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Is it? Talcum powder is (apparently), so why not climbing chalk?
In reply to adstapleton: chalk isnt made of talcum powder?
In reply to adstapleton: I think you need to be wary of being over cautious here about the word carcinogenic. Not any exposure to talcum powder is carcinogenic. You would need to inhale a lot of it - a talc miner, or inhale a whole load of it in some bizarre accident. Similarly, unless you start inhaling large amounts of climbing chalk (not sure how you would do that), you would find it hard to put yourself at risk.
Petrol is carcinogenic. Petrol is carcinogenic if you ingest the bloody stuff. Yet we all fill our car with it regularly, it gets splashed on our hands and we inhale vapours. You need a sense of perspective here!
Petrol is carcinogenic. Petrol is carcinogenic if you ingest the bloody stuff. Yet we all fill our car with it regularly, it gets splashed on our hands and we inhale vapours. You need a sense of perspective here!
In reply to nickinscottishmountains: So I'm not gonna get hand cancer in twenty years?
In reply to adstapleton: It can never as simple as that. Some people are exposed to huge amounts of carcinogens for all their life and do not get it (e.g. some lifelong heavy smokers), some are exposed to absolutely minimal levels (i.e. background levels) and get it. It depends on too many other things which interact, genetics, other environmental, triggers, time, levels of exposure, to name some but not all.
In reply to adstapleton:
The particle size is too large for it to get deep into the lungs where it would cause repeated irritation.
The paradox is that block/loose chalk has a larger paarticle size than that from chalk balls. All that guff at your local wall about using chalk balls for health reasons is actually to keep their cleaning costs down. It is all a conspiricy I tell you.
The particle size is too large for it to get deep into the lungs where it would cause repeated irritation.
The paradox is that block/loose chalk has a larger paarticle size than that from chalk balls. All that guff at your local wall about using chalk balls for health reasons is actually to keep their cleaning costs down. It is all a conspiricy I tell you.
In reply to adstapleton: I think a lifetime of climbing is probably more dangerous.
In reply to willoates:
Well now that you mention it, you do realise that it's not uncommon for granite to have up to ten times the amount of radiation compared to normal background
Well now that you mention it, you do realise that it's not uncommon for granite to have up to ten times the amount of radiation compared to normal background
In reply to Tyroneslater: Bugger!
In reply to all:
I've wondered about this many times in the past. Until we get a proper long-term scientific investigation it's all guesswork.
Is there anything about climbing chalk, chemically, that might make it a worse hazard than dust in general?
Who's going to fund a study of a possible health issue that would affect such a small minority?
I've wondered about this many times in the past. Until we get a proper long-term scientific investigation it's all guesswork.
Is there anything about climbing chalk, chemically, that might make it a worse hazard than dust in general?
Who's going to fund a study of a possible health issue that would affect such a small minority?
In reply to adstapleton:
Probably why snooker referees wear gloves when handling and cleaning cue balls.
> Is it? Talcum powder is (apparently), so why not climbing chalk?
Probably why snooker referees wear gloves when handling and cleaning cue balls.
Not that I actually need much chalk anyway; in four years of climbing I'm only on my 2nd ball. I'm blessed (cursed really) with horrendously dry hands all the time!!
In reply to adstapleton: That's crazy, i go through one at least once a month!
In reply to adstapleton: Climbing Chalk (the stuff on the South Coast) is a pretty stressful experience, stress is one of the biggest triggers for cancer, so it must be a powerful carcinogen, unless you are immune to the stress of climbing crumbly rubbish above insecure warthogs.
In reply to The Ivanator:
I have to say, when I first heard of it, chalk climbing sounded like protracted suicide to me! Not something I'd go for personally.
I have to say, when I first heard of it, chalk climbing sounded like protracted suicide to me! Not something I'd go for personally.
In reply to adstapleton:
Climbing chalk is Magnesium carbonate, a laxative which we used to have to go to the chemist to buy (in lots of about half a dozen packs). God knows what the chemist thought. An awful lot of people have swallowed vast amounts of this stuff for 100s of years, so the cancer-tests have probably been done. It also works for indigestion.
Talc is finely-ground rock and not licensed for internal consumption. Its tiny insoluble particles get deep in the lungs and stay there. The only resemblance is that it too is a white powder.
> Is it? Talcum powder is (apparently), so why not climbing chalk?
