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Myself and the better half are going to the Peak District next month, I'd imagine as it'll by my first time we'll be climbing at stanage, Curba etc.
As above. What would you consider the essential sizes/range/ number of cams to take?
I understand that due to all the factors of location variety and that sort thing, it may not be easy too answer in a straight forward way. Sorry if it's a silly question and TIA
As above. What would you consider the essential sizes/range/ number of cams to take?
I understand that due to all the factors of location variety and that sort thing, it may not be easy too answer in a straight forward way. Sorry if it's a silly question and TIA
In reply to Voltemands: Anything from DMM 4CU from 1 to 3.5 will get used enough to warrant the costs incurred. In terms of how many. How much you willing to spend? DMM 4cu Sets are pretty cheap in sets of three and brilliant cams to use
In reply to Voltemands:
Voltemands - the minimum number is zero - many people have started this way. If you are starting out start with low grades and see how you get on.
Providing you have a range of sizes of protection eg rocks + hexentrics you'll be fine. Remember hexentrics go in two ways and can be used in horizontal cracks too. If you have money for one or two cams get say friend 1.5 and/ or two . Practice putting gear in before you start climbing.
good luck!
ian
Voltemands - the minimum number is zero - many people have started this way. If you are starting out start with low grades and see how you get on.
Providing you have a range of sizes of protection eg rocks + hexentrics you'll be fine. Remember hexentrics go in two ways and can be used in horizontal cracks too. If you have money for one or two cams get say friend 1.5 and/ or two . Practice putting gear in before you start climbing.
good luck!
ian
In reply to Voltemands:
What sort of grades are you looking at?
The short answer of course is that the minimum number of cams is none at all, even a punter like me managed without any for the first 10 years of my climbing life
What sort of grades are you looking at?
The short answer of course is that the minimum number of cams is none at all, even a punter like me managed without any for the first 10 years of my climbing life
In reply to iani:
No Friends on gritstone? Eeek!
I agree that it's possible to climb at Stanage with just nuts and hexes - but why would you if you can afford a few friends?
No Friends on gritstone? Eeek!
I agree that it's possible to climb at Stanage with just nuts and hexes - but why would you if you can afford a few friends?
In reply to Voltemands: You will be denied entry to the Peaks if you have less than 5 cams on your person...
1
In reply to Voltemands: 0 cams or maybe 4 number 4 dmm 4cu's or just rock up to stanage with 12 size 3's. in short it depends on the routes do you have a tick list, and how much gear per inch do you want to place?
with 1000's of routes you will find something for pretty much whatever variety you have racked on your harness. dont forget to bring a BD Camalot size 6..... just incase and maybe one or two Size 5 Big Bro's.
http://www.trango.com/protection/Big-Bros
with 1000's of routes you will find something for pretty much whatever variety you have racked on your harness. dont forget to bring a BD Camalot size 6..... just incase and maybe one or two Size 5 Big Bro's.
http://www.trango.com/protection/Big-Bros
In reply to mcdougal:
My reaction too. Many of my favourite routes are the rounded breaks types, so generally unprotected without cams. I've climbed with a few people who've never owned cams or didn't use to - but they were happy soloing up to about E2.
Obviously, how many you need depends entirely on what routes you choose to do. I rarely set off on a route without about 5 mid-sized cams (usually more). The hand-jam sized ones are the most useful.
> (In reply to iani)
>
>
> No Friends on gritstone? Eeek!
>
>
> No Friends on gritstone? Eeek!
My reaction too. Many of my favourite routes are the rounded breaks types, so generally unprotected without cams. I've climbed with a few people who've never owned cams or didn't use to - but they were happy soloing up to about E2.
Obviously, how many you need depends entirely on what routes you choose to do. I rarely set off on a route without about 5 mid-sized cams (usually more). The hand-jam sized ones are the most useful.
In reply to Voltemands: i find on gritstone that i usually only place cams...!
In reply to Voltemands: People used to climb without any cams at all. People using cams on 'easy' routes are trashing a lot of grit. Stick to hex's and tri cams.
In reply to mcdougal:
Because you would learn a lot about protection, and conserve the rock better. Like chalk, cams are not essential below E1, unless you are not very good.
> (In reply to iani)
>
>
> I agree that it's possible to climb at Stanage with just nuts and hexes - but why would you if you can afford a few friends?
>
>
> I agree that it's possible to climb at Stanage with just nuts and hexes - but why would you if you can afford a few friends?
Because you would learn a lot about protection, and conserve the rock better. Like chalk, cams are not essential below E1, unless you are not very good.
In reply to KTT:
But of course.....
I'd ignore the above if I were you
> (In reply to Voltemands) People used to climb without any cams at all. People using cams on 'easy' routes are trashing a lot of grit. Stick to hex's and tri cams.
But of course.....
I'd ignore the above if I were you
In reply to Fredt:
Lol, some really daft comments on this thread. Sanity from Jon Stewart again though.
> (In reply to mcdougal)
> [...]
>
> Because you would learn a lot about protection, and conserve the rock better. Like chalk, cams are not essential below E1, unless you are not very good.
> [...]
>
> Because you would learn a lot about protection, and conserve the rock better. Like chalk, cams are not essential below E1, unless you are not very good.
Lol, some really daft comments on this thread. Sanity from Jon Stewart again though.
In reply to Fredt:
And he could be awash with that feel-good buzz, and his friends and family would feel so much better, as he begins his rehab having decked-out on an unprotected route.
To the OP - buy as many cams as you can, use them where necessary and use chalk when your hands sweat.
> (In reply to mcdougal)
> [...]
>
> Because you would learn a lot about protection, and conserve the rock better. Like chalk, cams are not essential below E1, unless you are not very good.
> [...]
>
> Because you would learn a lot about protection, and conserve the rock better. Like chalk, cams are not essential below E1, unless you are not very good.
And he could be awash with that feel-good buzz, and his friends and family would feel so much better, as he begins his rehab having decked-out on an unprotected route.
To the OP - buy as many cams as you can, use them where necessary and use chalk when your hands sweat.
3
In reply to Voltemands:
How many will depend on venue and the routes you choose to do. It is quite easy to manage with no cams with careful route selection.
If you are only just starting and want cams, then look at Friends (or equivalent) 1,2,3 or 1.5 and 2.5
Also, at this time of year, it pays to be flexible concerning venue. Curbar and Stanage are fine venues but they are exposed so depending on weather can be miserable. Froggatt or Rivlin are worth considering if the wind is freezing over the edges.
How many will depend on venue and the routes you choose to do. It is quite easy to manage with no cams with careful route selection.
If you are only just starting and want cams, then look at Friends (or equivalent) 1,2,3 or 1.5 and 2.5
Also, at this time of year, it pays to be flexible concerning venue. Curbar and Stanage are fine venues but they are exposed so depending on weather can be miserable. Froggatt or Rivlin are worth considering if the wind is freezing over the edges.
In reply to Voltemands:
I'm not understanding people saying cams damage the rock more than nuts.
Granted; if you fall on a cam, it is more damaging, but how many people are taking regular trad falls?
Just placing gear, when you place a nut, you give it a sharp tug to make sur it's seated. All that force rubbing onto the rock. With a cam you just pop it in and give it a little wiggle. You can see the nut placements on FBD from the ground for gods sake!
To the OP- as many as you can afford but don't loose any sleep over not having any, you'll work something out. Clean your shoes before each route though. Dirty shoes will do more damage than any pro.
I'm not understanding people saying cams damage the rock more than nuts.
Granted; if you fall on a cam, it is more damaging, but how many people are taking regular trad falls?
Just placing gear, when you place a nut, you give it a sharp tug to make sur it's seated. All that force rubbing onto the rock. With a cam you just pop it in and give it a little wiggle. You can see the nut placements on FBD from the ground for gods sake!
To the OP- as many as you can afford but don't loose any sleep over not having any, you'll work something out. Clean your shoes before each route though. Dirty shoes will do more damage than any pro.
In reply to Dave 88: "Dirty shoes will do more damage than any pro."!!! Ever climbed at birchen (or any number more places)?!!
In reply to Dave 88:
There wouldn't be a problem if that's all that anyone did. But far too many will give a cam several strong tugs, just like they would with a nut.
> With a cam you just pop it in and give it a little wiggle.
There wouldn't be a problem if that's all that anyone did. But far too many will give a cam several strong tugs, just like they would with a nut.
In reply to Voltemands: I use 6 sized from a half to 4
In reply to Dave 88:
They really do. I've been climbing less than 10 years and in that time I've seen placements carved out of Stanage grit by cams, and I don't think it's by people falling on them. (I've also seen lots of holds broken off by people placing micro-wires and then falling off, but that is an entirely separate bugbear.)
But, as with chalk, while they damage the rock, it's totally unreasonable to expect climbers not to use them, so it's just something we have to put up with. I doubt very much you can 'educate' people to use them more 'responsibly'. Placing them without undue tugging or wiggling is something that comes with experience of using them, for which there isn't a shortcut. And I'm not sure that that's really what causes the damage; the movement of the rope is probably enough to make them scratch away at the placements.
