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Off on my first sports climbing hol in 6 years and on looking through the guidebook im a bit concerned that some of the routes I wouldnt mind having a crack at are over 25m which does make things a bit tricky with my 50m single rope for coming back down.
As I do have two half ropes I was thinking of climbing on the single and trailing the half and then just threading the top lower off like a retrievable ab joining the half and the single and then just abseiling off.
Whilst im sure this isnt common sport climbing practice, am I missing a really easy way to do this? Will the overhand or double overhand be fine to use with two mismatched ropes (mammut supersafe 10.2 and beal cobra 8.6). For the record I am really happy with using overhand/double for ab when I normally climb with my 2 matched halves.
Purchasing another longer single line isnt really an option.
Im pretty certain I can make my own mind up on all of this, but I was just wondering if anyone had used this method before or used a better technique for the task.
Thanks!
As I do have two half ropes I was thinking of climbing on the single and trailing the half and then just threading the top lower off like a retrievable ab joining the half and the single and then just abseiling off.
Whilst im sure this isnt common sport climbing practice, am I missing a really easy way to do this? Will the overhand or double overhand be fine to use with two mismatched ropes (mammut supersafe 10.2 and beal cobra 8.6). For the record I am really happy with using overhand/double for ab when I normally climb with my 2 matched halves.
Purchasing another longer single line isnt really an option.
Im pretty certain I can make my own mind up on all of this, but I was just wondering if anyone had used this method before or used a better technique for the task.
Thanks!
In reply to boywonder:
>
Could you borrow one from a friend?
>
> Purchasing another longer single line isnt really an option.
>
>
Could you borrow one from a friend?
In reply to Blue Straggler: Well that could be an option but, to be honest Im not sure I know anyone with a 60m rope!
In reply to boywonder: How long are your half ropes? If they're 60m, you can use them but it may be an embuggerance. Clip the bolts alternately. 1st on blue, 2nd red, 3rd blue...
In reply to boywonder: fairly common practice to climb on the pair of halfs then tie together for abb. DONT drop one when threading though. Or, if you want a gamble, test the stretch of your 50. It 'should stretch enough.
The knott in question works fine on odd ropes
The knott in question works fine on odd ropes
In reply to tonanf: I'm not sure a rope would stretch 20% under bodyweight static load. Some ropes stretch up to 30% or more, but only under a high factor fall (factor 1 or more), and while very new.
In reply to stewieatb: Should have mentioned, but my halves are 50m too. Im pleased for some backup on the joining of the half and single line. Im pretty sure we must have done this during my last sport climbing trip because im pretty sure we used a thin single and a half when we did some multipitch.
thanks everyone for your help!
thanks everyone for your help!
In reply to boywonder: The other option, the one that I'd use in occasional situations (and have done on 35metre+ routes in the past) would just be to lower in two stages with your single.
Worst case, you need two 'leaver biners' per route to avoid lowering on a single bolt so it's not a good option for regular use but it completely eliminates the need to take two ropes on holiday.
The final thing to bear in mind is that on most popular crags you'll find someone else will be climbing the same routes at some point in the day so if you ask nicely they'll retrieve your gear if you lower in two stages and leave two draws in place.
Worst case, you need two 'leaver biners' per route to avoid lowering on a single bolt so it's not a good option for regular use but it completely eliminates the need to take two ropes on holiday.
The final thing to bear in mind is that on most popular crags you'll find someone else will be climbing the same routes at some point in the day so if you ask nicely they'll retrieve your gear if you lower in two stages and leave two draws in place.
In reply to boywonder: could you not climb using your double ropes, clip them both in each clip, or alternate (it doesnt matter which but which ever you start doing make sure you do for the whole route). then when you get to the top use a draw to clip you to the top, then as you can pull one of the double ropes up and tie a overhand in and ab down as if its an ab? overhand isnt an issue as the ropes are same diameter?
this just means you have to carry a ab device up with you.
cheers chris
this just means you have to carry a ab device up with you.
cheers chris
In reply to chrisbaggy: You could alternate, but definitely DON'T clip both to each draw, like they were twin ropes. Because twins are designed to be used together, always splitting the load equally, they are very stretchy, and together are similar in stretch and impact force to a single rope. However half ropes have a similar IF to a single on each rope. Using them as twin ropes will result in very little stretch in the ropes and a very high impact force, possibly causing internal injuries.