Climbing chalk is Magnesium carbonate, a laxative which we used to have to go to the chemist to buy (in lots of about half a dozen packs). God knows what the chemist thought. An awful lot of people have swallowed vast amounts of this stuff for 100s of years, so the cancer-tests have probably been done. It also works for indigestion.
Talc is finely-ground rock and not licensed for internal consumption. Its tiny insoluble particles get deep in the lungs and stay there. The only resemblance is that it too is a white powder.
In reply to hedgepig: I think you'll find that talc is also some form of metal carbonate, plus other stuff, so the fact that climbing chalk and talc are the same colour is not the most significant similarity...
In reply to _MJC_:
I never use chalk.Firstly even other people's chalk gives me trouble with contact lenses.Secondly I wash my hands that frequently during the day, mostly with Hibiscrub,that my hands are generally dry.
I must say that I do not like the idea of the amount of chalk dust floating around at the wall, and I do not feel convinced that it has been properly evaluated epidemiologically etc for chronic pulmonary disease.
I never use chalk.Firstly even other people's chalk gives me trouble with contact lenses.Secondly I wash my hands that frequently during the day, mostly with Hibiscrub,that my hands are generally dry.
I must say that I do not like the idea of the amount of chalk dust floating around at the wall, and I do not feel convinced that it has been properly evaluated epidemiologically etc for chronic pulmonary disease.
In reply to adstapleton:
White lung is actually a form of emphysema, characterised by bullous lesions accompanied by significant fibrosis and loss of elasticity of the lower lobes of the lung, mostly the right due to anatomical variation. Described in 2008 by a resp. physician from yosemite it has been shown to affect 25-40 year olds who have climbed for more than 15 yrs.
its not quite cancer but its still pretty bad.
White lung is actually a form of emphysema, characterised by bullous lesions accompanied by significant fibrosis and loss of elasticity of the lower lobes of the lung, mostly the right due to anatomical variation. Described in 2008 by a resp. physician from yosemite it has been shown to affect 25-40 year olds who have climbed for more than 15 yrs.
its not quite cancer but its still pretty bad.
In reply to nadeem:
It's a requirement in construction now that anyone cutting concrete (or nearby) has to wear a minimum FFP3 mask now because of silicosis. I am not 100% sure, but I think chalk does contain silicates
It's a requirement in construction now that anyone cutting concrete (or nearby) has to wear a minimum FFP3 mask now because of silicosis. I am not 100% sure, but I think chalk does contain silicates
In reply to nadeem:
Is that caused by inhaling climbing chalk dust?
> (In reply to adstapleton)
>
> White lung is actually a form of emphysema, characterised by bullous lesions accompanied by significant fibrosis and loss of elasticity of the lower lobes of the lung
>
> White lung is actually a form of emphysema, characterised by bullous lesions accompanied by significant fibrosis and loss of elasticity of the lower lobes of the lung
Is that caused by inhaling climbing chalk dust?
In reply to Tyroneslater: research is ongoing. Its a fairly significant case series but real hard evidence is lacking. Will be a few years yet til we know just how bad it is.
In reply to nadeem: That's v interesting. My old dot has COPD and it's certainly something I'd like to avoid. I never need chalk outside, and rarely inside, however it is plain to see the dust build up in the air and on all surfaces of my local indoor wall, so I'm defo breathing in plenty of fines....
Worrying, especially when I consider that I probably have about 25-30 years more exposure to it, assuming the rest of my health remains good.
My new mantra will accordingly be; "real climbers don't need chalk" in an effort to rid the sport of carcinogenic(maybe)/lung damaging stuff. Anyone want the t-shirt?
Worrying, especially when I consider that I probably have about 25-30 years more exposure to it, assuming the rest of my health remains good.
My new mantra will accordingly be; "real climbers don't need chalk" in an effort to rid the sport of carcinogenic(maybe)/lung damaging stuff. Anyone want the t-shirt?
In reply to adstapleton:
FFS, you have to die of something. I don't see climbers dropping dead like flies at the A&E.
My mantra will be the same as Debbie Harry. Die young, stay pretty.
FFS, you have to die of something. I don't see climbers dropping dead like flies at the A&E.
My mantra will be the same as Debbie Harry. Die young, stay pretty.
In reply to Tyroneslater:
Why do you spend all this time at A&E? Do you fall off a lot?
How do you know which people are climbers? Chalky Hands?
