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Can anyone offer some advice as to the best / safest way of lowering off from the top of a bolted route ? I plan to have a go at some sport routes for the first time soon, and am a bit confused. Some people seem to use a daisy-chain clipped to one bolt, others seem to favour a sling threaded through both bolts. I can see the advantage of the sling method, in that you are relying on two bolts rather than one, but having said that, you are trusting to one bolt all the way up the climb, as you clip in to each one. And you are trusting that to potentially take a fall, whereas at the top it is only holding static weight. Any opinions would be much appreciated.
In reply to El Cap:
Have a look at this
http://www.petzl.com/statique/sport/ENG/tech/html/rappel3.html
then use common sense to apply it to any other situation you come across
It is always possible to do it and stay attached to the rope
Have a look at this
http://www.petzl.com/statique/sport/ENG/tech/html/rappel3.html
then use common sense to apply it to any other situation you come across
It is always possible to do it and stay attached to the rope
In reply to El Cap:
A daisychain clipped to one bolt - if the bolt or the daisychain fail your going to fall.
A sling threaded through both bolts - if the sling fails your going to fall.
Clip one quickdraw into each bolt (with gates opposed) and then clip a third one to both of these and then to you harness (forming a Y shape). Pull up a length of rope and tie an overhand figure of eight on the bight in it and clip this to your belay loop with a screwgate. Untie the end of the rope from your harness, thread it through both bolts, re-tie to harness. Check knots, etc. and then dismantle in reverse order.
With this method, both bolts need to fail.
Well that's how I do it anyway.
MarkH
A daisychain clipped to one bolt - if the bolt or the daisychain fail your going to fall.
A sling threaded through both bolts - if the sling fails your going to fall.
Clip one quickdraw into each bolt (with gates opposed) and then clip a third one to both of these and then to you harness (forming a Y shape). Pull up a length of rope and tie an overhand figure of eight on the bight in it and clip this to your belay loop with a screwgate. Untie the end of the rope from your harness, thread it through both bolts, re-tie to harness. Check knots, etc. and then dismantle in reverse order.
With this method, both bolts need to fail.
Well that's how I do it anyway.
MarkH
In reply to El Cap: the lower off at most sports routes that i hav climbed (spain) were specific lower off points ie two bolts interconnected with big chain and in the middle of the chain was an even bigger metal ring. Made self safe with short sling to ring, threaded loop of climbing rope thru ring, tied figure 8 to harness, untied original fig 8, unclip sling and away u go
In reply to El Cap:
the method I was shown (by an MIA) is to clip both bolts with a quickdraw to each and back to your belay loop. I would always use both bolts whether using a QD or dasiy chain/sling - it just seems daft not to if they are there.
the method I was shown (by an MIA) is to clip both bolts with a quickdraw to each and back to your belay loop. I would always use both bolts whether using a QD or dasiy chain/sling - it just seems daft not to if they are there.
In reply to MarkH: Yuk! if i ever came across two, then i would always use both... why wouldn't u??
In reply to MarkH:
If I understand you correctly, the stem of the quickdraw "Y" which goes to your belay loop still means you are placing reliance on a single bit of kit (ie a single quickdraw) AND this is likely to include 2 snapgates as opposed to screwgates!
Or have I got this wrong??
If I understand you correctly, the stem of the quickdraw "Y" which goes to your belay loop still means you are placing reliance on a single bit of kit (ie a single quickdraw) AND this is likely to include 2 snapgates as opposed to screwgates!
Or have I got this wrong??
In reply to El Cap:
I tend to tie off a long sling with an overhand knot to form a y shape, just as if you were using it to equalize two anchors on a belay. The bottom stem is larksfooted to my belay loop, and the two other ends each have a screwcate attached, and clipped out of the way on my harness. That way, at the top, I just clip a screwgate into each bolt and I'm safe to sort out the loweroff. With this system, either bolt can fail and you'll be safe.
I tend to tie off a long sling with an overhand knot to form a y shape, just as if you were using it to equalize two anchors on a belay. The bottom stem is larksfooted to my belay loop, and the two other ends each have a screwcate attached, and clipped out of the way on my harness. That way, at the top, I just clip a screwgate into each bolt and I'm safe to sort out the loweroff. With this system, either bolt can fail and you'll be safe.