The self-righteousness of people who think using cams and chalk is beneath them and that others should refrain from these vulgar practices ("unnecessary below E1 unless you're not very good", etc) is pretty laughable (is that "lolable" on the internet?).
> (In reply to Voltemands)
>
> I'm not understanding people saying cams damage the rock more than nuts.
>
> I'm not understanding people saying cams damage the rock more than nuts.
They really do. I've been climbing less than 10 years and in that time I've seen placements carved out of Stanage grit by cams, and I don't think it's by people falling on them. (I've also seen lots of holds broken off by people placing micro-wires and then falling off, but that is an entirely separate bugbear.)
But, as with chalk, while they damage the rock, it's totally unreasonable to expect climbers not to use them, so it's just something we have to put up with. I doubt very much you can 'educate' people to use them more 'responsibly'. Placing them without undue tugging or wiggling is something that comes with experience of using them, for which there isn't a shortcut. And I'm not sure that that's really what causes the damage; the movement of the rope is probably enough to make them scratch away at the placements.
The self-righteousness of people who think using cams and chalk is beneath them and that others should refrain from these vulgar practices ("unnecessary below E1 unless you're not very good", etc) is pretty laughable (is that "lolable" on the internet?).
In reply to Jon Stewart:
That's true. But on the other hand the OP asked how many cams are "essential". To which the answer is obviously "none". The majority of routes (IME) are protectable using just nuts and hexes, and people shouldn't think they're going to die if they don't have any cams.
> he self-righteousness of people who think using cams and chalk is beneath them and that others should refrain from these vulgar practices ("unnecessary below E1 unless you're not very good", etc) is pretty laughable
That's true. But on the other hand the OP asked how many cams are "essential". To which the answer is obviously "none". The majority of routes (IME) are protectable using just nuts and hexes, and people shouldn't think they're going to die if they don't have any cams.
In reply to Voltemands:
I started trad climbing without cams, on most grit routes there will be some passive pro, that said if you can pick up a set of tech friends (1,2,3/1.5,2.5,3.5 . discontinued) in cotswold or go-outdoors you wont be sorry and they are a bargain at the moment!!!
I started trad climbing without cams, on most grit routes there will be some passive pro, that said if you can pick up a set of tech friends (1,2,3/1.5,2.5,3.5 . discontinued) in cotswold or go-outdoors you wont be sorry and they are a bargain at the moment!!!
In reply to Toreador:
The answer to "how many climbing shoes are essential?" is also none, but that wouldn't be regarded as reasonable advice.
It really depends where the OP is going and what grade they're going to climb. An HVS leader venturing onto the classics of Stanage Popular without a few cams would have to expect to spend most of their day facing a deck-out. They could get away with it much more easily at one of the quarries, or indeed most other crags.
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
> [...]
>
> That's true. But on the other hand the OP asked how many cams are "essential". To which the answer is obviously "none".
> [...]
>
> That's true. But on the other hand the OP asked how many cams are "essential". To which the answer is obviously "none".
The answer to "how many climbing shoes are essential?" is also none, but that wouldn't be regarded as reasonable advice.
> The majority of routes (IME) are protectable using just nuts and hexes, and people shouldn't think they're going to die if they don't have any cams.
It really depends where the OP is going and what grade they're going to climb. An HVS leader venturing onto the classics of Stanage Popular without a few cams would have to expect to spend most of their day facing a deck-out. They could get away with it much more easily at one of the quarries, or indeed most other crags.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Whereas a VDiff leader doing the same could happily spend all day without placing a single cam.
Which is why I asked the OP what grade they were looking for
Whereas a VDiff leader doing the same could happily spend all day without placing a single cam.
Which is why I asked the OP what grade they were looking for
In reply to Toreador:
True, and given the question, it's probably more likely they'll be doing that rather than looking to tick off all the Stanage HVSs. I don't own any hexes and quite often don't bother taking any nuts on grit routes, so the idea of not having any cams is an anathema to me.
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> Whereas a VDiff leader doing the same could happily spend all day without placing a single cam.
> Which is why I asked the OP what grade they were looking for
>
> Whereas a VDiff leader doing the same could happily spend all day without placing a single cam.
> Which is why I asked the OP what grade they were looking for
True, and given the question, it's probably more likely they'll be doing that rather than looking to tick off all the Stanage HVSs. I don't own any hexes and quite often don't bother taking any nuts on grit routes, so the idea of not having any cams is an anathema to me.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
I wonder how we ever managed to climb HVS (and harder) routes before cams. I don't recall facing a ground fall at every turn!
Chris
>
> It really depends where the OP is going and what grade they're going to climb. An HVS leader venturing onto the classics of Stanage Popular without a few cams would have to expect to spend most of their day facing a deck-out. They could get away with it much more easily at one of the quarries, or indeed most other crags.
> It really depends where the OP is going and what grade they're going to climb. An HVS leader venturing onto the classics of Stanage Popular without a few cams would have to expect to spend most of their day facing a deck-out. They could get away with it much more easily at one of the quarries, or indeed most other crags.
I wonder how we ever managed to climb HVS (and harder) routes before cams. I don't recall facing a ground fall at every turn!
Chris
In reply to Voltemands:
You normally find some use for cams on most routes on grit but whether you need them really depends on how close to your limit you are climbing. Do you have time to fiddle awkward nuts into contrived placements or do you
need to ram in a cam and rest.
I'd take minimum three and preferably 6. As stated above, dmm 4cus are good and relatively cheap.
You normally find some use for cams on most routes on grit but whether you need them really depends on how close to your limit you are climbing. Do you have time to fiddle awkward nuts into contrived placements or do you
need to ram in a cam and rest.
I'd take minimum three and preferably 6. As stated above, dmm 4cus are good and relatively cheap.
In reply to Toreador: You're rather liable to get sandbagged, though, since the grades assume that you'll have at least a few cams and you do get a few routes even at VDiff that are a lot scarier without them...
In reply to Chris Craggs: People were much harder, back in the day, no?
Not sure how you'd climb
Right Hand Tower
Black Magic
The Flange
Meiosis
Cold Turkey
The Scoop
Retroversion
Good Friday
without cams and not be facing a groundfall. I accept that on some of these, hexes may have been fiddled into the breaks, but I don't know how many of these placements have been used in anger - I suspect not many. Those breaks are generally very open, and would have been much grottier back in those days.
Not sure how you'd climb
Right Hand Tower
Black Magic
The Flange
Meiosis
Cold Turkey
The Scoop
Retroversion
Good Friday
without cams and not be facing a groundfall. I accept that on some of these, hexes may have been fiddled into the breaks, but I don't know how many of these placements have been used in anger - I suspect not many. Those breaks are generally very open, and would have been much grottier back in those days.
In reply to Ramblin dave:
Are you sure? Wouldn't that mean there was a large scale downgrading of routes when cams became common?
> the grades assume that you'll have at least a few cams
Are you sure? Wouldn't that mean there was a large scale downgrading of routes when cams became common?
In reply to Ramblin dave: Is that really true? Most climbs I have looked at, on Stanage for example, the grades have remained much the same for many years. Indeed I can think of a few that have been given harder grades despite the fact that cams have now made them protectable.
Al
Al
In reply to Voltemands:
The minimum number is zero. It being perfectly possible to climb some routes using only nuts.
However, it is nice to have a selection of cams across all size ranges. The most commonly used for me are in the hand to fist crack size 2.5 - 3.5 (because that's what I like to climb), but smaller cams are also very useful sometimes.
If I could only have 4 cams, I'd go for friend sizes 0.5, 1.5, 2.5 and 3.5 or equivalent.
The minimum number is zero. It being perfectly possible to climb some routes using only nuts.
However, it is nice to have a selection of cams across all size ranges. The most commonly used for me are in the hand to fist crack size 2.5 - 3.5 (because that's what I like to climb), but smaller cams are also very useful sometimes.
If I could only have 4 cams, I'd go for friend sizes 0.5, 1.5, 2.5 and 3.5 or equivalent.
In reply to Jon Stewart: Plenty of your list are protectable with hexes (which you state you don't own) but it takes more experience to maximise hex usage and feel confident in their camming ability whereas a cam is much easier to use.
It's unfortunate that cams are trashing some placements but would we climb without them - not a chance Erosion is a part of climbing - we just have to live with it.
It's unfortunate that cams are trashing some placements but would we climb without them - not a chance Erosion is a part of climbing - we just have to live with it.
In reply to Voltemands: My troll radar is cr@p at the best of times, but the recent spate of "which end of the rope do you tie onto" style threads leads me to believe this is quite an elaborate troll which seems to have sparked some lively debate regardless.
To all those who have posted so far - given the various views of the number of cams you require in the Peak, how do you feel this compares to the number required to climb elsewhere i.e. the Lakes, Wales, Cornwall etc?
To all those who have posted so far - given the various views of the number of cams you require in the Peak, how do you feel this compares to the number required to climb elsewhere i.e. the Lakes, Wales, Cornwall etc?
In reply to Voltemands:
Minimum amount of cams for the Peak District?
What? All of it? That's one hell of a traverse, you'll need thousands!
Seriously, a 1, 2 and 3 DMM 4CU or WC Friends, or equivalent sizes in other makes, will get you started and supplement wires (and hexes?) to make most lower grade routes protectable.
