UKC

A friend of mine wants to progress from 6b to 6c indoors.
When he tries 6c and can't make it (free) he gets convinced he needs more stamina and downgrades back to loads of 6b's to build stamina/strength.

I've suggested what he needs to do is exclusively 'attack' and work the 6c's until they free

What is opinion on the two theories?

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

Going via 6b+ would be a start.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

try some 7a s ?


depends can he do it after a rest - in which case stamina or not pull
on the holds (lack of power)

In reply to Cragrat Rich: work the 6cs, after a suitable warm up. i had a friend who insisted on climbing all the 6a's, then all the 6a+'s before moving onto the 6b's in the centre. result= he can't climb harder then 6b.

warm up through the grades, hit the 6cs.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

Depends - if the problem is a crux then your mate probably needs to a) boulder lots to build that basis of maximum moves and problem solving and b)attack a specific 6c

If the problem genuinely is a stamina one then lots of laps 6a's / 5c's would be a good solution.

Or possibly highballing some E5's over mats... : )

In reply to Cragrat Rich:
I would suggest that at that grade it's most likely technique more than strength that is holding him back.

So climbing 6bs and easier while concentrating heavily on good technique could be one way to address this. Try exercises like silent feet (climbing without making a sound when you place your feet) and sticky hands (using a hold in the position you initial grab it, no re-adjustment) to improve technique.

Doing loads of 6bs will help with stamina but not strength. Try some bouldering to build strength.

Finally, working a 6c is a good way to climb one. Over analyse everything, each clip, each move. Make sure it's not fear of falling that's holding him back. Climb fast and smooth to save stamina/strength for the crux.

so in conclusion, both theories have there merits.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:
Tell your "friend" to go to Kalymnos - worked for me!

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

Bouldering or Routes?

Andy F

In reply to Cragrat Rich: I used to think like your friend, but now I do both. Spent last night having a one off session of bouldering so I can power up for routes I want to do. I'm still trying to work out the difference between my arms having stamina, and my heart and lungs etc. having stamina. Sometimes it feels like if I do loads of cardio using my legs to get super fit and boulder like a demon I'm 90% there for all the routes I want to do.

In reply to Cragrat Rich: Its probably a combination of lack of technique, not enough stamina to get through the Crux, fear of falling or being out of his comfort zone and being self defeatist. when you tell yourself you can't do something (even though you probably can) you probably believe it.

Id say work on technique on a bouldering wall first and foremost. this will have the effect of improving said technique/footwork and improve his overall strength to pull through the cruxes.

it would be very hard to say which one of these is his down fall but the two I have said to work on are probably the ones that will help him succeed.

HTH

In reply to andy farnell:
Routes!

In reply to Cragrat Rich: Fear of falling will be a big one, if I could get over that better then I'm sure I could lead 6c onsight indoors instead of 6a+ as is the case now.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

I'm particularly interested in hearing from people who have progressed successfully through 6b and 6c and now consistantly climb above that level.

In reply to highrepute:
and sticky hands (using a hold in the position you initial grab it, no re-adjustment) to improve technique.


Wouldn't it be better technique to use the hold at it's best configuration?

In reply to Cragrat Rich: tell him to get the new Dave Macleod book .. it explains everything about where your going wrong where you think your going wrong its a good read.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

He doesn't have a falling issue btw.

We're trying to establish which is the better method of progress, climbing lots of 6b+ or getting stuck in at 6c irrespective of what the drawback is.
Not 'what the problem might be' Cheers

In reply to Cragrat Rich: If you don't know what the problem is then how do you solve it??

In reply to Cragrat Rich: errr....do both?