In reply to El Cap: The method I use is as follows :
take two sings ( same length ) and cowstail them to your harness ( through all the loops) at the front, either side of the belay loop, on the end of each sling have a small screwgate Krab ( leave these unscrewed and attach them to your gearloops, left and right ), this way, they are out of the way whilst you are climbing.
When you arrive at the lower off you have each sling ready to go, no faffing clipping at both ends!, clip each into the two bolts ( this time doing them up ! ), check , then rethread the rope etc, tie back on and lower off.
This way you are protected by both bolts, theres no chance of fumbling a quickdraw to the floor as you clip, nothing can go wrong!, especially good if the lower off is a tricky clip.
I have used this system for ages now and find its the quickest / safest, but there is of course more than one way to skin a cat!.
take two sings ( same length ) and cowstail them to your harness ( through all the loops) at the front, either side of the belay loop, on the end of each sling have a small screwgate Krab ( leave these unscrewed and attach them to your gearloops, left and right ), this way, they are out of the way whilst you are climbing.
When you arrive at the lower off you have each sling ready to go, no faffing clipping at both ends!, clip each into the two bolts ( this time doing them up ! ), check , then rethread the rope etc, tie back on and lower off.
This way you are protected by both bolts, theres no chance of fumbling a quickdraw to the floor as you clip, nothing can go wrong!, especially good if the lower off is a tricky clip.
I have used this system for ages now and find its the quickest / safest, but there is of course more than one way to skin a cat!.
In reply to Monkey Boy:
At Portland sometimes there isn't enough room in the staple to clip a carabiner and also thread your rope through. So what I got into the habit of doing was, rather than use quick draws, keeping a single 5/6mm 4' or so strand of perlon (w. loops at each ends)always girth hitched to my harness.
At the anchors I thread the end through both staples and attach it back to my belay loop w/ a locker. Then pull up a bight and tie a figure eight, attach to belay loop w/ locker, untie original eight, feed through, retie, check, unclip perlon and lower, as above.
At Portland sometimes there isn't enough room in the staple to clip a carabiner and also thread your rope through. So what I got into the habit of doing was, rather than use quick draws, keeping a single 5/6mm 4' or so strand of perlon (w. loops at each ends)always girth hitched to my harness.
At the anchors I thread the end through both staples and attach it back to my belay loop w/ a locker. Then pull up a bight and tie a figure eight, attach to belay loop w/ locker, untie original eight, feed through, retie, check, unclip perlon and lower, as above.
In reply to James Jackson: This has to be the best way James, I can't think of a better one?
In reply to all:
I have to say I'm gobsmacked at how complicated you all seem to make something so easy.
Have a look at my post above.
You don't need to carry any extra gear at all.
I have to say I'm gobsmacked at how complicated you all seem to make something so easy.
Have a look at my post above.
You don't need to carry any extra gear at all.
In reply to Carless: but if you were daft enough to drop your last quickdraw.....then you would be shagged!... dont laugh, some friends on a three pitcher managed to throw their belay devices down the cliff, what a tizz they got into!
In reply to Carless:
Read the thread - staples on Portland have insufficient room to follow the Petzl method.
As a number of people have said, clip/sling to each belay bolt independently, and do the untie/retie bit, remembering to attach a lower part of the rope to your belay loop before untying (incase you drop it).
Read the thread - staples on Portland have insufficient room to follow the Petzl method.
As a number of people have said, clip/sling to each belay bolt independently, and do the untie/retie bit, remembering to attach a lower part of the rope to your belay loop before untying (incase you drop it).
In reply to Carless:
in addition to the above, even on the continent, few belays are like the ideal from the petzl site.
The times that one quickdraw would be long enough or enable you to have a good foot stance are minimal in my experience. The sling solution covers all eventualities that a single quickdraw would leave you in trouble in.
in addition to the above, even on the continent, few belays are like the ideal from the petzl site.
The times that one quickdraw would be long enough or enable you to have a good foot stance are minimal in my experience. The sling solution covers all eventualities that a single quickdraw would leave you in trouble in.