Minimum amount of cams for the Peak District?
What? All of it? That's one hell of a traverse, you'll need thousands!
Seriously, a 1, 2 and 3 DMM 4CU or WC Friends, or equivalent sizes in other makes, will get you started and supplement wires (and hexes?) to make most lower grade routes protectable.
1
In reply to EeeByGum:
Fewer? I don't seem to use so many away from the Peak. But I am more of a nuts and hexes guy anyway simply because I couldn't afford cams when I started
Fewer? I don't seem to use so many away from the Peak. But I am more of a nuts and hexes guy anyway simply because I couldn't afford cams when I started
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Hexes, an array of regular nuts and a bit of cunning would get you up most of those. I would dare to say that most breaks that will take a cam will take a Hex, though not necessarily in the same spot.
That's just tripe!
Chris
> (In reply to Chris Craggs) People were much harder, back in the day, no?
>
> Not sure how you'd climb
>
> Right Hand Tower
> Black Magic
> The Flange
> Meiosis
> Cold Turkey
> The Scoop
> Retroversion
> Good Friday
>
> Not sure how you'd climb
>
> Right Hand Tower
> Black Magic
> The Flange
> Meiosis
> Cold Turkey
> The Scoop
> Retroversion
> Good Friday
Hexes, an array of regular nuts and a bit of cunning would get you up most of those. I would dare to say that most breaks that will take a cam will take a Hex, though not necessarily in the same spot.
>
> Those breaks are generally very open, and would have been much grottier back in those days.
> Those breaks are generally very open, and would have been much grottier back in those days.
That's just tripe!
Chris
In reply to Voltemands:
Maybe it depends on the experience you want. Does this sound worthwhile? -
"60ft of gritstone can mean so much. Let me warn you that here is a climb not to be toyed with, an unforgiving climb. Technically it is no harder than its grade - a goodish Severe - but in every other sense it will test you. Approach it with respect, for in those 60ft you will find no runner, no easy prop to the mind's balance. You and the rock will be weighed together and you must not be found wanting. ...... You have a friend in friction and an ally in the fine poise of your mind, the tightened bow of movement; throughout those 60ft these must suffice. Your peril is obvious: you must not miss these moves, one so much like the other though each is a taut and pleasurable momment, for the ground would be your landing" (Jim Perrin on Hargreaves Black Slab in Classic Rock)
If so, then you don't need any cams. On the other hand, if you want to reduce it to a bog-standard VS (and how on Earth did it get to that from an unprotected "goodish Severe"??) then you'll want a few biggish cams! (Or go for the halfway option like I did when I first led it and use a couple of hexes in opposition!)
Happy climbing!
Cheers
Andy
Maybe it depends on the experience you want. Does this sound worthwhile? -
"60ft of gritstone can mean so much. Let me warn you that here is a climb not to be toyed with, an unforgiving climb. Technically it is no harder than its grade - a goodish Severe - but in every other sense it will test you. Approach it with respect, for in those 60ft you will find no runner, no easy prop to the mind's balance. You and the rock will be weighed together and you must not be found wanting. ...... You have a friend in friction and an ally in the fine poise of your mind, the tightened bow of movement; throughout those 60ft these must suffice. Your peril is obvious: you must not miss these moves, one so much like the other though each is a taut and pleasurable momment, for the ground would be your landing" (Jim Perrin on Hargreaves Black Slab in Classic Rock)
If so, then you don't need any cams. On the other hand, if you want to reduce it to a bog-standard VS (and how on Earth did it get to that from an unprotected "goodish Severe"??) then you'll want a few biggish cams! (Or go for the halfway option like I did when I first led it and use a couple of hexes in opposition!)
Happy climbing!
Cheers
Andy
In reply to EeeByGum:
I definitely use more cams on grit than I do on volcanic rock or limestone. Granite is also a cam-hungry rock. For grit, I take all the cams I own to the bottom of the crag (from 00 to 3.5) and will select gear according to how the route looks - sometimes cams will be the only gear I place. On limestone, rhyolite etc, I will double up on nuts (at least) and maybe only carry 3 or 4 cams, beefing that number up if the route looks like it'll need more.
I started on grit with just a set of nuts, and after getting scared on virtually every route (Intermediate buttress at Stanage being one memorable occasion), I quit drinking and saved the money to spend on cams. It really does change the grit experience. Admittedly, I was crap at guessing what gear I needed from the ground, and there are plenty of routes where all you need is nuts, but there are plenty more where a set of cams makes things much more comfortable.
> To all those who have posted so far - given the various views of the number of cams you require in the Peak, how do you feel this compares to the number required to climb elsewhere i.e. the Lakes, Wales, Cornwall etc?
I definitely use more cams on grit than I do on volcanic rock or limestone. Granite is also a cam-hungry rock. For grit, I take all the cams I own to the bottom of the crag (from 00 to 3.5) and will select gear according to how the route looks - sometimes cams will be the only gear I place. On limestone, rhyolite etc, I will double up on nuts (at least) and maybe only carry 3 or 4 cams, beefing that number up if the route looks like it'll need more.
I started on grit with just a set of nuts, and after getting scared on virtually every route (Intermediate buttress at Stanage being one memorable occasion), I quit drinking and saved the money to spend on cams. It really does change the grit experience. Admittedly, I was crap at guessing what gear I needed from the ground, and there are plenty of routes where all you need is nuts, but there are plenty more where a set of cams makes things much more comfortable.
In reply to Voltemands: none, iv climbed up to E1 in the peak at various crags and never placed cams. my first trip up there i didnt even own hexes and still i managed 3 pebble slab which is hvs/e1 having only previously climbed up to VS. buy yourself a set of dmm tourque nuts (hexes)and you will get far more use out of them for the cost of 1 reasonable cam.
In reply to Andy Cairns:
Hargreaves original? Cam City
When I lead it last summer I left most of my big gear (cams, No4 torque nut, No11 camp hex etc) at the bottom of the crag beautiful climb tho' and I'll never forget it
> (In reply to Voltemands)
(Jim Perrin on Hargreaves Black Slab in Classic Rock)Hargreaves original? Cam City
When I lead it last summer I left most of my big gear (cams, No4 torque nut, No11 camp hex etc) at the bottom of the crag beautiful climb tho' and I'll never forget it
In reply to andic: When I did it, it was essentially a solo so I agree with Andy Cairns. No gear = Severe. Cams in every break = VS. How did that come about I wonder.
Al
Al
In reply to Voltemands:
Friends 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3 or equivalent are most useful
Friends 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3 or equivalent are most useful
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:
Easy, the old grade was wrong
Also, did it used to wander around rather more in order to find the easiest line? I think they used to belay on the left arete half way up.
> No gear = Severe. Cams in every break = VS. How did that come about I wonder.
Easy, the old grade was wrong
Also, did it used to wander around rather more in order to find the easiest line? I think they used to belay on the left arete half way up.
In reply to EeeByGum:
Having no hexes, I take a lot of cams on most big routes, but they're rarely as crucial as they are on grit - there's a lot more wire placements on volcanic rock, but Cornish granite would be necky without cams I think. I have never set off on a route in the Lakes, anywhere in Wales, or Cornwall without any nuts, but I do that regularly on grit. So I guess the number I would generally want is probably the same (say 4 or 5 minimum), but I'd be happier to set off without them elsewhere, or to have hexes instead. Using hexes in rounded breaks just isn't for me. Excessively faffy and not very good in my limited experience.
> To all those who have posted so far - given the various views of the number of cams you require in the Peak, how do you feel this compares to the number required to climb elsewhere i.e. the Lakes, Wales, Cornwall etc?
Having no hexes, I take a lot of cams on most big routes, but they're rarely as crucial as they are on grit - there's a lot more wire placements on volcanic rock, but Cornish granite would be necky without cams I think. I have never set off on a route in the Lakes, anywhere in Wales, or Cornwall without any nuts, but I do that regularly on grit. So I guess the number I would generally want is probably the same (say 4 or 5 minimum), but I'd be happier to set off without them elsewhere, or to have hexes instead. Using hexes in rounded breaks just isn't for me. Excessively faffy and not very good in my limited experience.
In reply to Toreador: I don't recall finding it hard at the time although in those days the degree of protection was not really a factor in grading as they were all unprotected. I also suspect that it was a Severe for far longer than it was a VS so we may have to wait and see. I agree however that by modern standards it probably is nearer to VS in comparison to it's peers.
Al
Al
Usually one more than you thought you'd need when racking up!
In reply to Jon Stewart:
ahahaha, wtf! I don't even own 5 cams!...
> Obviously, how many you need depends entirely on what routes you choose to do. I rarely set off on a route without about 5 mid-sized cams (usually more). The hand-jam sized ones are the most useful.
ahahaha, wtf! I don't even own 5 cams!...
In reply to Sam Marks: I genuinely don't know what you think's funny about taking 5+ cams on a route. Seems very normal to me, especially since I don't own any hexes. Have you climbed much at Stanage? The rock is characterised by lots of rounded breaks and on lots of routes that's the only gear you get.