In reply to Cragrat Rich: boulder boulder boulder and boulder. Indoors this makes a huge difference, as routes are generally fairly short indoors with defined crux moves, or thats my experience anyway. If every move feels easy then you don't get pumped as fast. I bouldered almost exclusively for a few months then climbed much harder routes outdoors then i ever had before.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

The problem is He can't get up 6c's

My OP asks - which method of progress is best. Climbing lots of 6b's or getting on 6c's

Can we stick to that question instead of everyone doing Open Heart Surgery on the thread and suggesting other stuff

In reply to Cragrat Rich: Id say getting on the 6c's but also suggest doing some technique training on a bouldering wall. its very easy to get on a route thats above your grade but very hard to get the motivation to try it if you keep failing on it so work on some harder boulder problems to get him used to what his body can acheive on harder problems.

In reply to Cragrat Rich: See fifth paragraph: http://www.moonclimbing.com/endurance-training-c-334_364.html

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

Both. Do 6bs as a warm up, work a 6c and do some more 6bs to improve stamina.
That got me from 6a+ to 6b anyway.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

Why would you want to avoid the discussions that might actually benefit your friend though. The symptom of his problem is that he can't climb 6cs. It's not his problem. His problem could be anything from fear of falling to being piss weak with lack of stamina or cruddy technique as alternative options to be considered. Obviously you want us to agree that you are right and that an attacking attitude works, but depending on what the problem is attacking routes head on might not cure the symptom because it may do nothing to fix the problem.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:
Well if I wanted to do 6c then I'd get on 6c's.

Not saying that's the right answer, but at least it is an answer to the question you asked.

In reply to Cragrat Rich: I would say work the 6c routes and boulder out harder problems as well. You can develop loads of stamina on easier routes but that won't necessarily give the strength to get past a bouldery crux whereas getting strong will also help with stamina routes to an extent as the individual moves will feel easier.

In reply to Cragrat Rich: Get him climbing with someone who climbs harder than him. It helps me improve anyway. That way he can get on a top rope on some harder stuff and practice on that then start trying to lead it. Nothing like a bit of competition to get you fired up

In reply to AJM:

It may be that you have a predispositioned attitude towards me?


Ok. So can you name a problem a person might have with climbing 6c indoors, which wouldn't sort itself out by working 6c routes?

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

I don't think my opinion of you is especially relevant - it's rare for someone to post a "is my method or his" argument without having belief in their argument and seeking confirmation of such. It does strike me as odd that you seem to want a definitive one way or the other answer to the exclusion of other possibly more helpful suggestions.

Working 6c routes may enable you to climb 6c routes. But if you lack endurance then lapping 6bs might allow you to climb 6c faster, assuming that the goal is to move to regularly onsighting 6c - obviously the fastest way to redpoint a si gle one is to choose one and work it. Similarly practising good technique is more easily done on easier routes so if you have poor technique then drills on easier routes will probably promote good learning faster than climbing messily or with less volumeof moves (since you would expect a climber doing onsight mileage to cover more ground, make more moves and hence engrain more moves of goodtechnique climbing) on harder routes.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:
all you really know at the moment is you have a weakness that is stopping you climbing 6c but you do not know what it is?

big dave suggests blaming technique first.

technique is best trained on easier stuff & then stress proofed on harder stuff (that you can still do).

so if you really cannot work out what your weakness is then assume technique, read a training book or hire a coach.

In reply to AJM:

I'm not looking for that confirmation. I've progressed through that grade range and beyond an am very happy with the methodology I've used.

I think we're (me and he) both very aware that more strength, more power, some hard bouldering, falling practice and some technique training won't ever go amiss, when it comes to improvement! So that's dealt with.

The point of this thread is to discuss the differences between 'what we do when we're at the wall'.
I'm launching into ever harder grades (working and/or falling at limit)
He's clinging to the idea that he needs more stamina for 6c and reverts to the theory of climbing lots of 6b's.

I'm not looking for confirmation whether my methods better (interesting as it may be), because i'm going to continue as I am anyway, since it's working fine for me.

The point of the thread is to see if people think he's wasting his time (like I happen to do).

In reply to Cragrat Rich: Without knowing it you've just confirmed what AJM was saying about your motive.

Why exclude other possibly helpful solutions to 'your friends' problem?

As always, bizarre!

