UKC

Inside-out bowline technique?

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Hello. About a year ago a German climbing instructor showed me a nice (mistakes unlikely) method for a double bowline. The method involved partially tying the knot inside out then popping out before doubling up the knot. Unfortunately, I can't recreate it from memory nor find anything about it online (in the mess of bowline variations). Does this ring a bell with anyone/can anyone point me to a name or resource for revision? MUCH LOVE! 

 jimtitt 04 Jan 2022
In reply to TomClimbsSafely?:

Tie a slipped overhand, poke the end through and capsize the overhand (tug on it).

 von_donsburg 04 Jan 2022
In reply to TomClimbsSafely?:

Was it the first of these two methods?

youtube.com/watch?v=t4lnFEzsnbU&

 cb294 04 Jan 2022
In reply to von_donsburg:

That is indeed the standard method as taught by the DAV,

CB

 a crap climber 04 Jan 2022
In reply to TomClimbsSafely?:

Just in the spirit of classic UKC pedantry, the knot shown in von_donsburg's linked video is a bowline on the bight, not a double bowline.

Quite liking this method of tying (though I've only ever used a bowline on the bight for tying into the middle of a rope, where unfortunately this wouldn't work).

Fully expecting someone to come along and correct me now...

 lithos 04 Jan 2022
In reply to von_donsburg:

ive always called it the cavers method as jim describes

youtube.com/watch?v=_Dj2UEhgwLk&     2nd method 25 seconds in...

note the re-threaded is usually referred to as a bowline on a bight (or bunny ears) see youtube.com/watch?v=8DzRumN3ThU&

a double bowline (tied in double loops) see  youtube.com/watch?v=3I6B_WNGehY&

 jimtitt 04 Jan 2022
In reply to a crap climber:

> Just in the spirit of classic UKC pedantry, the knot shown in von_donsburg's linked video is a bowline on the bight, not a double bowline.

> Quite liking this method of tying (though I've only ever used a bowline on the bight for tying into the middle of a rope, where unfortunately this wouldn't work).

> Fully expecting someone to come along and correct me now...

You mean it looks like a bowline tied on a bight.........

 cb294 04 Jan 2022
In reply to a crap climber:

> Fully expecting someone to come along and correct me now...

Happy to oblige...

That "pull through and flip" method of tying a bowline works nicely in the middle! Actually, it is my preferred way to tie in the middle for glacier travel.

Thread a bight through your tie in loop, make the first loop of the bow line using both strands of the rope leading to your partners, pull a short bight made of the two free ends through that loop, thread the original bight through that small bight, and pull to flip the knot.

No need to rethread (you REALLY do not want a bowline made of four ropes anyway), just clip the free bight back into you harness using a small screwgate.

CB

 a crap climber 04 Jan 2022
In reply to jimtitt:

Not sure if this is meant as some humorous pedantry or if I've actually gotten something wrong? (in which case please educate me!?

 a crap climber 04 Jan 2022
In reply to cb294:

I might be misunderstanding but I think this results in a subtly different knot? 

The method I've used involves stepping through the loop formed by the 'starting' bight of rope and you get the knot shown in von_donsburg's link and in lithos's first link i.e. 'bunny ears' (which I've always known as a 'bowline-on-the-bight'). This is useful for e.g. leading a short route with one half rope folded in half. I've tried it for glacier travel/moving together as a three before but I always put an alpine butterfly in the middle first with half a meter or so between that and the middle person so that they don't get yanked around too much. Tying in with 'bunny ears' where you step through the bight if you do this gets a bit faffy.

I think I might be explaining this badly and am probably going to just cause confusion...

Edit: I'm not questioning the validity of your method btw. I normally use a rethreaded overhand with a screwgate through the free bight, but I think your method (if I'm following it correctly) possibly gives a slightly less bulky knot. No idea if there's any other pros/cons but it would be interesting if anyone knows

Post edited at 17:43
 lithos 04 Jan 2022
In reply to a crap climber:

cb294 is describing a double bowline  as per the videos i posted

 a crap climber 04 Jan 2022
In reply to lithos:

Thanks for the clarification. I haven't come across this type of bowline before.