I thought more people would be surprised by my habit of (sometimes) not taking nuts.
I thought more people would be surprised by my habit of (sometimes) not taking nuts.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
I'd say it's more like some breaks that will take a cam will take a hex - but a lot of those would be dodgy placements. Having said that, I've never been forced to rely on hexes alone so I dare say that I'm not as proficient at placing them as you.
Had the OP read the label where it says "Danger! Worms, Keep Closed" when he opened this can?
> I would dare to say that most breaks that will take a cam will take a Hex, though not necessarily in the same spot.
I'd say it's more like some breaks that will take a cam will take a hex - but a lot of those would be dodgy placements. Having said that, I've never been forced to rely on hexes alone so I dare say that I'm not as proficient at placing them as you.
Had the OP read the label where it says "Danger! Worms, Keep Closed" when he opened this can?
1
In reply to Sam Marks:
Then you're hardly typical. And you would if you had the funds.
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> [...]
>
> ahahaha, wtf! I don't even own 5 cams!...
>
> [...]
>
> ahahaha, wtf! I don't even own 5 cams!...
Then you're hardly typical. And you would if you had the funds.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Do you think that you're the best person to answer the question "what's the minimum number of cams you need?" given that you don't own hexes and climb without nuts?! Perhaps your replies would better answer "what's the maximum number of cams you need?"
Do you think that you're the best person to answer the question "what's the minimum number of cams you need?" given that you don't own hexes and climb without nuts?! Perhaps your replies would better answer "what's the maximum number of cams you need?"
1
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
In spring and summer, I climb in the peak most days, so I think I'm reasonably well placed to comment. If I'd said, "you don't need anything except double racks of cams" you might have a point.
But suggesting that if you want to enjoy climbing grit, you'll want a few mid-sized cams, is completely sensible. I suspect there is a hint of both 'hex-user self-righteousness' (something seemingly rife in the climbing community and as yet unexplained) and an inexperience on gritstone underlying your post.
In spring and summer, I climb in the peak most days, so I think I'm reasonably well placed to comment. If I'd said, "you don't need anything except double racks of cams" you might have a point.
But suggesting that if you want to enjoy climbing grit, you'll want a few mid-sized cams, is completely sensible. I suspect there is a hint of both 'hex-user self-righteousness' (something seemingly rife in the climbing community and as yet unexplained) and an inexperience on gritstone underlying your post.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
For balance, I own hexes and love them. However, I completely agree with Jon. On grit routes that rely on rounded breaks for gear or those with quite parallel cracks, I will often place only cams (I do usually take at least a few nuts for belays though!). Sure, you can fiddle in hexes some of the time, but cams make it quicker and more reliable meaning you reduce the pump. Grit is one of those rocks where cams make a huge difference to the feel of the route.
I climbed extensively on grit for 9 years and my cams were essential pieces of gear. Now I climb far more on limestone my cams are almost reduced to a luxury - hexes are lighter and well suited to limestone cracks.
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> Do you think that you're the best person to answer the question "what's the minimum number of cams you need?" given that you don't own hexes and climb without nuts?! Perhaps your replies would better answer "what's the maximum number of cams you need?"
>
> Do you think that you're the best person to answer the question "what's the minimum number of cams you need?" given that you don't own hexes and climb without nuts?! Perhaps your replies would better answer "what's the maximum number of cams you need?"
For balance, I own hexes and love them. However, I completely agree with Jon. On grit routes that rely on rounded breaks for gear or those with quite parallel cracks, I will often place only cams (I do usually take at least a few nuts for belays though!). Sure, you can fiddle in hexes some of the time, but cams make it quicker and more reliable meaning you reduce the pump. Grit is one of those rocks where cams make a huge difference to the feel of the route.
I climbed extensively on grit for 9 years and my cams were essential pieces of gear. Now I climb far more on limestone my cams are almost reduced to a luxury - hexes are lighter and well suited to limestone cracks.
In reply to EeeByGum:
I thought that this question may produce a huge variety of answers, and can appreciate it's a bit like asking how long is a piece of string. I'm still reletively new to all of this, but admittedly I realise now that I should have been a bit more specific in terms of my grade range (I guess Sev - VS. I get the impression that grit can be difficult for a lot of people initially so maybe more toward the sev end for a couple of days to adjust).
It's definietly not some elaborate troll. Though I did wonder how long it would take someone to propose the possibility!
There looks like many great posts, thanks for the answers/opinions all. I have a series of exams this week so don't really have time to go through it all yet but hopefully by friday I should have some time to have a look through. Thanks again.
> (In reply to Voltemands) My troll radar is cr@p at the best of times, but the recent spate of "which end of the rope do you tie onto" style threads leads me to believe this is quite an elaborate troll which seems to have sparked some lively debate regardless.
I thought that this question may produce a huge variety of answers, and can appreciate it's a bit like asking how long is a piece of string. I'm still reletively new to all of this, but admittedly I realise now that I should have been a bit more specific in terms of my grade range (I guess Sev - VS. I get the impression that grit can be difficult for a lot of people initially so maybe more toward the sev end for a couple of days to adjust).
It's definietly not some elaborate troll. Though I did wonder how long it would take someone to propose the possibility!
There looks like many great posts, thanks for the answers/opinions all. I have a series of exams this week so don't really have time to go through it all yet but hopefully by friday I should have some time to have a look through. Thanks again.
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:
"When I did it, it was essentially a solo so I agree with Andy Cairns. No gear = Severe. Cams in every break = VS. How did that come about I wonder."
A decision of the guidebook editors from the late 60s through to the early 80's not to downgrade routes en masse that became better protected with improvements in technology. Most modern grade creep pales into insignificance in comparison. What impresses me is just how good climbers were at the time with bold balance and offwidth climbing.
"When I did it, it was essentially a solo so I agree with Andy Cairns. No gear = Severe. Cams in every break = VS. How did that come about I wonder."
A decision of the guidebook editors from the late 60s through to the early 80's not to downgrade routes en masse that became better protected with improvements in technology. Most modern grade creep pales into insignificance in comparison. What impresses me is just how good climbers were at the time with bold balance and offwidth climbing.
You're all wrong. 2 complete sets of tricams, that's what you need!
The simplicity of hex placing combined with the price of cams, what's not to like?
The simplicity of hex placing combined with the price of cams, what's not to like?
In reply to Offwidth:
I don't believe there was any 'decision' (as in some kind of conspiracy to keep the grades elevated) by the editors of the day. As I have said before the improvements in gear were incremental over many years, meaning that gradually more and more climbers could tackle harder routes.
If you had downgrade for each improvement (nylon ropes/rock shoes/harnesses/nuts/chalk/belay plates/cams) everything would be several grade lower than they are now. It would have caused complete chaos in the guidebook world.
Chris
> (In reply to Al Randall)
>
> "When I did it, it was essentially a solo so I agree with Andy Cairns. No gear = Severe. Cams in every break = VS. How did that come about I wonder."
>
> A decision of the guidebook editors from the late 60s through to the early 80's not to downgrade routes en masse that became better protected with improvements in technology. Most modern grade creep pales into insignificance in comparison. What impresses me is just how good climbers were at the time with bold balance and offwidth climbing.
>
> "When I did it, it was essentially a solo so I agree with Andy Cairns. No gear = Severe. Cams in every break = VS. How did that come about I wonder."
>
> A decision of the guidebook editors from the late 60s through to the early 80's not to downgrade routes en masse that became better protected with improvements in technology. Most modern grade creep pales into insignificance in comparison. What impresses me is just how good climbers were at the time with bold balance and offwidth climbing.
I don't believe there was any 'decision' (as in some kind of conspiracy to keep the grades elevated) by the editors of the day. As I have said before the improvements in gear were incremental over many years, meaning that gradually more and more climbers could tackle harder routes.
If you had downgrade for each improvement (nylon ropes/rock shoes/harnesses/nuts/chalk/belay plates/cams) everything would be several grade lower than they are now. It would have caused complete chaos in the guidebook world.
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Agreed. Which is why all these complaints from old-timers about grade creep are (mainly) nonsense
> If you had downgrade for each improvement ... everything would be several grade lower than they are now. It would have caused complete chaos in the guidebook world.
Agreed. Which is why all these complaints from old-timers about grade creep are (mainly) nonsense
In reply to Chris Craggs: I always kind of assumed that there's been some regrading when cams became popular, because they didn't make everything a bit easier and safer like most other developments, but because they made some things a lot safer while not changing other things at all.
Otherwise you'd expect a lot of gritstone grades to be massively out of step with the rest of the country, because of the relative applicability of cams on different sorts of rock...
Otherwise you'd expect a lot of gritstone grades to be massively out of step with the rest of the country, because of the relative applicability of cams on different sorts of rock...
In reply to EeeByGum:
The first time I climbed in Wales (on rhyolite), we were getting a few funny looks in the car park as we packed a load of cams. In the end we probably placed one every 3 pitches and regretted carrying the weight around. Rhyolite seems to suit nuts far better than cams.
> To all those who have posted so far - given the various views of the number of cams you require in the Peak, how do you feel this compares to the number required to climb elsewhere i.e. the Lakes, Wales, Cornwall etc?