In reply to Cragrat Rich: Hi Rich, I agree with you that from the two choices you have given, getting onto 6cs is the better option than blaming stamina and remaining on 6bs.
However there is a much quicker way he could acheive 6c, and that is (as others have pointed out) to improve his technique. As a climbing coach I have taken many people to indoor 6c onsighting with no fitness training, sometimes in a few hours of technique coaching.
John

In reply to La Volpe:


Because I wasn't after an improvement clinic from the powers that be.
I was interested in comment and opinion regarding two distinct approaches.

In reply to AJM:


So what you're saying (and I'm trying not to think that you're just beligerently attempting to flaw anything Cratrat Rich happens to post)
is that in order to 'get up' one 6c you're better working the moves, but that won't do anything for consistently onsighting at 6c
... To do that, you have to climb at a lower grade more??

Can you see where you're not making sense dude!!

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

Seeing as most people have managed to detract from the OP's original question stated above which asked which of the 2 listed methods would be most likely to result in the goal of progressing from 6b to climbing 6c indoors.....

If failing at 6c then downgrading to consolidate at 6b with the notion that this will 'at some point down the line' give them success at the desired goal of 'freeing' 6c then it's a bit like going backward, in fact it's full on reverse.
Unfortunately to progress at anything in life whether it be climbing, career or birds one has to get out of their comfort zone; it's usually painful for a bit but ultimately a lot less painful than sticking well inside your current 'performance envelope'. Why do you think you see more than a few people down the wall continually cruising up things? They've managed to convince themselves that by doing 'loads' of easier routes they will 'some day' climb harder. Unfortunately 'loads' can turn into a lifetime of cruising a plateau.

The reason one route is graded 6b and the other graded 6c is there's a difference in difficulty level; even by climbing a million 6b's you're not climbing a single 6c.......

In reply to Cragrat Rich: high everyone ; I am the friend who is having trouble climbing 6c. thankyou all for the valuable advice ; very helpful, plenty to be thinking about.I think it's relevent to say that i usually climb once/maybe twice a week doing on average 15 routes including warm up routes so i think just more climbing might be best. i find the 6c moves ok but stringing them together from bottom to top a tall order.

In reply to Cragrat Rich: why can't he do the 6c's? Define failure - getting pumped? Giving up? Can't figure the sequence?

It ALL matters to the type of training that will help him the most improve.

This isn't open heart surgery. You have come somewhere where some people are very experienced in the very complex world of climbing performance where many factors are involved and there are always different solutions to problems. I'm not talking about me either, I'm an amateur.

It sounds like you're here after he won't take your kind advice (perhaps an argument?) to keep trying 6c's and in defiance you want to boost your ego by getting other people to agree with your approach as a one-size-fits-all approach. I'm really happy for you that your method working for you, but you need to respect other people have different strengths and weaknesses and may have to address them differently to improve.

If he's worried about stamina - perhaps he is scared and overgripping holds on 6c's so he burns out quickly and blames his stamina. Perhaps he loses his footwork and technique and uses his arms. Perhaps actually needs some stamina or power endurance. Perhaps he needs to warm up more. Perhaps the fear of failing because you climb at a higher grade than him puts him off from trying.

I hope your friend breaks through whatever is holding him back and you enjoy progressing through the grades too.

In reply to preston.bowers:


Maybe you should try climbing lots of 6b's? [ducks away]

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

When you say he tries 6C and can't make it - how many times has he tried this and over what period of time?
Does he want to do it over night? or in a couple of weeks?
Look at it in trad terms - how long does it take someone to go from E1-E2-E3-E4-E5? If you do one grade a month you could be climbing E9 in less than a year.
Your mate needs a reality check. It can take years to go from 6a to 7a so tell him to keep plugging away at 6b, 6b+ & 6c and he'll consolidate 6c sooner or later.

Enty

In reply to Cragrat Rich: Perhaps he just needs to read the moves better- as 6b to 6c is not a huge leap physically. if thats the case , then more routes equals more reading of rock equals success on 6c...

or conversely,

perhaps he should go down the wall and start top roping 7b moves/routes until 6c seams like a path where he can regularly stop for a chat and look at the view...