The only 'double bowline' knot I knew until this thread is this:

https://www.netknots.com/rope_knots/double-bowline-knot

I guess this is the kind of thing the op was referring to with the comment about 'the mess of bowline variations'

 lithos 04 Jan 2022
In reply to a crap climber:

yep i've heard double bowline for that version as well - naming is a bit of a mess !

i tend to call that double-ring bowline - there are much more experienced people on here than i (is it user Noggin? or similar who is a knot geek) who probably know ashley's book of knots off by heart, and there's than massive pdf all about bowline analysis  floating about on interweb.

BTW i've also seen cb294 version called a 'bowline with a bight' - which sort of makes sense but i think most people ignore the middle tow words 'on the' vs 'with a'  and hear 'bowline .. bight'

Post edited at 19:24
 Acrux 05 Jan 2022
In reply to TomClimbsSafely?:

This site has excellent pdf's on bowlines and other knots if anyone is interested (scroll down to bowline analysis pdf):

http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php

The pdf's are password protected. Password is "copyright"

Personally I like 'Lee's locked yosemite bowline' the best

 LastBoyScout 05 Jan 2022
In reply to cb294:

I've always known that method as a bowline on a bight, or triple bowline, as you actually end up with 3 loops.

The double bowline is the one described in von_donsburg's video (even though it's a re-threaded one) and alluded to by A Crap Climber when he mentions stepping through the loop, as there are only 2 loops.

Admittedly, there are a LOT of variations of the bowline and the names seem to mean different ones if you're a sailor, climber, caver or scout!

Worth remembering that, at it's core, a "standard" bowline is just a sheetbend.

Incidentally, in respect of von_donsburg's video, I always start a bowline with the end of the rope going down through the harness, not up as they demonstrate, but then I tend to use a single bowline with a stopper knot - it's my preferred tie-in for walls, as it's easy to undo after loading and quick to tie when you're changing routes a lot.

Post edited at 09:09
 cb294 05 Jan 2022
In reply to lithos:

Only the initial, convenient way of tying the bowline, but using a bight from the middle of the rope rather than a free end.

I do not recommend threading back!

CB

 cb294 05 Jan 2022
In reply to LastBoyScout:

I also go down first for the rethreaded version. I agree that bowlines are to be preferred if you expect to be logging a few air miles, as fig 8s become a PITA to untie!

CB

In reply to TomClimbsSafely?:

Thanks everyone! It does seem the first method in the youtube link is what I was after. 

I'm also tickled pink to have initiated a volley of UKC pedantry in my first thread! 

 jimtitt 05 Jan 2022
In reply to LastBoyScout:

> I've always known that method as a bowline on a bight, or triple bowline, as you actually end up with 3 loops.

> The double bowline is the one described in von_donsburg's video (even though it's a re-threaded one) and alluded to by A Crap Climber when he mentions stepping through the loop, as there are only 2 loops.

> Admittedly, there are a LOT of variations of the bowline and the names seem to mean different ones if you're a sailor, climber, caver or scout!

> Worth remembering that, at it's core, a "standard" bowline is just a sheetbend.

> Incidentally, in respect of von_donsburg's video, I always start a bowline with the end of the rope going down through the harness, not up as they demonstrate, but then I tend to use a single bowline with a stopper knot - it's my preferred tie-in for walls, as it's easy to undo after loading and quick to tie when you're changing routes a lot.