The first time I climbed in Wales (on rhyolite), we were getting a few funny looks in the car park as we packed a load of cams. In the end we probably placed one every 3 pitches and regretted carrying the weight around. Rhyolite seems to suit nuts far better than cams.
In reply to Voltemands: None!
In reply to Chris Craggs:
'Complete chaos': what a lovely thought for ensuring labels linked to what they say (so that 'very difficult' and 'severe', and 'extreme' still mean just that) and that adjectival grades meant the same thing for the routes affected and unnaffected by the changes in technology.
It's not a conspiricy either it's just a decision and it was clearly made. Irrespective of any other arguments it's where most post-war grade creep has occurred. I've no serious objection to the decision either, as long as it's applied uniformly, but I won't deny it happened. It may well have been easier to upgrade the climbs without cracks and breaks but that didn't always occur, especially in the low grades. The changes were also not that incremental in terms of an averege 5-10 year guidebook cycle (especially the arrival of cams) and in those guides a still unprotected climb would then be adjectivally harder and need upgradeding.
By the time I started getting interested in grit grades in the early 1990s the sub-VS stuff away from the classics was all over the place. Yet the grade logic of the same climbs from the early 60s guides and before made surprising sense to me in terms of the skill sets, equipment and protection of the time.
Now in the BMC grit guides the lower grade silliness has nearly all gone and it's also nearly all gone from Rockfax. I still think we would have gained if everything was two or three adjectival grades easier and UK tech grades still matched what was meant by font grades when they first came to the UK.
'Complete chaos': what a lovely thought for ensuring labels linked to what they say (so that 'very difficult' and 'severe', and 'extreme' still mean just that) and that adjectival grades meant the same thing for the routes affected and unnaffected by the changes in technology.
It's not a conspiricy either it's just a decision and it was clearly made. Irrespective of any other arguments it's where most post-war grade creep has occurred. I've no serious objection to the decision either, as long as it's applied uniformly, but I won't deny it happened. It may well have been easier to upgrade the climbs without cracks and breaks but that didn't always occur, especially in the low grades. The changes were also not that incremental in terms of an averege 5-10 year guidebook cycle (especially the arrival of cams) and in those guides a still unprotected climb would then be adjectivally harder and need upgradeding.
By the time I started getting interested in grit grades in the early 1990s the sub-VS stuff away from the classics was all over the place. Yet the grade logic of the same climbs from the early 60s guides and before made surprising sense to me in terms of the skill sets, equipment and protection of the time.
Now in the BMC grit guides the lower grade silliness has nearly all gone and it's also nearly all gone from Rockfax. I still think we would have gained if everything was two or three adjectival grades easier and UK tech grades still matched what was meant by font grades when they first came to the UK.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
It's true that cams are useful on gritstone, sure. I have invested in 6 or 7 over the last 10 years, and happily place them in parallel-sided cracks, where nothing else will fit. And there are plenty of routes on grit that I wouldn't attempt without them.
But I wouldn't go out and spend £200-300 on cams before my first visit to the peak district, which is what a few of you seem to be suggesting the OP should do. Fine, if he's got that sort of money, but there is plenty you can go at with a non-gritstone rack.
I've climbed a few hundred routes on gritstone. And I am an advocate of hexes in general, because a well-placed hex is as good as it gets, and substantially cheaper than a cam.
It's true that cams are useful on gritstone, sure. I have invested in 6 or 7 over the last 10 years, and happily place them in parallel-sided cracks, where nothing else will fit. And there are plenty of routes on grit that I wouldn't attempt without them.
But I wouldn't go out and spend £200-300 on cams before my first visit to the peak district, which is what a few of you seem to be suggesting the OP should do. Fine, if he's got that sort of money, but there is plenty you can go at with a non-gritstone rack.
> In spring and summer, I climb in the peak most days, so I think I'm reasonably well placed to comment. If I'd said, "you don't need anything except double racks of cams" you might have a point.
>
> But suggesting that if you want to enjoy climbing grit, you'll want a few mid-sized cams, is completely sensible. I suspect there is a hint of both 'hex-user self-righteousness' (something seemingly rife in the climbing community and as yet unexplained) and an inexperience on gritstone underlying your post.
>
> But suggesting that if you want to enjoy climbing grit, you'll want a few mid-sized cams, is completely sensible. I suspect there is a hint of both 'hex-user self-righteousness' (something seemingly rife in the climbing community and as yet unexplained) and an inexperience on gritstone underlying your post.
I've climbed a few hundred routes on gritstone. And I am an advocate of hexes in general, because a well-placed hex is as good as it gets, and substantially cheaper than a cam.
In reply to Monk:
I agree with all of that. I just wonder whether, for a first trip to the peak, urging the OP to go out and spend lots of money when he's asked what the minimum requirement for climbing on grit is, is really fair. Another solution is to avoid routes where the only protection is in rounded breaks and parallel-sided crack, by looking at the route from the ground.
> For balance, I own hexes and love them. However, I completely agree with Jon. On grit routes that rely on rounded breaks for gear or those with quite parallel cracks, I will often place only cams (I do usually take at least a few nuts for belays though!). Sure, you can fiddle in hexes some of the time, but cams make it quicker and more reliable meaning you reduce the pump. Grit is one of those rocks where cams make a huge difference to the feel of the route.
>
> I climbed extensively on grit for 9 years and my cams were essential pieces of gear. Now I climb far more on limestone my cams are almost reduced to a luxury - hexes are lighter and well suited to limestone cracks.
>
> I climbed extensively on grit for 9 years and my cams were essential pieces of gear. Now I climb far more on limestone my cams are almost reduced to a luxury - hexes are lighter and well suited to limestone cracks.
I agree with all of that. I just wonder whether, for a first trip to the peak, urging the OP to go out and spend lots of money when he's asked what the minimum requirement for climbing on grit is, is really fair. Another solution is to avoid routes where the only protection is in rounded breaks and parallel-sided crack, by looking at the route from the ground.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
Trouble is you just don't know what the placements will be like with grit. Since you can normally get a 1,2,3 cam set for around £100 and you will use them when you go elsewhere its hardly a wasted investment. Setting nuts and hexes for camming in parallel and flared breaks requires some care and experience: it's odd if not irresponsible that some folk above are proposing it for first timers.
Trouble is you just don't know what the placements will be like with grit. Since you can normally get a 1,2,3 cam set for around £100 and you will use them when you go elsewhere its hardly a wasted investment. Setting nuts and hexes for camming in parallel and flared breaks requires some care and experience: it's odd if not irresponsible that some folk above are proposing it for first timers.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
Picking up a set of three for £80 - £150 would be a reasonable plan, though (hint - Joe Brown's have currently have 4CU at £30 a throw or £80 for three and dragons at £120 for any three). Of course they aren't strictly necessary but if you're climbing anywhere near your limit then I'd pretty much guarantee that there'll be a point within about a day of getting them that you think "crikey, glad I had that with me, that was money well spent."
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
> But I wouldn't go out and spend £200-300 on cams before my first visit to the peak district, which is what a few of you seem to be suggesting the OP should do. Fine, if he's got that sort of money, but there is plenty you can go at with a non-gritstone rack.
Picking up a set of three for £80 - £150 would be a reasonable plan, though (hint - Joe Brown's have currently have 4CU at £30 a throw or £80 for three and dragons at £120 for any three). Of course they aren't strictly necessary but if you're climbing anywhere near your limit then I'd pretty much guarantee that there'll be a point within about a day of getting them that you think "crikey, glad I had that with me, that was money well spent."
In reply to andic:
A friend of mine managed to protect it with opposing hexes, years ago. Dunno how good they were, but...
A friend of mine managed to protect it with opposing hexes, years ago. Dunno how good they were, but...
In reply to Offwidth:
It's easy to see which routes have only horizontal breaks, and avoid them in case they are flared. How many routes have completely parallel vertical cracks? I'm struggling to think of any that a first-timer might consider.
It's easy to see which routes have only horizontal breaks, and avoid them in case they are flared. How many routes have completely parallel vertical cracks? I'm struggling to think of any that a first-timer might consider.
In reply to Voltemands:
If you don't have the gear to protect a climb adequately on the lead, but you really want to climb it, you could always top-rope it y'know. Just a thought. ;O)
If you don't have the gear to protect a climb adequately on the lead, but you really want to climb it, you could always top-rope it y'know. Just a thought. ;O)
In reply to Offwidth:
Maybe. When I bought my first cams, I got a set of the very cheapest I could find. They are crap so I hardly ever end up placing them. Since then I have slowly built up a collection of camalots that I place all the time. Maybe things have changed, but I reckon I wasted my money buying a set of cheap cams; I should have waited until I'd actually tried them out before splashing out.
Agreed.
> Trouble is you just don't know what the placements will be like with grit. Since you can normally get a 1,2,3 cam set for around £100 and you will use them when you go elsewhere its hardly a wasted investment.
Maybe. When I bought my first cams, I got a set of the very cheapest I could find. They are crap so I hardly ever end up placing them. Since then I have slowly built up a collection of camalots that I place all the time. Maybe things have changed, but I reckon I wasted my money buying a set of cheap cams; I should have waited until I'd actually tried them out before splashing out.