In reply to Enty:

He was on here a min ago so i'll let him do the talking now if need be.

Your statement doesn't make sense to me though.
I've climbed 6a - 6b/+ indoors since I started climbing 8 years ago.
Just recently - Instead of paying my entry fee at the wall and cruising up stuff up to and inc. 6b+ all night long, I ditched my entire long held ethos and began climbing harder routes, just a handful, partway up if that was all I could manage, taking falls and working the moves.
Three months after making that decision I'm climbing 7a

I believe that what we're talking about with my friend, is someone who is more than capable of cruising 6c and 7a indoors, if he allowed his mind and body to learn to do what was necessary - by working the routes.
I think he calls it Bashing them.

When you say he will consolidate at 6c sooner or later.
When do you mean? After he does what?

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

This thread still un-resolved?!?

J

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

Well, after a good few years out of the game I'm in exactly the same place as your mate but outdoors.

Over the last few weeks I've been getting out again and finding the following is happening:

6a - piss
6a+ - makes me think
6b - hard
6b+ - i get about 2 out of 3 I try first go
6c - I fall off but get one every so often.

So when I go out now, I warm up on a 6a, try a 6b+ then try a 6C. I'm also doing alot of cycling and losing weight so I know if I carry on like this, by June/july my grades will have shifted to look something like this:

6b - piss
6b+ - makes me think
6c - get about 2 out of 3
6c+/7a - fall but get a quick redpoint.

Does tat make sense - it just takes time. In my case hopefully 6 months minimum. I can't be arsed with any specific training - just climbing 3/4 times a week.
By doing it this way I'm onsighting more than I'm blowing so my motivation is also kept high.
I can't see the point in going out and blowing every route I try just to get stronger.

Enty

In reply to Cragrat Rich: I climb at about the same level - I reckon he should TR 6c's then second 6c's then attack them on the lead IF.. his objective is to lead 6c

Personally I dont do it as I get more motivated by picking and choosing the ones I fancy - for example, I can and do fall off some 6b's but can also lead 6c+ at the same wall.

for me - the angle etc is a greater factor than grade, i can do:
6c+ in corners / grooves
6c on vertical
6b+ on short overhangs
6b on long endurance routes (on a good day)
and cant get up 6a on the 23m barrel in 1 go!!

In reply to mark237:
>
>

yup - that's me!!

Enty

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

I was talking to a spanish dude at the wall today whose curently working a 7c since xmas.

I asked him if I was to improve, should I keep at the same routes and work them.

He assured me that this was the case. By trying a 6c and failing at a certain point, then doing something else, only to return a few days/week later and try the same 6c and fail again, same place; a person is achieving nothing. It's pointless!
He put it so clearly, that as you practice a route over and over, you learn the movements required and expend less energy/strength/stamina as your path evolves to success. Each saving of these resources are crucial, because operating at your limit means you WILL fail if you waste any amount of resource at all, be it strength, stamina, whatever.

Obviously, travelling the path of working a harder route, on smaller holds with bigger demands all round, will drag up your onsight ability too.

It's so clear to me now.... In order to improve your grades, you must be pushing yourself beyond your capabilities. ie working routes!

All outdoor climbing is different (for me) because I strive to climb only onsight, therefore making progress through grades much more difficult.
And if all you are after indoors is an enjoyable session getting to the top and having a low stress time, fine. Just cruise away at the same old grades forever.

But if you want to use indoor climbing to train fitness, strength, stamina, technique and all the rest....

...You've got to climb/work harder routes consistently.

That's what all the climbers who are serious about improving are doing.

Voila

In reply to Cragrat Rich:


I think serious climbers mostly boulder for (indoor) training.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:
I think you're broadly right, though stamina traing i.e. lots of easier routes should also feature in the traning regime. The other important point is that technique is crucial as you can save a lot of enery with better technique and some moves you will never do with poor technique. I think it's possible to climb a grade or two harder without getting stronger/fitter simply by employing better technique - so that could be the way forward for your friend.