In reply to stewieatb: You are wrong, what happens if you clip two runners, one to each half rope, at the same height?
Exactly the same effect.
Clipping two halfs to the same krab might crossload the krab slightly, although I have not heard of an incident of the krab breaking because of this.
Exactly the same effect.
Clipping two halfs to the same krab might crossload the krab slightly, although I have not heard of an incident of the krab breaking because of this.
In reply to boywonder: Stop messing about and just buy a longer rope. I would always suggest a 70m. It would save hassle and any worries.
In reply to boywonder:
We have used several methods to overcome this issue mainly when the route is longer than in the guide book and we have no other option.......
Lower off as normal and with rope stretch you will get quite close, then down climb the last bit, plus your belayer climbs up a little.
OR
At the top thread the rope through the lower offs then extend the rope with a few slings. So you attach your self to a sling, then to another sling then to the rope. Down climb the first bit.
Which method we use (may use both) depends on several factors, such what the base of the climb is like, what the top is like, weight of the climber etc
Obviously there is a knot in the bottom of the rope, locking krabs are used to join the slings, the correct knots are used.
We have used several methods to overcome this issue mainly when the route is longer than in the guide book and we have no other option.......
Lower off as normal and with rope stretch you will get quite close, then down climb the last bit, plus your belayer climbs up a little.
OR
At the top thread the rope through the lower offs then extend the rope with a few slings. So you attach your self to a sling, then to another sling then to the rope. Down climb the first bit.
Which method we use (may use both) depends on several factors, such what the base of the climb is like, what the top is like, weight of the climber etc
Obviously there is a knot in the bottom of the rope, locking krabs are used to join the slings, the correct knots are used.
In reply to Gary Gibson: Agreed, bought a mammut 70m and packed it as per instructions in rope bag - I've had less knotting problems with this rope than any other ropes I have. So many were jealous of my none twisted rope whilst climbing in Tonsai as I was climbing my second route and they set about untangling theirs!
In reply to boywonder:
I'd recheck your finances and maybe shift priorities. In the longer run you will not loose out financially as you will have a ropes for different circumstances, so each rope will last a bit longer, as long as you look after them. Messing about with a 50m will be a hassle and effect how much you get done, and also increases the chances of a f*ck up (no-ones infallible).
>
> Purchasing another longer single line isnt really an option.
>
> Purchasing another longer single line isnt really an option.
>
I'd recheck your finances and maybe shift priorities. In the longer run you will not loose out financially as you will have a ropes for different circumstances, so each rope will last a bit longer, as long as you look after them. Messing about with a 50m will be a hassle and effect how much you get done, and also increases the chances of a f*ck up (no-ones infallible).
In reply to stewieatb: Thanks for the advice on the alternate clipping, but that wasnt really the discussion I wanted to start as I know it has been done to death on here. My thoughts echo someone elses on this thread in regards to clipping two runners at the same height.
Im pretty interested to see any evidence on internal injuries from using half ropes, because I must have been lucky as half ropes sound dangerous to me.....
Mammut recomend that half ropes can be used as twins but not the other way around and the impact force of my beal cobras are 5.1 as opposed to my mammut supersafe which is 8.8 So im guessing that shows that half ropes do not have the same impact force as singles, hence the reason they are very stretchy as you say.
Im willing to learn, so if im way off the mark then UKC users let me know.
Im pretty interested to see any evidence on internal injuries from using half ropes, because I must have been lucky as half ropes sound dangerous to me.....
Mammut recomend that half ropes can be used as twins but not the other way around and the impact force of my beal cobras are 5.1 as opposed to my mammut supersafe which is 8.8 So im guessing that shows that half ropes do not have the same impact force as singles, hence the reason they are very stretchy as you say.
Im willing to learn, so if im way off the mark then UKC users let me know.
In reply to boywonder:
At e.g kalymnos I did a few35m metre routes with a 60m - stretch and optimistic guidebook lengths meant it was OK. Always put a knot in and watch teh rope etc. but it was OK.