In reply to El Cap:
If you have lead the route, you really only need to clip to one bolt as you are still protected by all the runners below you.
If you have lead the route, you really only need to clip to one bolt as you are still protected by all the runners below you.
In reply to richardh: I agree, quite a lot of lower - offs don't even have a chain, just two bolts.
In reply to thrushie:
and with a bit of practice you can make it look real good.
<needs both hands so a ledge is req'd>
undo both grabs from gear loops at same time, let them swing round your body and them catch them (first attempt) making sure that they're facing the right way. Then clip 'em
you can practice at home in front of a mirror like a small girl with two cap guns.
vv stylish
and with a bit of practice you can make it look real good.
<needs both hands so a ledge is req'd>
undo both grabs from gear loops at same time, let them swing round your body and them catch them (first attempt) making sure that they're facing the right way. Then clip 'em
you can practice at home in front of a mirror like a small girl with two cap guns.
vv stylish
In reply to El Cap:
To all of you, many thanks for the information. I always like to err on the side of caution (my partner - jokingly - says I'm over cautious), so I like the methods which give a double backup. It's Portland we plan to go to, so the information about the lack of space if very useful. I'll be having a go at the various methods at the local wall this week.
To all of you, many thanks for the information. I always like to err on the side of caution (my partner - jokingly - says I'm over cautious), so I like the methods which give a double backup. It's Portland we plan to go to, so the information about the lack of space if very useful. I'll be having a go at the various methods at the local wall this week.
In reply to James Jackson:
the method I and most people I know use is to stay attached to the rope at all times, a lot of people don't!!! after clipping into the belay with a quickdraw and sling, sit on it and either push a bight of rope rope through all lower off anchors (if staples) tie a figure of eight and clip back into harness with screw gate before undoing original tie in, or clip the bight to harness before threading, untie and thread then retie (as posted above). Both are safe and saves dropping the rope. I don't usually feel the need to clip into both lower off whilst threading as both the lower off and the bolts below would have to fail to have a serious accident, you could take quite a big fall though if the anchor failed just as you had pulled up the bight of rope.
the method I and most people I know use is to stay attached to the rope at all times, a lot of people don't!!! after clipping into the belay with a quickdraw and sling, sit on it and either push a bight of rope rope through all lower off anchors (if staples) tie a figure of eight and clip back into harness with screw gate before undoing original tie in, or clip the bight to harness before threading, untie and thread then retie (as posted above). Both are safe and saves dropping the rope. I don't usually feel the need to clip into both lower off whilst threading as both the lower off and the bolts below would have to fail to have a serious accident, you could take quite a big fall though if the anchor failed just as you had pulled up the bight of rope.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Not if you thread a bite of rope through the lower off(s), fig 8 on the bite onto screwgate on harness, then untie end.
Not if you thread a bite of rope through the lower off(s), fig 8 on the bite onto screwgate on harness, then untie end.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Hehe! So that's who has been supplying all my quickdraws for the last few years.
Hehe! So that's who has been supplying all my quickdraws for the last few years.
In reply to El Cap:
I take the view that you should:
a) always be tied into the rope.
b) have at least two points of attachment to the system.
My system is:
Get to lower-off and clip a 1.2m sling (with a screwgate either end) between harness and one bolt (the lower one if there are two). A daisy chain of quick-draws clips between harness and the other bolt.
Pull up a bight of rope and pass this through (both) bolts.
Tie a figure of eight knot in this bight and attach to belay point of harness with a screwgate.
Untie the end of the rope and pull through the bolts.
Retie the end of the rope into the harness. (You may not need to do this if it is a short pitch but if you have a 60m rope and the pitch is 30m....)
Undo the knot on the bight of rope.
Haul up on the belay and get your second to take in so that you can feel the rope pulling at your harness.
Unclip from the bolts and lower away.
The advantages of this are that, 1. at the point at which you untie from the end of the rope you are still tied in but the rope is already through the belay and attached back to your harness. 2. While you are doing the re-threading, you have three other attachment points to the system.
Things like this are a bit difficult to describe in text only so have a play around at low level if possible.