Personally, I think the most important thing for me to improve for outdoors is technique and route reading ability. For indoors, strength/stamina seems to be a bit more of a limiting factor but even then technique improvements would take me a long way. Of course for outdoors you need loads of mileage, so I would disagree with those who claim that to climb up to about E2 you need to beast it at the wall more than once a week, provided that you're climbing outdoors at least once a week as well. Ok, I've diverged from the topic a bit.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

Going with my technique argument, he'd be better off getting onto 6cs and working them clip by clip or on a toprope to get the moves right, then once the moves are wired, trying to link them. The thing not to do is to go for the onsight and burn out fast as then he won't be able to do the moves even with good technique and he probably won't even get the moves right as technique goes to pot when you're pumped. Bouldering on problems of a similar style would also be helpful.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

Rich, I've heard, the best thing, is to top rope your dream tick, outdoors, on bolts above fifteen mats. Then ab off for tea and medals, not to mention a few dozen chicks.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:


I thought they were all bouldering and campusfingerboarding.

In reply to martin heywood:

I quite like that as one long word, "campusfingerboarding", nice.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

I don't think that was really what I was saying at all. If there's one thing I haven't done it's say there is a definitive answer, because I don't think there is one. I'm a bit bored of your strawman argument tactics, but I'll have a go at restating my initial position before quitting.

Your initial question and the subsequent posts to it led me to assume that the goal was to move from regularly onsightimg 6b indoors to regularly onsightimg 6c indoors. My initial post and the thrust of my subsequent argument is that by restricting yourself to considering and comparing only 2 ways of training - redpointing and volume onsights - you limit the improvements you can make because you are ignoring a lot of other potentially more useful ways to train.

Also, by assuming there is a definitive answer to your question you kind of ignore the differences between people and what holds them back.

Also, without knowledge of what if any other training the person in question does it's also difficult to make a case for a definitive answer - some of the better climbers I know boulder to get strong and hence when they put a rope on it's for lapping of routes to get fit.

I do maintain that this question has no right and wrong answer since it will depend on personal circumstances. Either method could well lead to improvements, but whether either of your approaches or indeed neither is the quickest or most long term sustainable way to improve is a different matter.

If I tried to flaw everything you posted I wouldn't get any work done - you're on here a lot. Some things you post I can agree with. But in this case I genuinely don't think that asking a question about which of a limited range of ways to improve is better for someone whose strengths and weaknesses we don't know and whose other training we know nothig about is going to enable the answer to be at all helpful.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

I've progressed through that grade range and beyond an am very happy with the methodology I've used.

Is that a Jim Perrin quote?

In reply to Cragrat Rich: In my experience both are invaluable to progressing through the grades. I think s big issue is that by doing a high volume of routes to train endurance people don't really push themselves as hard because done properly it really hurts! It's not a case of just doing 10-15 6b's in one session it's about climbing and downclimbing the 6b five or six times consecutively with no rest. When endurance is done well your arms should be screaming for a rest in my oppinion.

Obviously climbing harder than his current onsight will improve technique and force him to do harder moves and also improve. Just as bouldering will get him stronger too.

So long as he is increasing the demand on his muscles, mind or technique SIGNIFICANTLY he should continue to improve. Only someone who can see him would be able to identify his weaker areas where the most productive area to train would be but at 6b-6c all areas usually are still responsive to increases of intensity in that area.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:


Does he want to be onsighting 6cs? If so, he probably doesn't have a limitless supply so he'll need to be a bit tactical about leaving some to onsight once he's got his fittness/strength/approach up to scratch. If he is happy to redpoint he's less constrained.

Going via 6b+ is a good start, if he's getting a good proportion of those first go then he stands a good chance of flashing a 6c if he tries enough. If he fails the 6b+, redpoint it, identify weaknesses, work on them then move on.

Repeat the process on the 6cs until happy with those.

Working his weaknesses might be simply figuring out a sequence, doing linkups on 6a-b routes (or other PE work), bouldering to build strength or working on tactics and fear (or all 3!).