At e.g kalymnos I did a few35m metre routes with a 60m - stretch and optimistic guidebook lengths meant it was OK. Always put a knot in and watch teh rope etc. but it was OK.
In reply to Gary Gibson:
Yeah I think I will. I may well just go any buy a 70m rope which would solve all issues anyway! Thanks for the advice!
> (In reply to boywonder) Stop messing about and just buy a longer rope. I would always suggest a 70m. It would save hassle and any worries.
Yeah I think I will. I may well just go any buy a 70m rope which would solve all issues anyway! Thanks for the advice!
In reply to stewieatb:
No disrespect but if you had actually tried using double ropes as a single you would have found it makes remarkably little difference. Yes, each half-rope can take falls by itself but in most cases they will do so by stretching more than a typical single rope would under the same load. Using 2 together will reduce this stretch but I have never known a fall on 2 half-ropes to feel any more abrupt than a fall on a relatively low-stretch dynamic single (they vary a lot in their ordinary stretch).
I've (accidentally) fallen 6m onto a semi-static single and the impact force wasn't particularly uncomfortable, and have fallen onto 2 dynamic half-ropes often without noticing any issue at all. Using them as twins makes rope management and particularly belaying far easier and I would choose this option every time for long multi-pitch sport.
Please people leave the unfounded scaremongering to the Daily Mail and its ilk
> Using them as twin ropes will result in very little stretch in the ropes and a very high impact force, possibly causing internal injuries.
No disrespect but if you had actually tried using double ropes as a single you would have found it makes remarkably little difference. Yes, each half-rope can take falls by itself but in most cases they will do so by stretching more than a typical single rope would under the same load. Using 2 together will reduce this stretch but I have never known a fall on 2 half-ropes to feel any more abrupt than a fall on a relatively low-stretch dynamic single (they vary a lot in their ordinary stretch).
I've (accidentally) fallen 6m onto a semi-static single and the impact force wasn't particularly uncomfortable, and have fallen onto 2 dynamic half-ropes often without noticing any issue at all. Using them as twins makes rope management and particularly belaying far easier and I would choose this option every time for long multi-pitch sport.
Please people leave the unfounded scaremongering to the Daily Mail and its ilk
In reply to john arran:
There have been a number of threads about this use of rope in the past and I believe the facts do not weigh out the theory that it is dangerous. As far as I can see there is nothing wrong with using halves as twins.
There have been a number of threads about this use of rope in the past and I believe the facts do not weigh out the theory that it is dangerous. As far as I can see there is nothing wrong with using halves as twins.
In reply to stewieatb:
On paper maybe. In practice, with your eyes closed you'd be hard pushed to tell the difference between the different rope systems in most falls.
OP: Depends where you're going and what the routes are like but you may reach the floor on a 50 from steeper pitches or swing in to easy ground... all a bit uncertain and awkward though. Your plan to ab off will work fine, it just means lugging an extra rope around and you may find it very hard to strip steep pitches.
jk
> However half ropes have a similar IF to a single on each rope. Using them as twin ropes will result in very little stretch in the ropes and a very high impact force, possibly causing internal injuries.
On paper maybe. In practice, with your eyes closed you'd be hard pushed to tell the difference between the different rope systems in most falls.
OP: Depends where you're going and what the routes are like but you may reach the floor on a 50 from steeper pitches or swing in to easy ground... all a bit uncertain and awkward though. Your plan to ab off will work fine, it just means lugging an extra rope around and you may find it very hard to strip steep pitches.
jk
In reply to boywonder: Why not just buy 30m of 4 or 5 mm cord to use to retrieve your 50m single after abseiling using just the 50?
In reply to boywonder:
Not sure where it is you are going, but I'd agree with Gary and suggest you get a 70m. This has been a pre-requisite for so many of the best sports routes I've in recent years, particularly on Kalymnos. You do apparently get routes which require an 80m rope (I've not come across one yet) but I believe they usually have intermediate lower offs.
If you are on a really tight budget then I would suggest the accesscory cord solution. You can always reuse the cord for other uses - a lifetime of prussik loops for you and your mates ?