For German pedants the re-threaded is actually the one-and-a-half bowline. One of it's major advantages is it stops endless internet drivel about top down or bottom up threading as one does both

 LastBoyScout 05 Jan 2022
In reply to jimtitt:

Going down first means that I can tie the stopper knot on the side that is away from my body, so the loop runs freer through my harness/legloops.

 jon 05 Jan 2022
In reply to LastBoyScout:

Hmmm, I thread the leg loops then the belt... and still get the stopper in the same place you do.

 jimtitt 05 Jan 2022
In reply to cb294:

> I also go down first for the rethreaded version. I agree that bowlines are to be preferred if you expect to be logging a few air miles, as fig 8s become a PITA to untie! <

Any idea how bowlines compare with "the better way" of tying the figure eight  ( youtube.com/watch?v=QAr-uHd8h8o& ) regarding ease of untying after falls?

 cb294 05 Jan 2022
In reply to oldie:

Never tried it, as it kills the one big advantage of the FoA, i.e. that it is easy to buddy check.

CB

In reply to cb294:

Perhaps I'm being a bit thick but surely its just as easy to check the appearance of the fig of 8 for safety whichever way its tied?

Edit: I am being thick.....you probably mean you've never tried the bowline.

Post edited at 16:50
 lithos 05 Jan 2022
In reply to oldie:

fo8 tied either way is not as easy as a bowline IME.  Even the 'better' way is still stiff but not desperate.  YMMV

 agent_smith 08 Jan 2022
In reply to TomClimbsSafely?:

Hello 'Tom'.
Just extracting key points from your post:
[ ] "double Bowline"

[ ] "partially tying the [a] knot inside out then popping out before doubling up the knot"

There are many different types of 'Bowlines' (more than 30 different types).

The 'double Bowline' unique identifier is #1013
The 'Bowline with a bight' unique identifier is #1074
The 'Bowline-on-a-bight' is #1080

They all have completely different geometries.

You mentioned a German climbing instructor - so it might be the case that s/he is simply following some doctrine - and likely tied a #1080 Bowline on a bight.

The 'popping' you are referring to is likely the technique that has been known and understood since before 1944 (more than 77 years ago - per Ashley at #1014).
The technique involves initially forming a 'Marlinspike hitch', and then feeding the tail through the Marlinspike and then pulling on the hitch - which triggers a sudden change to its geometry (similar to a Carrick bend which also undergoes geometric change when load is applied).
The technique has been known as the 'lightning method' or the 'snap method'.
Keep in mind that there are in fact several possible outcomes using this technique (depending on which way you feed the rope and how you form the initial Marlinspike hitch).

...

With regard to follow up posts... one of the principal benefits of all 'Bowlines' is the fact that they are 'PET' (Post Eye Tiable).
The F8 is not 'PET'.
Also, due to its structure, all 'Bowlines' are jam resistant (the nipping loop is the fundamental component of all 'Bowlines').
Note also that with the F8, there are in fact 4 different geometries - and peer reviewed testing is (using the scientific method) is required to fully flesh out and verify which geometry is more resistant to jamming. This means using a load cell and a control group...and both EN1891 and EN892 ropes.

Post edited at 03:16
In reply to agent_smith:

Thanks. Interesting. I confess I had to google "post eye tiable".

Presumably a main advantage of PET is that one cannot forget to tie the second half of a knot. It is also said to be slightly easier to judge the amount of rope needed.

 It is easy to check or buddy check that the Fo8 is safe. As more people use Fo8s and as many never tie a bowline and there are many versions of the knot, a buddy check will often not be possible. It seems that tying the Fo8 in the "better" way lessens the major problem of jamming, though you point out that this needs proper testing for different ropes (I suppose even in the absence of more testing unexpected jamming would not usually be a safety issue but more a matter of convenience).

FWIW I learnt to climb bottom roping on sandstone tying round the waist with just the basic bowline.. Never any problem but of course the knot was retied for each short climb and only loaded in one direction. Recently after a long scramble I lead a couple of pitches tied on in the same manner but for the first used a waist belay, and for the second pitch used an ATC (as there was a long traverse) on a Fo8 in the rope close to my waist and a redirect as I thought it better than clipping the device directly into the rope round my waist tied with a bowline.


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