It's not rocket surgery but you don't really say what your friends problem is.
jk

In reply to Cragrat Rich: Hi Rich, its just a case of getting on them, perhaps have one session a week which is dedicated to redpointing a 6c untill he can do it, it will then seem easier next session.

In reply to Cragrat Rich and others: From skimming through the thread it seems that no-one has asked the most fundamental and basic questions:

How many times per week does your friend climb?

Does your friend both boulder and do routes?

If the answer to the first question is less than 3, then that is the fundamental reason that they are struggling. If they aren't climbing 3 times per week then whatever training they are doing is going to frankly have very little effect. [Conversely if they are training 4+ times then they risk over-training.]

Equally if they do not do a mix of routes and bouldering, again they've got a pretty poor chance of getting any better any time soon.

Only if your friend is already consistently climbing 3 times per week doing both routes and bouldering, is it even worth discussing fine-tuning what climbing they do.

It might not be the answer people want to hear but when it comes to looking at training the absolute basics are Optimum Quantity and Sufficient Variety.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

It wasn't Manuel of Fawlty Towers was it?

>
Did he reply "I know nothing Mr Fawlty!"




I don't agree with you or Manuel.

I and many other I know have "progressed" indoors without ever working a single indoor route.

Using 4x4 stamina training, bouldering and some onsighting may also be the way for some people to improve.

Different methods will work for different people.

In reply to 1234None:

What a surprise!!

It wasn't Manuel though. It was a guy who climbs harder and better than you'll ever even dream about.
As in, he actualy climbs, instead of spending all his time getting photographed

We had a chat about Riglos too... Your favourite aid venue 8-)

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

There's tons of good advice on this thread. Here's a way of structuring it which may be helpful.

I'm assuming your friend is trying to onsight and hitting an onsight ceiling.

Have 6b (or whatever it is for him) as an onsight grade.

Try something 2 grades harder, e.g. 6c, as a redpoint (worked) grade.

Forget onsighting (for now). Just get on some redpoint projects on a top-rope (horrors!) and work them, resting on the rope, all over the place.

Can your mate do the moves? If not, is it:

Lack of technique?
Lack of finger strength?
Lack of power?
Lack of...

Whatever it is, training needs will emerge. The answer (as many have suggested) will probably be bouldering.

If your mate can do the moves but can't link sections and do it in one, on a top-rope, it looks like:

Lack of power/endurance?
Lack of endurance?

Again, clear training needs...

If he can do it on a top-rope but can't redpoint it:

Lack of bottle?
Lack of self-confidence?
Lack of tactics?

Again, clear training needs...

The trick is to use the redpoint grade to translate the unknown ("I'm failing - why??") into clear training needs.

You keep moving the redpoint grade - and the onsight grade - up.

A couple of last points:

Serpico was giving your mate really good advice - it's little by little.
Enty and Mark are spot on - you have to put the work in. Unless your mate is doing something climbing-related at least three times a week, he may get to 6c but it's unlikely he'll get much further. Don't want to be negative - just mean to be honest.

Hope this makes sense. Good luck!

Mick

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

On the open heart surgery thing I'm suprised nobody mentioned diet and body mass index, Not sonething to get paranoid about but it should be in the mix. My indoor climbing has gone up a whole grade since just after christmas. ( I've also lost 4 pounds)

Mick's summary is great BTW - no simplistic answers but an analysis of the problem and a plan to make progress generally works.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:


Is this really true? Because I only manage to climb about once every 2-3 weeks, and I've just managed 6b to 6c?

Chris

In reply to Chris Ellyatt:

I don't think what Mark was saying is tied to a specific grade range, merely as a strategy for someone who has plateaued. Have you been climbing long?

In reply to jonny2vests:

Oh right - fair enough, I can see that. Started climbing...June last year, so about 6-7 months?

Chris

In reply to Chris Ellyatt and jonny2vests: As I mentioned above it is an issue of GENERAL guidance about OPTIMUM training volume.