Do people generally drop dead like flies at A&E?
If so, how do you know it wasn't climbing chalk that killed them?
> (In reply to adstapleton)
>
> I don't see climbers dropping dead like flies at the A&E.
>
> I don't see climbers dropping dead like flies at the A&E.
Why do you spend all this time at A&E? Do you fall off a lot?
How do you know which people are climbers? Chalky Hands?
Do people generally drop dead like flies at A&E?
If so, how do you know it wasn't climbing chalk that killed them?
In reply to nadeem:
Magnesium carbonate is the main constituent in chalk; however, some of the cheaper chalks use Silicon Dioxide also known as Silica as a drying agent.
The boring bit: Silicon dioxide is causative of silicosis, a disease more commonly encountered in stonemasons, sandblasters and ceramic workers. Whilst not carcinogenic, Silicon dioxide is fibrogenic. It is both toxic to alveolar macrophages which in response produce cytokines which cause fibroblasts to initiate fibrogenesis.
Nadeem this causes lung restriction not emphysema (destruction of alveoli) resulting in difficulty breathing in. Emphysema causes reduced surface area for gaseous exchange. It is associated with difficulty on inspiration only because it usually presents along with chronic bronchitis which clogs the upper airways. Together this is called COPD.
Hope this helps. If you need a drying agent in your chalk buy the good stuff like metolius superchalk!
Magnesium carbonate is the main constituent in chalk; however, some of the cheaper chalks use Silicon Dioxide also known as Silica as a drying agent.
The boring bit: Silicon dioxide is causative of silicosis, a disease more commonly encountered in stonemasons, sandblasters and ceramic workers. Whilst not carcinogenic, Silicon dioxide is fibrogenic. It is both toxic to alveolar macrophages which in response produce cytokines which cause fibroblasts to initiate fibrogenesis.
Nadeem this causes lung restriction not emphysema (destruction of alveoli) resulting in difficulty breathing in. Emphysema causes reduced surface area for gaseous exchange. It is associated with difficulty on inspiration only because it usually presents along with chronic bronchitis which clogs the upper airways. Together this is called COPD.
Hope this helps. If you need a drying agent in your chalk buy the good stuff like metolius superchalk!
In reply to nepsoi999:
What drying agent do Metolius use? It's not mentioned on the packaging and I've always wondered.
What drying agent do Metolius use? It's not mentioned on the packaging and I've always wondered.
In reply to adstapleton:
From a point of view of a scientist and oncology specialist, and meaning to sound patronising.
Holy crap are a lot of people on here massively retarded.
From a point of view of a scientist and oncology specialist, and meaning to sound patronising.
Holy crap are a lot of people on here massively retarded.
In reply to adstapleton:
Are you really The Lemming?
If not...well.. I reckon you'll be alright. In fact, I promise you that climbing chalk will not be the cause of your death.
Are you really The Lemming?
If not...well.. I reckon you'll be alright. In fact, I promise you that climbing chalk will not be the cause of your death.
In reply to Kid Spatula:
This is the one and only post that makes me wish ukc did them silly yellow smiley things.
Chapeau, lots of applauding irritating yellow circles to you
> (In reply to adstapleton)
>
> From a point of view of a scientist and oncology specialist, and meaning to sound patronising.
>
> Holy crap are a lot of people on here massively retarded.
>
> From a point of view of a scientist and oncology specialist, and meaning to sound patronising.
>
> Holy crap are a lot of people on here massively retarded.
This is the one and only post that makes me wish ukc did them silly yellow smiley things.
Chapeau, lots of applauding irritating yellow circles to you
In reply to Kid Spatula: Awesome. Pleased be prepared to be told off for being rude.
In reply to Kid Spatula: Is the second line of your post a statement or a question? It looks like a question but has no question mark.
Patronise that, you patron!
Patronise that, you patron!
In reply to Kid Spatula: And just think, for some inexplicable reason, a lot of people think some scientists have problems with interpersonal communication....amazing eh?
Why not enlighten us with your infinite wisdom then, rather than patronising us?
Why not enlighten us with your infinite wisdom then, rather than patronising us?
In reply to nadeem:
Source please. Searching scientific and medical databases with "emphysema" AND "magnesium carbonate" finds nothing.