Not sure where it is you are going, but I'd agree with Gary and suggest you get a 70m. This has been a pre-requisite for so many of the best sports routes I've in recent years, particularly on Kalymnos. You do apparently get routes which require an 80m rope (I've not come across one yet) but I believe they usually have intermediate lower offs.
If you are on a really tight budget then I would suggest the accesscory cord solution. You can always reuse the cord for other uses - a lifetime of prussik loops for you and your mates ?
In reply to boywonder: As you've been climbing for 11-20 years, you will know that most sport climbing accidents occur during the lowering off part of the process.
You're toying with tying off bits of other ropes and using assorted knots and, frankly, pissing about with some pretty random solutions. You say that buying a single rope is not an option. This is ridiculous. By the end of the holiday you will have spent several hundred quid (flights, insurance, accommodation, beer and food) You are now proposing to negate all that with knotting together mismatched ropes and lowering off to your death or serius injury. Tonanf is wrong, as this sort of nonsense is not "fairly common".
Is you climbing partner happy to go through this rigmarole? Is there any chance that there will be a misunderstanding, mistake or miscommunication (YES)? Why is getting a proper sports rope not an option? How much is your life worth? How much is your partners life worth? I would not climb with you under these circumstances, and i suspect I would not be the only one. STOP MESSING ABOUT WITH FALSE ECONOMIES & GET A SPORTS ROPE!
You're toying with tying off bits of other ropes and using assorted knots and, frankly, pissing about with some pretty random solutions. You say that buying a single rope is not an option. This is ridiculous. By the end of the holiday you will have spent several hundred quid (flights, insurance, accommodation, beer and food) You are now proposing to negate all that with knotting together mismatched ropes and lowering off to your death or serius injury. Tonanf is wrong, as this sort of nonsense is not "fairly common".
Is you climbing partner happy to go through this rigmarole? Is there any chance that there will be a misunderstanding, mistake or miscommunication (YES)? Why is getting a proper sports rope not an option? How much is your life worth? How much is your partners life worth? I would not climb with you under these circumstances, and i suspect I would not be the only one. STOP MESSING ABOUT WITH FALSE ECONOMIES & GET A SPORTS ROPE!
In reply to boywonder:
On a slightly different tack, if you doubt that your rope is long enough to reach the ground, its always a good idea to have your belayer tie in or put a stopper in the end of the rope.
On a slightly different tack, if you doubt that your rope is long enough to reach the ground, its always a good idea to have your belayer tie in or put a stopper in the end of the rope.
In reply to Aiden Wright: Well that was a fairly frank reply. Yeah my experience has taught me (in my 11-20 years of climbing as you so expertly quote from my profile) that lowering off is potentially a dangerous part of the climbing. Nearly all of my experience is with trad so as Im new(ish) to seriously going for it with sport I thought id ask the wisdom of UKC.
Can I ask what the pissing about with other random solutions are? Bear in mind I only suggested one fairly simple solution and asked for some advice.
I do already have a single rope, purchased only a few months ago before I knew I would be going away and even though I wish now id went for a longer rope will find it difficult to get the additional £150(?) for a 70m line to take out for potentially a handful of routes. Im sorry if I cant simply spend this money at the for of a hat for you. That said I do understand the benefit now more than ever of having a dedicated 70m rope which I will aim to get before I get out.
cheers
Can I ask what the pissing about with other random solutions are? Bear in mind I only suggested one fairly simple solution and asked for some advice.
I do already have a single rope, purchased only a few months ago before I knew I would be going away and even though I wish now id went for a longer rope will find it difficult to get the additional £150(?) for a 70m line to take out for potentially a handful of routes. Im sorry if I cant simply spend this money at the for of a hat for you. That said I do understand the benefit now more than ever of having a dedicated 70m rope which I will aim to get before I get out.
cheers
In reply to boywonder:
Take a single 50 and a half 50. Lead on the single - leave the other rope on the ground. Get to the belay. If you haven't gone past the half way mark, (or if you've only gone a couple of metres past, no problems. If you have and the route isn't too steep (slightly overhanging is OK), pull your rope up through all the quickdraws, drop the end back down, then pull up the half rope and abseil device. Tie the ropes together however you feel safe with (this is trying to avoid the stupid arguments that haunt UKC on this subject). Abseil down removing your qds, swinging if necessary, or set it all up so you can top rope your partner by clipping the single in. When belaying, you'll obviously have to have two belay devices as there'll be a knot in the way. Or use an Italian hitch on the second bit. Or walk backwards if there's enough room. If it's too steep to do this, wish you'd bought a longer rope. On a recent trip to El Chorro, I was very glad of my 80m...