If you are climbing less then the optimum then it will just take you much longer to progress and if you are training more then you risk over-training and injury.

As a general guide the optimum amount of training is as follows:
Beginners (up to perhaps f5+/6a) - 2 times per week
Intermediate (mid/high f6s) - 3 times per week
Advanced (f7s) - 4 times per week
Elite (f8s) - 5 times per week

If you are happy to progress more slowly by climbing less then that is obviously your decision. However if you are struggling to progress and want training advice then you can't get away from the basic physiology of the human body and its response to training through super-compensation on which the above is all based.

Hope that puts the advice in a wider content.

In reply to Chris Ellyatt:
If you're onsighting 6c reasonably consistently, then that's pretty good for 6 months. Took me years, pretty sure Mark wasn't that quick either

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

What's wrong with Saul's Crack BTW? Mint!

In reply to jonny2vests:

haha thanks . Well - I wouldn't say consistently! A few times, but as I said, unfortauntely I don't have the time to climb that much!

I think I just really need to concentrate on nailing something hard. Been watching Neil Gresham's Masterclass - can't wait to put it into action!

Chris

In reply to Cragrat Rich: i recently made this jump. Two things helped ME but the cause of my problems may not have been the same as your friends. The first thing to say is that you have to want it - if you have 6c you want to climb in the future then its good for motivation....The first thing was that i was honest about my weakenesses - i had always thought my technique pretty good and put my lack of success down to strength. In fact once i get onto overhanging stuff my technique goes to crap so i worked on that. 2nd thing is that i got a friend into NLP to remove my limiting belief that i couldn't do it (6c) - and that worked too!!

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

Assuming that you are talking about F6c then probably two options(a) buckle down to consolidate 6b and keep trying 6c or (b) accept that he has reached his peak. How ever did people progress before internet forums?

If you're talking English 6c, then get strong fingers and good technique.

In reply to Cragrat Rich: to get better indoors (ie go from 6b to 6c), climb outdoors.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

Lots of opinions on this thread. My thought is that if you climb only 6bs you will never develop the strength or technique to climb 6c. You need to stress the body to improve.

However - I would suggest working routes of 6c+ to 7a. This way he is starting on a route that he doesn't expect to succeed on, so will expect to work the moves. A bit of time linking sections on that route, then dropping down again to 6c will feel easy. (The other thing is that he may find he gets closer to succeeding than expected, and will be inspired!)

If your friend doesn't want to work routes (which will work - otherwise how does anyone ever redpoint anything!) then the simplest (and probably better) strategy is to boulder. Get strong. Stamina is not really an issue indoors as the routes are too short, although power endurance will be useful.

In reply to Monk:

Agree with most of that. I broke through the 6c grade and beyond last year (indoors and out) through trying harder routes (6c+ - 7a+).

My approach was that your body doesn't learn to do harder moves unless you are frequently trying them.

FWIW I tend to focus on improving my strength as I'm naurally quite a skinny, weedy sort. I did a lot of this at home on the fingerboard, but also did push some weights too.

I also have at least two bouldering sessions every week to compliment the routes sessions (normally have two or more of those as well). The focus in these sessions for me is usually quality and not quantity.

The only thing I disagree with Monk on is the idea that Stamina isn't important indoors. I found one of the biggest challenges was taking my new level from the 10-12m walls and applying it on the 20m main overhanging wall at Kendal. I used to run out of steam 3/4 of the way up every time.

I think its still worth your mate keeping his/her hand in with the onsighting. Progressing to regular 6b+ onsighting will be a good step forward.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

In direct reply to the OP- neither approach.

Go bouldering to build up finger strength, power, and technique on hard moves.

This will push grades up quicker tha endurance training.

To quote "if you cannot pull one single hard move you have nothing to endure".

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

usually the 6a to 6c climber lacks many redpointing skills.

your friend mentioned the moves on the 6c's are ok but the linkup is not.

my question to him is : do you link efficiently?
Do you have an action plan and climb the route in a fluent way at least to some point high up where you are so pumped that the beta you've worked out with fresh forearms doesn't work and you hesitate?