> Setting nuts and hexes for camming in parallel and flared breaks requires some care and experience: it's odd if not irresponsible that some folk above are proposing it for first timers.
Agreed.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
DMM 4CU may not be cutting edge any more but I don't think anyone would call them unusable. You can get 3 for £80 at Joe Browns. Ergo, I'd say things have probably changed...
> (In reply to Offwidth)
> [...]
>
> Maybe. When I bought my first cams, I got a set of the very cheapest I could find. They are crap so I hardly ever end up placing them. Since then I have slowly built up a collection of camalots that I place all the time. Maybe things have changed, but I reckon I wasted my money buying a set of cheap cams; I should have waited until I'd actually tried them out before splashing out.
> [...]
>
> Maybe. When I bought my first cams, I got a set of the very cheapest I could find. They are crap so I hardly ever end up placing them. Since then I have slowly built up a collection of camalots that I place all the time. Maybe things have changed, but I reckon I wasted my money buying a set of cheap cams; I should have waited until I'd actually tried them out before splashing out.
DMM 4CU may not be cutting edge any more but I don't think anyone would call them unusable. You can get 3 for £80 at Joe Browns. Ergo, I'd say things have probably changed...
In reply to Toreador:
It's far more complex than that. Its quite common that a cam is easier as a placement in a strenous position where the alternative is fiddly or that the crack winds or is discontinuos and can't be seen.
It's far more complex than that. Its quite common that a cam is easier as a placement in a strenous position where the alternative is fiddly or that the crack winds or is discontinuos and can't be seen.
In reply to Offwidth:
I was obviously very fortunate for all those years when I was puntering around on gritstone without any cams
I was obviously very fortunate for all those years when I was puntering around on gritstone without any cams
In reply to Toreador: You and I both - you certainly learned how to place good gear, quickly, and be very creative with your placements too - which is a skill that's certainly got me out of a few 'non standard' situations
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
Got a full set of 4CUs from 0 to 4 in half sizes. They were significantly cheaper than Friends and while I would have preferred Camelots, they work fine, see quite a lot of use and I'd buy them again. They don't feel "cheap" in any way, unlike Rock Empire or whatever.
Got a full set of 4CUs from 0 to 4 in half sizes. They were significantly cheaper than Friends and while I would have preferred Camelots, they work fine, see quite a lot of use and I'd buy them again. They don't feel "cheap" in any way, unlike Rock Empire or whatever.
In reply to Toreador:
Not that you'd ever disagree with grades or seek out obscure stuff or cease to be inexperinced or be very different in general from the OP.
Not that you'd ever disagree with grades or seek out obscure stuff or cease to be inexperinced or be very different in general from the OP.
In reply to Voltemands:
Yes, take some if you have some, if not buy some , they will come in handy not just on grit but all over the place. However you can happly climb for years on grit without them as we all did. They do work well on grit( horizontal breaks) and have cut many necky lead down a peg or two. They also get stuck easily in unsuitable placements , at the last count I have removed/found 24 of all sizes with 2s the most common.
Yes, take some if you have some, if not buy some , they will come in handy not just on grit but all over the place. However you can happly climb for years on grit without them as we all did. They do work well on grit( horizontal breaks) and have cut many necky lead down a peg or two. They also get stuck easily in unsuitable placements , at the last count I have removed/found 24 of all sizes with 2s the most common.
In reply to Offwidth:
That's true now, but wasn't true when I was a newbie.
Apart from the "obscure stuff" bit, though I didn't realise Peak Scar and Whitestone were obscure at the time, they were just my nearest crags
That's true now, but wasn't true when I was a newbie.
Apart from the "obscure stuff" bit, though I didn't realise Peak Scar and Whitestone were obscure at the time, they were just my nearest crags
In reply to Voltemands:
Nobody has mentioned pebbles yet. What is wrong with picking up a few pebbles on your way up to the crag and using them. Nice and cheap.
Nobody has mentioned pebbles yet. What is wrong with picking up a few pebbles on your way up to the crag and using them. Nice and cheap.
In reply to Toreador:
"wasn't true when I was a newbie" so what? all newbies should follow your path?? I prefer those I help to learn from my mistakes and progress a little more quickly than me... best onsight of E2 and only a few extremes a year isn't great. Cams help on that path.
"wasn't true when I was a newbie" so what? all newbies should follow your path?? I prefer those I help to learn from my mistakes and progress a little more quickly than me... best onsight of E2 and only a few extremes a year isn't great. Cams help on that path.
In reply to Offwidth:
So your previous statement is incorrect.
Not at all, I wouldn't be so arrogant. I'm just answering the OP's question - they don't need any cams (though it goes without saying that they'd be useful).
> so what?
So your previous statement is incorrect.
> all newbies should follow your path?
Not at all, I wouldn't be so arrogant. I'm just answering the OP's question - they don't need any cams (though it goes without saying that they'd be useful).
In reply to Voltemands: If you're getting cams please learn how to place them correctly. In the last few years it's become increasingly common to find old knackered cams stuck fast in routes. Besides the cost, they're unsightly and the block placements or holds for other climbers.
There's more to placing a cam than just whacking it in anyhow. Although most people don't seem to bother, I usually try to extend mine with a quickdraw, which definitely helps to reduce movement and the risk of it walking.
There's more to placing a cam than just whacking it in anyhow. Although most people don't seem to bother, I usually try to extend mine with a quickdraw, which definitely helps to reduce movement and the risk of it walking.
In reply to Howard J:
There are plenty of nuts stuck as well. As one stage Paucity had about 4. Every year at Wildcat we'd clear and collect a 'winter rack' from stuck nuts.
There are plenty of nuts stuck as well. As one stage Paucity had about 4. Every year at Wildcat we'd clear and collect a 'winter rack' from stuck nuts.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
True. Recently I placed a size 11 hex in a parallel grit crack. I looked at my belayer and said "it doesn't get much better than that". Cams are good, don't get me wrong, but if I'm at a good stance, I'll usually try a hex first.
>
> I've climbed a few hundred routes on gritstone. And I am an advocate of hexes in general, because a well-placed hex is as good as it gets, and substantially cheaper than a cam.
> I've climbed a few hundred routes on gritstone. And I am an advocate of hexes in general, because a well-placed hex is as good as it gets, and substantially cheaper than a cam.
True. Recently I placed a size 11 hex in a parallel grit crack. I looked at my belayer and said "it doesn't get much better than that". Cams are good, don't get me wrong, but if I'm at a good stance, I'll usually try a hex first.
In reply to Jimbo C:
Agreed. I've mainly climbed on grit, and got by with a good range of nuts and hexes until I could afford my Dragon 2,3,4 set, which covers most of the range of C4 0.75-2 and gave my Hex 5-8s a bit of a break. Anything wider still gets a hex 9, 10 or the ol' seagull basher thrown into it. The first climb where I thought I _needed_ a cam was an HS.
>
> True. Recently I placed a size 11 hex in a parallel grit crack. I looked at my belayer and said "it doesn't get much better than that". Cams are good, don't get me wrong, but if I'm at a good stance, I'll usually try a hex first.
> True. Recently I placed a size 11 hex in a parallel grit crack. I looked at my belayer and said "it doesn't get much better than that". Cams are good, don't get me wrong, but if I'm at a good stance, I'll usually try a hex first.
Agreed. I've mainly climbed on grit, and got by with a good range of nuts and hexes until I could afford my Dragon 2,3,4 set, which covers most of the range of C4 0.75-2 and gave my Hex 5-8s a bit of a break. Anything wider still gets a hex 9, 10 or the ol' seagull basher thrown into it. The first climb where I thought I _needed_ a cam was an HS.
In reply to Voltemands: I started off with just nuts and hexes and got by with these for a long time. If you are climbing lower grade stuff then this is all you need. I'd say from VS grade onwards you really need to start investing in cams. Sometimes you can get a set of technical friends 1-3 or 0.5-2.5. Either one of these sets or both would be perfect and fairly cheap. That said dragons, camalots, and helium friends are a better choice if you don't mind paying extra.
In reply to gavinpeach: Like most of the people I climbed with, we were ticking off up to E4/5 before 'friends' were even invented, and it was about the tail end of 79' before they started to come into wide spread use.
I have to be honest, it took me a good couple of years before I actually trusted them, and I could still get conventional nut pro in quicker than a 'friend' - probably due to a lack of fluency in the early days of their use.
And whilst friends have allowed previously poorly protected routes to become safer to lead, IMO, they have also taken a lot of the character and challenge out of routes - especially on Grit!
I have to be honest, it took me a good couple of years before I actually trusted them, and I could still get conventional nut pro in quicker than a 'friend' - probably due to a lack of fluency in the early days of their use.
And whilst friends have allowed previously poorly protected routes to become safer to lead, IMO, they have also taken a lot of the character and challenge out of routes - especially on Grit!
In reply to Voltemands:
It's really shocking to me that only one poster has mentioned Hexentrics. They are much lighter and cheaper than cams, and often do the job a lot better, while doing minimal damage to the rock. They are also typically very easy to remove. The only problem is that they need a bit of craft to place, and most people now, in this desperately consumerist age, just want the simplest and fastest possible solution irrespective of the cost, and the damage it might cause to the rock.