HTH
Bob
I take the view that you should:
a) always be tied into the rope.
b) have at least two points of attachment to the system.
My system is:
Get to lower-off and clip a 1.2m sling (with a screwgate either end) between harness and one bolt (the lower one if there are two). A daisy chain of quick-draws clips between harness and the other bolt.
Pull up a bight of rope and pass this through (both) bolts.
Tie a figure of eight knot in this bight and attach to belay point of harness with a screwgate.
Untie the end of the rope and pull through the bolts.
Retie the end of the rope into the harness. (You may not need to do this if it is a short pitch but if you have a 60m rope and the pitch is 30m....)
Undo the knot on the bight of rope.
Haul up on the belay and get your second to take in so that you can feel the rope pulling at your harness.
Unclip from the bolts and lower away.
The advantages of this are that, 1. at the point at which you untie from the end of the rope you are still tied in but the rope is already through the belay and attached back to your harness. 2. While you are doing the re-threading, you have three other attachment points to the system.
Things like this are a bit difficult to describe in text only so have a play around at low level if possible.
HTH
Bob
In reply to steve taylor:
But that is the exception and except for this circumstances or where you are going to need every last metre of your rope to get to the ground the Petzl method seems to me to be much the best in that you are never untied from the rope (and there is no oppurtuntity for the chroncially hamfisted, such as myself, to drop the rope).
> (In reply to Carless)
>
> Read the thread - staples on Portland have insufficient room to follow the Petzl method.
>
>
> Read the thread - staples on Portland have insufficient room to follow the Petzl method.
>
But that is the exception and except for this circumstances or where you are going to need every last metre of your rope to get to the ground the Petzl method seems to me to be much the best in that you are never untied from the rope (and there is no oppurtuntity for the chroncially hamfisted, such as myself, to drop the rope).
In reply to Bob:
Heh? You need to retie as the end is the bit that has been threaded through the bolts!
Unless I have misunderstood you.
>
> Retie the end of the rope into the harness. (You may not need to do this if it is a short pitch but if you have a 60m rope and the pitch is 30m....)
>
> Retie the end of the rope into the harness. (You may not need to do this if it is a short pitch but if you have a 60m rope and the pitch is 30m....)
>
Heh? You need to retie as the end is the bit that has been threaded through the bolts!
Unless I have misunderstood you.
In reply to Punter Hitch:
ahh I see you have pushed a bight through the bolts!
you are assuming all bolts are going to be big enough for kran and a dbl thickness of rope.
I ,clip in to anchors,tie a FOE in a bight first, clip in, untie,feed thru, retie, unclip, lower
ahh I see you have pushed a bight through the bolts!
you are assuming all bolts are going to be big enough for kran and a dbl thickness of rope.
I ,clip in to anchors,tie a FOE in a bight first, clip in, untie,feed thru, retie, unclip, lower
In reply to El Cap:
Umpteenth variation on the theme:
One sling from harness to one bolt.
One quick draw in other bolt.
Clip the rope into the quick draw - so you now have one static belay and one running belay.
then either -
1. thread a bight of the rope through the bolts if there's room, tie a fig 8 on a bight and clip into harness with screwgate. Untie and lower off.
or 2. pull some rope through the running belay, tie a fig. 8 on a bight and clip into harness with a screwgate. Untie, thread the bolts or chain and either retie properly or into another screwgate.
If there's a chain I just clip the sling into the chain or ring if there is one, and thread the chain as above. However, beware if in Europe on a 50m rope as the slack you acquire may be significant.
Umpteenth variation on the theme:
One sling from harness to one bolt.
One quick draw in other bolt.
Clip the rope into the quick draw - so you now have one static belay and one running belay.
then either -
1. thread a bight of the rope through the bolts if there's room, tie a fig 8 on a bight and clip into harness with screwgate. Untie and lower off.
or 2. pull some rope through the running belay, tie a fig. 8 on a bight and clip into harness with a screwgate. Untie, thread the bolts or chain and either retie properly or into another screwgate.
If there's a chain I just clip the sling into the chain or ring if there is one, and thread the chain as above. However, beware if in Europe on a 50m rope as the slack you acquire may be significant.