Or, as most 6-grade climbers do, do you hang half a second between each move asking yourself what's next and thinking "foot here, reach there", then executing?

If it is the second case, i'd stick with trying to redpoint the 6c and develop the ability to remember the whole sequence, imagine how every move and transition should feel, and then execute without thinking too much.

Mind it is a key ability in onsighting too and to make progress in general, even if you "train" it better while trying redpoints.

Then, it could also be that your friend is an experienced climber onsighting 7a's and redpointing 7c's outdoors, in which case he's probably right about his simple need for mileage on plastic.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

I think its more complex as some have pointed out. There are excellent resources out there on performance enhancement and all say the same thing (a unique attack on one training aspect is ill advised even if its you main weakness) and give very good advice (working all key aspects but focussing on weakness).

Sports grades are a pain in one respect as a flashed grade is usually harder to do than redpointing the grade above, so if you normally flash 6a, some 6c's should be within redpoint range. Personnally I can't help in anything more than theory as I get bored working sports routes and dislike falling so I've never climbed a 6c (although I know I could have done do so from some very long bouldering traverses I've done after obsessive working that I'm told would easily have been equivalent).

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

I think your friend need to do both in combination.

Get him/her on a 6c early in a session after your warm up. Get them working the moves and memorising the sequences. Get them to work links. But leave the route before they get too tired and their technique deteriorates.

Then get on the 6bs. Find one that was a struggle to onsight. Do it. Come down. Have a short rest. Do it again, until they fall. Repeat.

That way they're training technique-strength for the 6c when they're fresh then working endurance.

I quite recently went from 6b to 6c onsighting ability (indoors at least) and with injured fingers. Most of my training was endurance on easier routes, and falling training. I think most 6b climbers are strong and fit enough to climb 6c if they're uninhibited by the fear of falling (safely, in a sport context).

In reply to Cragrat Rich:
are we at 6c yet?

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

I was working 6b a couple of weeks ago and can flash some of them now. I thought I'd try a 6b+ at the wall last night and ended up getting a clean onsight on it!
I'll stick with my advice of a couple of 6as to warm up a 6a+, a 6b then spend some time working a 6c or 6b+ before knocking out some laps on a 6b to improve endurance before warming down. Worked for me over the last month anyway.
Your mate needs to believe in himself and push himself a bit. Hope he's making some headway.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

If he can climb 6b regularly, he should easily red-point 6c. Farting around in your comfort zone does nothing whatsoever. Warm up, then work the 6c objective until it goes. Move onto the next.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

having thought about this further, its all in his head, 6c is not a quantum leap from 6b and he needs to succeed on just one 6c to move fwd psychologically - so what can make him succeed on a 6c? probably practicing a route until he has it, then if he still cant red point due to fear of leading above gear, then he should lead up a nice steep 6b and take some planned falls near the top with plenty rope out to take away the fear (a little!) ... this will work, but it is all about how much one wants to succeed in sport climbing as i have seen some climbers of natural talent succeeding on 8a+

In reply to Cragrat Rich: how about going inbetween the two grades and try a 6b+!!

In reply to Cragrat Rich: I agree - doing a load of stuff at your limit (i.e. 6b for him) is great for building up endurance and technique, but to build the power endurance, I'd say get on the hard stuff and work it till it's done. Others have said try 7a - that might work too, then when you get back on the 6c the moves feel easy.

P.S. Also, I bet they're nto trying 100% - get them to take lots and lots of leader falls - you need to be totally immune to the fear (on bolts) to be able to climb 100%.

In reply to mark mcgowan01:
oops i meant to say "limited natural talent" doh!...

In reply to Stefan Kruger:

According to the cb294 school of climbing, one should always climb one or two grades above one´s ability in the gym. No point faffing around in you comfort zone, one will anyway do that outside, especially when climbing trad (especially if you are as easily scared as I am). Anyway, endurance training in the gym is almost lethally boring.

Cheers,

Christian