It's really shocking to me that only one poster has mentioned Hexentrics. They are much lighter and cheaper than cams, and often do the job a lot better, while doing minimal damage to the rock. They are also typically very easy to remove. The only problem is that they need a bit of craft to place, and most people now, in this desperately consumerist age, just want the simplest and fastest possible solution irrespective of the cost, and the damage it might cause to the rock.
In reply to Goucho: No they haven't: you can chose to not use them or even solo. Its interesting you were doing grit E4/5 in those days weren't the routes still XS/HXS?
In reply to Goucho:
I can see where you're coming from. I started climbing post cams and post pads (not intended to start a debate on this), and there are loads of routes I can get up now that would be out of my grasp were it not for modern pro. The difficulty of the routes has been reduced, and difficulty - including lack or difficulty of placing protection - is a part of a route's character.
In reply to Offwidth:
For whatever psychological reason, making a route artificially harder (e.g. climbing a bolted route as trad, shunning modern gear, soloing something with gear) does not feel the same as climbing a hard route in its 'natural style' if you see what I mean. I think it has a bit to do with comparing oneself to others. If you climb a hard route, you enter a group of people who have climbed that route. If that group of people have different 'levels of membership' the meaning of the group is altered and the experience is different.
That's not a very good bit amateur psychology, but hopefully you get the gist...I haven't climbed what I consider to be hard routes, but even in the low E's, certain routes have a gravitas that I would consider diminished if new gear made them less dangerous.
> And whilst friends have allowed previously poorly protected routes to become safer to lead, IMO, they have also taken a lot of the character and challenge out of routes - especially on Grit!
I can see where you're coming from. I started climbing post cams and post pads (not intended to start a debate on this), and there are loads of routes I can get up now that would be out of my grasp were it not for modern pro. The difficulty of the routes has been reduced, and difficulty - including lack or difficulty of placing protection - is a part of a route's character.
In reply to Offwidth:
For whatever psychological reason, making a route artificially harder (e.g. climbing a bolted route as trad, shunning modern gear, soloing something with gear) does not feel the same as climbing a hard route in its 'natural style' if you see what I mean. I think it has a bit to do with comparing oneself to others. If you climb a hard route, you enter a group of people who have climbed that route. If that group of people have different 'levels of membership' the meaning of the group is altered and the experience is different.
That's not a very good bit amateur psychology, but hopefully you get the gist...I haven't climbed what I consider to be hard routes, but even in the low E's, certain routes have a gravitas that I would consider diminished if new gear made them less dangerous.
In reply to Offwidth: E grades began to be introduced towards the tail end of the 70's if I remember right, but if I'd have put XS/HXS down, a lot of folk on here are too young to know what I'm talking about, but it's the grades the routes are given now, so whats the difference?
Also, there's a big difference between having gear you can chose 'not to place' and not being able to place any.
And the comment about soloing is silly in the context of a routes natural protection.
Also, there's a big difference between having gear you can chose 'not to place' and not being able to place any.
And the comment about soloing is silly in the context of a routes natural protection.
In reply to Jon Stewart: Good comments, and nice to hear a relatively young climber, understanding that climbing isn't just about breaking a route down to it's component 'technical/physical' difficulty.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Surely half the posts so far have mentioned hexes from one side or the other!
I'd tend to go for the pragmatic view which is that whilst you can climb loads of stuff without any cams, and that placing hexes is fine and dandy if you've got time, there'll probably come a point where you are really glad of getting a bomber cam into a horizontal break instead of fiddling in a less reassuring hex, or of being able to slam in a cam in when you're feeling a bit pressured in a strenuous position. May happen straight away, may be years before you get that sort of situation, but eventually you'll be glad of a friend on your harness...
Surely half the posts so far have mentioned hexes from one side or the other!
I'd tend to go for the pragmatic view which is that whilst you can climb loads of stuff without any cams, and that placing hexes is fine and dandy if you've got time, there'll probably come a point where you are really glad of getting a bomber cam into a horizontal break instead of fiddling in a less reassuring hex, or of being able to slam in a cam in when you're feeling a bit pressured in a strenuous position. May happen straight away, may be years before you get that sort of situation, but eventually you'll be glad of a friend on your harness...
In reply to AJM:
Maybe when people talk about hexes now they mean hexentrics. If so, great. Just shows how far behind the times I am since I stopped rock climbing.
Maybe when people talk about hexes now they mean hexentrics. If so, great. Just shows how far behind the times I am since I stopped rock climbing.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
What do you mean?
> (In reply to AJM)
>
> Maybe when people talk about hexes now they mean hexentrics. If so, great. Just shows how far behind the times I am since I stopped rock climbing.
>
> Maybe when people talk about hexes now they mean hexentrics. If so, great. Just shows how far behind the times I am since I stopped rock climbing.
What do you mean?
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Did you think we were talking about curses and spells?
> Maybe when people talk about hexes now they mean hexentrics. If so, great. Just shows how far behind the times I am since I stopped rock climbing.
Did you think we were talking about curses and spells?
In reply to Goucho:
Your over-simplifying: cams available in the early 80s made placements safer and more convenient rather than actually exist.
My comment about soloing is far from silly: many choose to solo (especially on shorter grit crags) to get that feeling back of a closer relationship with the rock. Some people also chose to climb without guidebooks grades etc for the same reasons. The rock exists, we make of it what we can, not just what one variant of the game reduces it to.
Your over-simplifying: cams available in the early 80s made placements safer and more convenient rather than actually exist.
My comment about soloing is far from silly: many choose to solo (especially on shorter grit crags) to get that feeling back of a closer relationship with the rock. Some people also chose to climb without guidebooks grades etc for the same reasons. The rock exists, we make of it what we can, not just what one variant of the game reduces it to.
In reply to Kipper:
What do you mean?
I assume Gordon is talking about a regular hexagon as opposed to a more modern off-set hex. I'm sure there are pictures of some in the Nuts museum.
What do you mean?
I assume Gordon is talking about a regular hexagon as opposed to a more modern off-set hex. I'm sure there are pictures of some in the Nuts museum.
In reply to Reach>Talent:
http://www.needlesports.com/NeedleSports/nutsmuseum/nutsmuseum.htm
Bottom of the page - Troll Hexagons.
http://www.needlesports.com/NeedleSports/nutsmuseum/nutsmuseum.htm
Bottom of the page - Troll Hexagons.
In reply to Offwidth: Wrong. Cams enabled protection to be placed where conventional nuts would not work - flared cracks, shallow horizontal breaks on grit....I could go on, and name actual routes if you want, so cams have reduced the seriousness of lots of routes.
Also, they have made climbs less strenuous, simply by the fact that placing a cam is a lot quicker than placing a conventional nut.
As for soloing, well it's a red herring, because we're talking about 'protecting' a climb, which is irrelevant when soloing.
Also, they have made climbs less strenuous, simply by the fact that placing a cam is a lot quicker than placing a conventional nut.
As for soloing, well it's a red herring, because we're talking about 'protecting' a climb, which is irrelevant when soloing.
In reply to Goucho:
I think the phrase you're looking for is "but you try and tell young people today that, and they won't believe you..."
> (In reply to Jon Stewart) Good comments, and nice to hear a relatively young climber, understanding that climbing isn't just about breaking a route down to it's component 'technical/physical' difficulty.
I think the phrase you're looking for is "but you try and tell young people today that, and they won't believe you..."
In reply to Jon Stewart:
So what's the maximum number of cams you can place in a Peak grit route?
So what's the maximum number of cams you can place in a Peak grit route?
In reply to Goucho:
I remember two incidents from the (just) pre-cam days.
1) placing 4 cammed Hexes in the break under the crux of Fern Groove, taking a flier and two of them popped. Repalced them, tried again and got it.
2) Hanging on one jam above the roof of Requiem, trying to cam the right sized Hex in before pumping out, from the selection of 'cow-bells' on my harness.
The next time I did both of them I was armed with modern technology - it made a HUGE difference!
Chris
> (In reply to Offwidth) Wrong. Cams enabled protection to be placed where conventional nuts would not work - flared cracks, shallow horizontal breaks on grit....I could go on, and name actual routes if you want, so cams have reduced the seriousness of lots of routes.
>
> Also, they have made climbs less strenuous, simply by the fact that placing a cam is a lot quicker than placing a conventional nut.
>
>
> Also, they have made climbs less strenuous, simply by the fact that placing a cam is a lot quicker than placing a conventional nut.
>
I remember two incidents from the (just) pre-cam days.
1) placing 4 cammed Hexes in the break under the crux of Fern Groove, taking a flier and two of them popped. Repalced them, tried again and got it.
2) Hanging on one jam above the roof of Requiem, trying to cam the right sized Hex in before pumping out, from the selection of 'cow-bells' on my harness.
The next time I did both of them I was armed with modern technology - it made a HUGE difference!
Chris
In reply to Goucho:
I'm sticking to my view that first generation cams made things safer and quicker but rarely made things protectable. Cams were clearly a big improvement but various tricks can gave alternative marginal protection. A folded over nut might even protect a shallow placement where it is not deep enough for a cam I know as I've used them that way and in shot holes where such cams wouldn't fit.
