recent visit (last winter )shows the existing mine and some ice climbing .
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22776031@N05/sets/72157623184796558/
In reply to melville18:
As I assume you opening remark was a comment about my post, it is nice to see that you are such an expert on off the cuff cheap remarks.
I realise that being able to make a reasoned comment on the economics of a mining operation isn't exciting and won't win you an award for Daily Mail headline writing but it is vastly more useful.
As I assume you opening remark was a comment about my post, it is nice to see that you are such an expert on off the cuff cheap remarks.
I realise that being able to make a reasoned comment on the economics of a mining operation isn't exciting and won't win you an award for Daily Mail headline writing but it is vastly more useful.
In reply to zzz:
>that there appears to be plenty of uncertainty about the profitability, so the investors may not want to risk it anyway.
This is it really - I am not going to say that there will not be a mine all I am saying is that the current data isn't good enough and I am more than aware of the sales pitch spin placed on these announcements. Also bear in mind that my comments were aimed at the Udlaidh data only (my envelope here says 500 m x 20 m x 2-3 m @ 3-4 g/t = 5000 - 6000 oz total ish - IOW small money: large mess).
Combining this with other showings in the Orchy region could well provide the required tonnage at a good grade to support a mine and works depending on costs (they think 52 new jobs at an average of 35000 GBP pa to start with!). My personal feelings on this issue shall remain out of the topic and I should note that i know nothing about geostatistics (required for a good tonnage calc) so don't go buying shares on my mindless calculations.
Before they can mine they need a proven resource (lots of holes and a 3rd party calculation and better than "5000 - 6000 oz ish") because no one will fund them if they don't have this, they also need a feasibility study which involves all of the common complaints and points covered on this sort of thread plus impact on economy and availably of skills ect ect. bear in mind that a mine could be a great thing for the area.
My gut feeling is that this topic will reemerge in 2-3 years when scotgold have better data and more holes and I would expect them to drill next year to try a constrain the deposit and remove a lot of the "ifs and buts", then we can talk about the pros and cons on mining in the UK.
I wish them luck - Its hard work raising money
>that there appears to be plenty of uncertainty about the profitability, so the investors may not want to risk it anyway.
This is it really - I am not going to say that there will not be a mine all I am saying is that the current data isn't good enough and I am more than aware of the sales pitch spin placed on these announcements. Also bear in mind that my comments were aimed at the Udlaidh data only (my envelope here says 500 m x 20 m x 2-3 m @ 3-4 g/t = 5000 - 6000 oz total ish - IOW small money: large mess).
Combining this with other showings in the Orchy region could well provide the required tonnage at a good grade to support a mine and works depending on costs (they think 52 new jobs at an average of 35000 GBP pa to start with!). My personal feelings on this issue shall remain out of the topic and I should note that i know nothing about geostatistics (required for a good tonnage calc) so don't go buying shares on my mindless calculations.
Before they can mine they need a proven resource (lots of holes and a 3rd party calculation and better than "5000 - 6000 oz ish") because no one will fund them if they don't have this, they also need a feasibility study which involves all of the common complaints and points covered on this sort of thread plus impact on economy and availably of skills ect ect. bear in mind that a mine could be a great thing for the area.
My gut feeling is that this topic will reemerge in 2-3 years when scotgold have better data and more holes and I would expect them to drill next year to try a constrain the deposit and remove a lot of the "ifs and buts", then we can talk about the pros and cons on mining in the UK.
I wish them luck - Its hard work raising money
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