> White lung is actually a form of emphysema, characterised by bullous lesions accompanied by significant fibrosis and loss of elasticity of the lower lobes of the lung, mostly the right due to anatomical variation. Described in 2008 by a resp. physician from yosemite it has been shown to affect 25-40 year olds who have climbed for more than 15 yrs.
Source please. Searching scientific and medical databases with "emphysema" AND "magnesium carbonate" finds nothing.
In reply to flaneur: cant find the original article actually, not sure where i read it, but try Agewall S. Lancet 2003 May 10;361(9369):1659
he mentions a couple of cases in that.
he mentions a couple of cases in that.
In reply to nadeem:
Thank you for the suggestion, but that reference is about academics writing and reviewing scientific papers for nothing whilst science publishers make a lot of money. It has nothing to do with chalk or emphysema. http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2803%2913292...
Can you try again as what you are saying could be important to know about, if it is true.
> (In reply to flaneur) cant find the original article actually, not sure where i read it, but try Agewall S. Lancet 2003 May 10;361(9369):1659
> he mentions a couple of cases in that.
> he mentions a couple of cases in that.
Thank you for the suggestion, but that reference is about academics writing and reviewing scientific papers for nothing whilst science publishers make a lot of money. It has nothing to do with chalk or emphysema. http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2803%2913292...
Can you try again as what you are saying could be important to know about, if it is true.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
Petrol is classed as a carcinogen as benzene content is >0.1% (I think UK petrol is now 1% by weight max?, it used to be >5%).
Benzene is carcinogenic by both inhalation and oral pathways (dermal contact typically taken to be less important than oral/inhalation, though I wouldn't wash my hands in it!).
You don't want to be inhaling petrol fumes all day long.....
> Petrol is carcinogenic. Petrol is carcinogenic if you ingest the bloody stuff. Yet we all fill our car with it regularly, it gets splashed on our hands and we inhale vapours. You need a sense of perspective here!
Petrol is classed as a carcinogen as benzene content is >0.1% (I think UK petrol is now 1% by weight max?, it used to be >5%).
Benzene is carcinogenic by both inhalation and oral pathways (dermal contact typically taken to be less important than oral/inhalation, though I wouldn't wash my hands in it!).
You don't want to be inhaling petrol fumes all day long.....
One possible issue at indoor walls are PM10 and PM2.5 dust fractions.
I wonder if any walls have done any measurements. Especially in relation to their staff.
In reply to adstapleton: Climbing chalk is magnesium carbonate
Magnesium carbonate itself is not toxic. However, its excessive use may cause central nervous system depression and cardiac disturbances.[5] It is slightly hazardous in case of skin and eye contact and may cause respiratory and digestive tract irritation in case of ingestion or inhalation.
NB This is from Wikipedia, so take it with a pinch os salt (or chalk!)
BR
Magnesium carbonate itself is not toxic. However, its excessive use may cause central nervous system depression and cardiac disturbances.[5] It is slightly hazardous in case of skin and eye contact and may cause respiratory and digestive tract irritation in case of ingestion or inhalation.
NB This is from Wikipedia, so take it with a pinch os salt (or chalk!)
BR
In reply to blackreaver:
Well it is used in laxatives and antacids
> Magnesium carbonate..... may cause ... digestive tract irritation
Well it is used in laxatives and antacids
In reply to ChrisJD: I know.
What I was trying to suggest to the OP by talking about petrol as a carcinogen is that we all spend a lot of time near it. I was trying to get him to realise that you can spend a lot of time near carcinogens without getting any particular harm as long as you are not inundated in the stuff. So I was triyng to allay the worries about getting "hand cancer" (?).
Clearly inhaling petrol fumes all day long or inhaling climbing chalk all day long is going to increase the risk......
What I was trying to suggest to the OP by talking about petrol as a carcinogen is that we all spend a lot of time near it. I was trying to get him to realise that you can spend a lot of time near carcinogens without getting any particular harm as long as you are not inundated in the stuff. So I was triyng to allay the worries about getting "hand cancer" (?).
Clearly inhaling petrol fumes all day long or inhaling climbing chalk all day long is going to increase the risk......
In reply to adstapleton: god i hope this was a wind up. we are taking part in a sport where we regularly climb on small insignificant holds many metres above ground with a high risk of damaging yourself if you fall. For gods sake stop all the wringing of hands and just enjoy the bloody climbing.
enjoy
enjoy
In reply to shaun stephens:
And than imagine being prematurely unable to climb any cliffs due to inhaling all that chalk used indoors for psychological reasons...
would be kind of daft or?