Cams still pop from flared cracks to this day; rigid stem cams often need tieing off in breaks (you need to know that in advance and/or have cord loops on them or ready to add).
You've completely missed the point I made on soloing.
I'm sticking to my view that first generation cams made things safer and quicker but rarely made things protectable. Cams were clearly a big improvement but various tricks can gave alternative marginal protection. A folded over nut might even protect a shallow placement where it is not deep enough for a cam I know as I've used them that way and in shot holes where such cams wouldn't fit.
Cams still pop from flared cracks to this day; rigid stem cams often need tieing off in breaks (you need to know that in advance and/or have cord loops on them or ready to add).
You've completely missed the point I made on soloing.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Good example - when I fell off Fern Groove, it was incredibly forgettable. I had two lovely cams in the break and I didn't think for a second that I was in danger (although I obviously jibbered a bit). In that sense, with cams, it's not a hard route (but I find that move pretty desperate!), but without them, it is.
> (In reply to Goucho)
> [...]
>
> I remember two incidents from the (just) pre-cam days.
>
> 1) placing 4 cammed Hexes in the break under the crux of Fern Groove, taking a flier and two of them popped. Repalced them, tried again and got it.
> [...]
>
> I remember two incidents from the (just) pre-cam days.
>
> 1) placing 4 cammed Hexes in the break under the crux of Fern Groove, taking a flier and two of them popped. Repalced them, tried again and got it.
Good example - when I fell off Fern Groove, it was incredibly forgettable. I had two lovely cams in the break and I didn't think for a second that I was in danger (although I obviously jibbered a bit). In that sense, with cams, it's not a hard route (but I find that move pretty desperate!), but without them, it is.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
It is indeed a good example but one of convenience and stamina not of the overall possibilities of some protection. It directly links to the bumbly argument above: good climbers recognise the gain from cams when they are getting pumped on their hard route yet some will still lampoon the lower grade climber facing a very similar situation on their crux (at their stamina, ability and experience) and say nuts and hexes should be sufficient for them.
It is indeed a good example but one of convenience and stamina not of the overall possibilities of some protection. It directly links to the bumbly argument above: good climbers recognise the gain from cams when they are getting pumped on their hard route yet some will still lampoon the lower grade climber facing a very similar situation on their crux (at their stamina, ability and experience) and say nuts and hexes should be sufficient for them.
In reply to Offwidth:
I see what you mean, and of course I'm as pro-cams (regardless of grade) as you can get. But for clarity, the issue on Fern Groove isn't stamina (although I think I used small cams instead of nuts on the upper part), it's that the crux is immediately above a horizontal break which like so many on Stanage offers the choice of lovely solid cams, or shitty dodgy hexes.
I see what you mean, and of course I'm as pro-cams (regardless of grade) as you can get. But for clarity, the issue on Fern Groove isn't stamina (although I think I used small cams instead of nuts on the upper part), it's that the crux is immediately above a horizontal break which like so many on Stanage offers the choice of lovely solid cams, or shitty dodgy hexes.
In reply to Offwidth: Lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that,
In reply to Chris Craggs: Know what you mean about Requiem Chris - getting the gear in is the crux, and pre-placing that hex should be considered perfectly acceptable
In reply to Goucho:
I'm happy to agree to disagree but would still like you to name all these grit routes where the new cams of the time were the only type of protection that could be arranged. I wasn't climbing then but know many who were and I'm very interested in history and especially the guidebooks of that time. The story I got was that on many routes cams made a massive difference in reliability, convenience and on a few you would need to be super strong to place anything else (so would need to preplace). However, I struggle to think of more than a few routes where it was regarded as the absolute only option. Offline is fine with me and I promise I won't argue the toss either way.
Same applies to anyone else who knows any such routes.
I'm happy to agree to disagree but would still like you to name all these grit routes where the new cams of the time were the only type of protection that could be arranged. I wasn't climbing then but know many who were and I'm very interested in history and especially the guidebooks of that time. The story I got was that on many routes cams made a massive difference in reliability, convenience and on a few you would need to be super strong to place anything else (so would need to preplace). However, I struggle to think of more than a few routes where it was regarded as the absolute only option. Offline is fine with me and I promise I won't argue the toss either way.
Same applies to anyone else who knows any such routes.
In reply to Offwidth: Not sure if this is really the case, but I've heard Millsom's Minion referred to as "an obsolete problem since the invention of modern protection" or something like that. Don't know where.
I know I've never seen anyone lead it without cams.
I know I've never seen anyone lead it without cams.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Yes you can now place cams right on the crux of Millsom's Minion, also
Five Finger Exercise ( layback flake )
Todys Wall , crux
Flying Buttress Direct ( mid roof )
> (In reply to Offwidth) Not sure if this is really the case, but I've heard Millsom's Minion referred to as "an obsolete problem since the invention of modern protection" or something like that. Don't know where.
>
> I know I've never seen anyone lead it without cams.
>
> I know I've never seen anyone lead it without cams.
Yes you can now place cams right on the crux of Millsom's Minion, also
Five Finger Exercise ( layback flake )
Todys Wall , crux
Flying Buttress Direct ( mid roof )
In reply to Offwidth: To start off with, no one ever said that there are grit routes, where cams are the only form of protection.
The point being made, is that there are routes which, pre cams, had maybe 2 or 3 'insecure' runners, which now with cams, have maybe 4 or 5 'good' ones - which by default, makes the route less serious with cams, than it was without them.
The simple fact is that cams have made protecting routes, easier, quicker, and more secure. If you doubt this, spend a few weeks climbing across a wide variety of routes, without any cams on your gear rack - you will notice the difference.
The point being made, is that there are routes which, pre cams, had maybe 2 or 3 'insecure' runners, which now with cams, have maybe 4 or 5 'good' ones - which by default, makes the route less serious with cams, than it was without them.
The simple fact is that cams have made protecting routes, easier, quicker, and more secure. If you doubt this, spend a few weeks climbing across a wide variety of routes, without any cams on your gear rack - you will notice the difference.
In reply to bill briggs1: I remember pre-cams, how strenuous getting a runner into the layback on Five Finger was - in the end, I just went for it without one!!!!
I then did it a few years later with cams, and I got the runner in 'mid move' it was that simple.
And at the lower end of things, look at how cams have taken the sting out of Hargreaves Route on Black Slab at Stanage - when I were a lad, that route was a real right of passage, now it's just another route.
I then did it a few years later with cams, and I got the runner in 'mid move' it was that simple.
And at the lower end of things, look at how cams have taken the sting out of Hargreaves Route on Black Slab at Stanage - when I were a lad, that route was a real right of passage, now it's just another route.
In reply to Goucho:
Sorry I clearly misread when you said "Cams enabled protection to be placed where conventional nuts would not work - flared cracks, shallow horizontal breaks on grit....I could go on, and name actual routes if you want"
Naming some more of those routes would be useful anyway.
Sorry I clearly misread when you said "Cams enabled protection to be placed where conventional nuts would not work - flared cracks, shallow horizontal breaks on grit....I could go on, and name actual routes if you want"
Naming some more of those routes would be useful anyway.
In reply to Goucho:
Hargreaves can still be very tough: many unsuspecting climbers end-up using all their cams before halfway...another good reason climbers should still learn how to use a hex to protect a parallel break.
Now how about that list you said you could name as I'm seriously interested and won't argue.
Hargreaves can still be very tough: many unsuspecting climbers end-up using all their cams before halfway...another good reason climbers should still learn how to use a hex to protect a parallel break.
Now how about that list you said you could name as I'm seriously interested and won't argue.
In reply to bill briggs1:
Placing hexes on that must've been a laugh - I know I'd just make sure I was good enough not to fall off...much easier!
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
> [...]
> [...]
> Flying Buttress Direct ( mid roof )
Placing hexes on that must've been a laugh - I know I'd just make sure I was good enough not to fall off...much easier!
In reply to Jon Stewart:
In polished slots you can fold a nut over and pull it until it beds. Best practiced a few times first.
I used a cam on lead and was glad of the lie down rest above. I've known of quite a few cams popping from that slot including from the odd climbers who normally place gear well.
In polished slots you can fold a nut over and pull it until it beds. Best practiced a few times first.
I used a cam on lead and was glad of the lie down rest above. I've known of quite a few cams popping from that slot including from the odd climbers who normally place gear well.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
No, on Flying Buttress Direct there was no runner mid roof, you did not get one till it was all over. Thats why it became a regular solo for many people.
> (In reply to bill briggs1)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Placing hexes on that must've been a laugh - I know I'd just make sure I was good enough not to fall off...much easier!
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Placing hexes on that must've been a laugh - I know I'd just make sure I was good enough not to fall off...much easier!
No, on Flying Buttress Direct there was no runner mid roof, you did not get one till it was all over. Thats why it became a regular solo for many people.
In reply to Voltemands: Thanks for all the helpful replies. Taking what's been said and the state of my wallet I decided the best option was some DMM torque nuts. Been out a couple of times with them for prep and am very happy.
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