Take a single 50 and a half 50. Lead on the single - leave the other rope on the ground. Get to the belay. If you haven't gone past the half way mark, (or if you've only gone a couple of metres past, no problems. If you have and the route isn't too steep (slightly overhanging is OK), pull your rope up through all the quickdraws, drop the end back down, then pull up the half rope and abseil device. Tie the ropes together however you feel safe with (this is trying to avoid the stupid arguments that haunt UKC on this subject). Abseil down removing your qds, swinging if necessary, or set it all up so you can top rope your partner by clipping the single in. When belaying, you'll obviously have to have two belay devices as there'll be a knot in the way. Or use an Italian hitch on the second bit. Or walk backwards if there's enough room. If it's too steep to do this, wish you'd bought a longer rope. On a recent trip to El Chorro, I was very glad of my 80m...
Thanks to everyone who has replied to the topic and put the effort in to respond. I am now sorted with how I am going to do this, simple answer......
Buy a 70m rope!
chris
Buy a 70m rope!
chris
In reply to boywonder:
Looks like i'm too late, but here's my 2p.
Climb on the 50 normally. Take a mallion up with you. If the stretch gets you down fantastic (remember to knot the bottoms). If it doesn't - Cowstail onto the nearest bolt, place a mallion on the bolt, untie the rope, thread the mallion and continue ab.
Cons - at one point your cowstailed onto a single bolt
- you leave mallions on routes (however, this will be a bonus for the next climber)
The mallion is really just back up, i bet the stretch will get you down most instances
Looks like i'm too late, but here's my 2p.
Climb on the 50 normally. Take a mallion up with you. If the stretch gets you down fantastic (remember to knot the bottoms). If it doesn't - Cowstail onto the nearest bolt, place a mallion on the bolt, untie the rope, thread the mallion and continue ab.
Cons - at one point your cowstailed onto a single bolt
- you leave mallions on routes (however, this will be a bonus for the next climber)
The mallion is really just back up, i bet the stretch will get you down most instances
In reply to stewieatb: my ropes are rated for both Twin and Double use so your statement is null and void. the thing that classifys a single/double/twin is the method used to test each type of rope. single ropes are tested (singley) with 80kg mass to a fall factor of 1.77, double ropes are tested with a 55kg mass to the same fall factor and twin rope are tested together with a 80kg mass.
In reply to jimbo g:
/noted :p
I also failed to note that in addition to cowstailing on one bolt, you also have to ab off one bolt...needless to say, make sure its a shiny one (you shouldn't be too far off the floor at this point anyway)
/noted :p
I also failed to note that in addition to cowstailing on one bolt, you also have to ab off one bolt...needless to say, make sure its a shiny one (you shouldn't be too far off the floor at this point anyway)
In reply to JTM:
I personally don't like it when routes get much past 30m - rope drag just becomes too unpleasant even on a sport route + long extenders.
I personally don't like it when routes get much past 30m - rope drag just becomes too unpleasant even on a sport route + long extenders.
In reply to Max_01:
No, less than 30m is just bouldering... The longer the better! There are several single pitch routes where I live that are 50m with up to 20 bolts. Real climbing.
No, less than 30m is just bouldering... The longer the better! There are several single pitch routes where I live that are 50m with up to 20 bolts. Real climbing.
In reply to JTM:
>......up to 20 bolts. Real climbing.
errrr ? surely no bolts would be 'Real Climbing'
>......up to 20 bolts. Real climbing.
errrr ? surely no bolts would be 'Real Climbing'
In reply to GrahamD: If this was QI you'd have got the sirens.
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