In reply to El Cap:
Ideally you shouldn't be lowering off the in situ gear - can damage rope and gear. Leader rigs a backed-up screwgate to run the rope through (so no need to untie). Second takes it apart and RAPS off the in situ stuff.
Ideally you shouldn't be lowering off the in situ gear - can damage rope and gear. Leader rigs a backed-up screwgate to run the rope through (so no need to untie). Second takes it apart and RAPS off the in situ stuff.
In reply to Thrutch Boy:
Surely dancing around with a ghetto blaster is dangerous ?
> RAPS off the in situ stuff.
Surely dancing around with a ghetto blaster is dangerous ?
In reply to GrahamD:
Correct, so standard practice is to get second to do human beat box.
>
> Surely dancing around with a ghetto blaster is dangerous ?
> Surely dancing around with a ghetto blaster is dangerous ?
Correct, so standard practice is to get second to do human beat box.
In reply to Punter Hitch:
Usually they are but if they aren't then as you say clip in to a figure of eight on the bight with a screwgate, then untie; thread the rope and tie back on.
Bob
Usually they are but if they aren't then as you say clip in to a figure of eight on the bight with a screwgate, then untie; thread the rope and tie back on.
Bob
In reply to all:
This is getting great. Obviously common sense is not in as great a supply as I had thought.
I hope you all don't mind if I carry on carrying no extra gear, and some of you can carry on taking the kitchen sink.
Each to their own.
I'm amazed that the lower-offs at Portland are not big enough for a krab and a rope.
This is getting great. Obviously common sense is not in as great a supply as I had thought.
I hope you all don't mind if I carry on carrying no extra gear, and some of you can carry on taking the kitchen sink.
Each to their own.
I'm amazed that the lower-offs at Portland are not big enough for a krab and a rope.
In reply to Carless:
I'm amazed I bother replying to someone who doesn't appear to actually read the posts on a thread.
I'm amazed I bother replying to someone who doesn't appear to actually read the posts on a thread.
In reply to Carless:
Some of the lower-offs on Portland are big enough to get a bight of rope through as well as a crab, others are not.
What I find with most of the routes, is that there is no comfortable/easy place to stand/hang using only one quickdraw as in the Petzl site. As the lower-offs are two seperate staples, I clip both, as I said at the start of the thread.
One other thing to remember is that the staples generally used on Portland are not designed to take an outwards pull (perpendicular to the rock) as they are only held in with resin. I was talking to Mike Robertson a couple of years ago and he said that there have been cases of staples pulling out when people have been pushing outwards with their feet to get a better look at the next moves, etc. By using a sling, or 3 quickdraws in a Y, you lower your weight in relation to the staples and therefore exert a greater downwards force on them and a lesser outward force.
MarkH
Some of the lower-offs on Portland are big enough to get a bight of rope through as well as a crab, others are not.
What I find with most of the routes, is that there is no comfortable/easy place to stand/hang using only one quickdraw as in the Petzl site. As the lower-offs are two seperate staples, I clip both, as I said at the start of the thread.
One other thing to remember is that the staples generally used on Portland are not designed to take an outwards pull (perpendicular to the rock) as they are only held in with resin. I was talking to Mike Robertson a couple of years ago and he said that there have been cases of staples pulling out when people have been pushing outwards with their feet to get a better look at the next moves, etc. By using a sling, or 3 quickdraws in a Y, you lower your weight in relation to the staples and therefore exert a greater downwards force on them and a lesser outward force.
MarkH
In reply to richardh:
I'm intrigued by your assumption that I haven't read the posts.
I couldn't give a monkey's whether it's one bolt, 2 bolts, chain, no chain, whatever - with some common sense the method of always staying attached to the rope always works and is by definition the safest because you are still belayed from below.
All I'm saying is try to keep it as simple as possible. Overcomplicating it leads to more possibilites for mistakes.
The only time you are stuffed is trying to retreat from a single ring-bolt that you cannot get a krab & the rope through or trying to retreat from Petzl style bolt - then you have to fart about and possibly sacrifice some gear (I carry a 20cm bit of perlon for this.