I guesss it's worth looking into the longterm effects and some walls could be significantly improved with a venting system (I think Plas-Y-Brenin have one)
> we are taking part in a sport where we regularly climb on small insignificant holds many metres above ground with a high risk of damaging yourself if you fall.
And than imagine being prematurely unable to climb any cliffs due to inhaling all that chalk used indoors for psychological reasons...
would be kind of daft or?
I guesss it's worth looking into the longterm effects and some walls could be significantly improved with a venting system (I think Plas-Y-Brenin have one)
In truth the original post was a semi piss take of a question, however I do think there should be some concern about the health effects of climbing chalk.
The interesting thing is the amount of interest the original question has sparked, and some very intersting thoughts have been raised I feel, in particular regarding particulate contamination of the air in climbing gyms: my gym is quite open but very dusty, no doubt smaller facilities will have more contaminated air, and given the amount of breathing that gets done thrutching one's way up a route/problem this could be a real issue.
Thanks for all the genuine interest and informative replies, thanks also for the less helpful replies which actually helped keep the thread up there.
The interesting thing is the amount of interest the original question has sparked, and some very intersting thoughts have been raised I feel, in particular regarding particulate contamination of the air in climbing gyms: my gym is quite open but very dusty, no doubt smaller facilities will have more contaminated air, and given the amount of breathing that gets done thrutching one's way up a route/problem this could be a real issue.
Thanks for all the genuine interest and informative replies, thanks also for the less helpful replies which actually helped keep the thread up there.
In reply to nepsoi999:
I'm a formulation chemist and I've got a fair bit of experience of handling various grades of silica (incidentally they are used in some dietary supplements) and if superchalk doesn't contain silica I'll eat my beanie.
I'm a formulation chemist and I've got a fair bit of experience of handling various grades of silica (incidentally they are used in some dietary supplements) and if superchalk doesn't contain silica I'll eat my beanie.
In reply to adstapleton:
I can't say I even use it. Never owned any as not really required, and when I did lead course at Squamish they were against over chalking too.
People tend to over chalk anyway, and I wonder how many use it just for the sake of using it? Just a thought.
I don't really get sweaty hands either though.
I can't say I even use it. Never owned any as not really required, and when I did lead course at Squamish they were against over chalking too.
People tend to over chalk anyway, and I wonder how many use it just for the sake of using it? Just a thought.
I don't really get sweaty hands either though.
In reply to Kid Spatula:
Are you sure you're an oncology specialist?
Calling people retarded, is discrimination is it not? You ought to really be ashamed of yourself, and for an alleged oncology specialist, you really ought to know better.
Are you sure you're an oncology specialist?
Calling people retarded, is discrimination is it not? You ought to really be ashamed of yourself, and for an alleged oncology specialist, you really ought to know better.
In reply to PaleMan: Chalk cliffs are calcium carbonate aren't they? Not magnesium carbonate.
In reply to adstapleton: everything and anything is dangerous just start to enjoy your life and stop worrying about maybe's
In reply to Tyroneslater:
I do physics at college and we were discussing radiation levels of granite. he reckons that climbing on the rock would be safe enough but problems might arise if one was to live close to some ( been my dream for a while (- does anybody have any information on other types of rock such as limestone and gritstone? - especially gritstone as I am lucky enough to live close to some. I do know it is very old.
I do physics at college and we were discussing radiation levels of granite. he reckons that climbing on the rock would be safe enough but problems might arise if one was to live close to some ( been my dream for a while (- does anybody have any information on other types of rock such as limestone and gritstone? - especially gritstone as I am lucky enough to live close to some. I do know it is very old.
In reply to Tyroneslater: This is especially true in the south-west background radiation levels are some of the highest in the world!
In reply to shaun stephens:
Really? I've fallen loads of times and never hurt myself as a result, nor has any of the numerous partners I've climbed with in all that time. I'd say the risk of damaging yourself in a climbing fall is in fact very small.
(He said, knocking vigorously on wood.)
> we are taking part in a sport where we regularly climb on small insignificant holds many metres above ground with a high risk of damaging yourself if you fall.
Really? I've fallen loads of times and never hurt myself as a result, nor has any of the numerous partners I've climbed with in all that time. I'd say the risk of damaging yourself in a climbing fall is in fact very small.
(He said, knocking vigorously on wood.)
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