I'm intrigued by your assumption that I haven't read the posts.
I couldn't give a monkey's whether it's one bolt, 2 bolts, chain, no chain, whatever - with some common sense the method of always staying attached to the rope always works and is by definition the safest because you are still belayed from below.
All I'm saying is try to keep it as simple as possible. Overcomplicating it leads to more possibilites for mistakes.
The only time you are stuffed is trying to retreat from a single ring-bolt that you cannot get a krab & the rope through or trying to retreat from Petzl style bolt - then you have to fart about and possibly sacrifice some gear (I carry a 20cm bit of perlon for this.
In reply to Carless:
read maybe, taken on board, it seems not, maybe my last post was a touch harsh.
I'm not disputing the stay attached to the rope part.
Many belays aren't at the right level for a single quickdraw solution. You advocate never taking up any extra kit,
so how are you going to manage when stood on a ledge with the belay at head height without all the weight of an extra sling?
How are you going to attach yourself to a belay hanging off a crimp or a sidepull on marginal footholds with the belay in front of your face, without extender, sling or a chain of 4 quickdraws
use a quickdraw? at the top of a hardish sport route? Air Miles ahoy...
read maybe, taken on board, it seems not, maybe my last post was a touch harsh.
I'm not disputing the stay attached to the rope part.
Many belays aren't at the right level for a single quickdraw solution. You advocate never taking up any extra kit,
so how are you going to manage when stood on a ledge with the belay at head height without all the weight of an extra sling?
How are you going to attach yourself to a belay hanging off a crimp or a sidepull on marginal footholds with the belay in front of your face, without extender, sling or a chain of 4 quickdraws
use a quickdraw? at the top of a hardish sport route? Air Miles ahoy...
In reply to richardh:
Let's agree to differ - all I said was check the Petzl site and adapt it to suit the circumstances.
Please clear one thing up for me tho'
Are you saying that you don't use the lower-off as the last runner on a sport route? ie. clip a draw in and the rope as soon as possible - like any other bolt - so that you are protected for the last move
and then sort out lowering off.
If not, then presumably you're the one getting extra air miles
Let's agree to differ - all I said was check the Petzl site and adapt it to suit the circumstances.
Please clear one thing up for me tho'
Are you saying that you don't use the lower-off as the last runner on a sport route? ie. clip a draw in and the rope as soon as possible - like any other bolt - so that you are protected for the last move
and then sort out lowering off.
If not, then presumably you're the one getting extra air miles
In reply to Carless:
its all getting a bit butch round here
I can smell the testosterone from the coffee amchine
its all getting a bit butch round here
I can smell the testosterone from the coffee amchine
In reply to Drew:
Indeed, the first time I've bitten on a newsgroup in a long long time.
In reply to Carless:
I do, if possible, clip a draw and rope into the lower off as priority yes.
Indeed, the first time I've bitten on a newsgroup in a long long time.
In reply to Carless:
I do, if possible, clip a draw and rope into the lower off as priority yes.
In reply to richardh and Drew:
Nah - that wasn't an argument - I'm sure we could do a real argument if we tried.
Sorry, if it came across as such. I'm just slightly anti people saying you *have* to have a sling (or more) attached to your belay loop, but as I said above each to their own.
Best one I saw was sometime last year.
This kid (approx 15) had obviously been told that was *the way* to do it. So on arriving at the lower-off that had no decent ledge, he desperately tries to move up so he could clip his sling in, falls off and takes quite a long one (run out route). When I asked him why hadn't he just used the lower-off as a last runner, he said he had never been taught to do that.
Nah - that wasn't an argument - I'm sure we could do a real argument if we tried.
Sorry, if it came across as such. I'm just slightly anti people saying you *have* to have a sling (or more) attached to your belay loop, but as I said above each to their own.
Best one I saw was sometime last year.
This kid (approx 15) had obviously been told that was *the way* to do it. So on arriving at the lower-off that had no decent ledge, he desperately tries to move up so he could clip his sling in, falls off and takes quite a long one (run out route). When I asked him why hadn't he just used the lower-off as a last runner, he said he had never been taught to do that.
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