UKC

Is it possible to make a living whilst working your way up through these?

The link seems to suggest that the minimum time is 8 years up to IMC, but presumably you have to work to pay for the fees / travel / gear, etc. at the same time as gaining all the experience.

http://www.expeditionguide.com/AMI.htm

I did my ML training last summer but I'm more interested in climbing and mountaineering than rambling/scrambling though I do love the outdoors.

Any ideas or experiences would be much appreciated. I know there have probably been hundreds of similar posts, but I can't find them, so apologies in advance for that.

In reply to squick: You need your ML before you can proceed to MIA and Winter ML, so focus on getting that done if you want to proceed towards your MIA

In reply to squick: Either make lots of financial and lifestyle sacrifices (if you're used to living comfortably), or have loads of money and time.

In reply to ChrisHolloway1:

My point was can you earn enough money from something (climbing instruction?) to live whilst preparing for your ML before you can then work as an ML to pay for your WML / MIA training, before working as a WML / MIA, etc....?

In reply to Andy S: Er, how does that work?

In reply to squick:
The key here is what (for you) is 'enough money'?!
There are not many jobs starting out in the outdoors that pay anything like a living wage, unless you are living in at the center and they pay for things like training etc.
As stated you will need your Summer ML before you go to MIA. Have you already got your SPA?
Ian

In reply to squick:

re climbing instruction... if you have spa or cwa,
otherwise work at a wall and do site specific training -
otherwise, unlikely unless you go it alone

not much idea about how much you can earn etc... as i dont
do it for a living.

In reply to squick: It's easier if you are working in outdoor education as you can gain the days needed for assessment while you work. In your case if you are working outside outdoor ed, then it will involve a lot of weekends as well as work. Very doable, but hard work.

Yeah, I work in an office in the centre of London, so little spare time other than weekends. Also massive overheads unless I move to live with parents, who don't live near any "mountain" areas so would be a lot of fuel to get to and fro.

Don't have SPA or climbing wall award.

In reply to squick:

Hi,

I am currently going through the process of the various qualifications myself so have done quite a bit of research. I have my ML assessment in 2 weeks. There seems to be a consensus that if you are planning to do the MIA then the SPA is a waste of time as it does not qualify you for anything that the MIA does not. But I have had knowledgeable people claim to me that if you want to work at a climbing wall the SPA is valued far more than the CWA (though presumably not as much as the MIA).

The "8 years" figure in the link assumes that you have no prior experience of climbing or hillwalking, but you (presumably) already have some or all of the experience required for the ML, ML(W), MIA and MIC.

In reply to monkey kong:

Goodness me, there is some crap spouted on here sometimes.. In a climbing wall enviroment, I doubt the SPA is more relevant than the CWA.

Also, that last paragraph makes no sense at all - read again:

The "8 years" figure in the link assumes that you have no prior experience of climbing or hillwalking, but you (presumably) already have some or all the experience required for the ML, ML(W), MIA and MIC.

Anyone else spot a contradiction??

In reply to ab tat:

Someone who works at a climbing wall told me this. I presume that the fact that some outdoor climbing is needed to get the SPA suggests that the candidate has a bit more background/experience in climbing, and that climbing walls value this. But since I have no interest in working at a climbing wall I have not investigated the issue in detail. In your profile you state "Eh??" under "favourite wall", which suggests that you are not very well qualified to comment.


If you look at the MLT website http://www.mltuk.org/ you can see that for all these awards you need to have a certain level of experience to take the training/assessments. For example, you need to have 40 logged days of hillwalking before you can take the ML assessment, and you need to have led 30 multipitch VS 4cs before you can take the MIA training. The OP probably has a lot of this experience already, so is not starting from scratch. Of course, you also need to pass the ML before you can progress to the ML(W) and MIA, and need to pass the MIA and ML(W) before you can progress to the MIC, but I did not state this because I assumed that it was obvious and that the OP already knew this.

In reply to monkey kong:
There seems to be a consensus that if you are planning to do the MIA then the SPA is a waste of time as it does not qualify you for anything that the MIA does not.

Nonsense.

1. You need some awareness of the SPA because you will be training & assessing it
2. It will allow you to get work while going towards your MIA.
3. Enables you to get group experience, just because you have your MIA, doesn't mean you will be a good instructor.

In reply to jezb1:

Fair enough, this is a good point.


I already have a job.


I am not an MIA so not that qualified to comment but it appears that group experience is on the MIA syllabus. At http://www.mltuk.org/mia.php it states:

"3 ROCK CLIMBING INSTRUCTION
1.prepare and organise a day's rock climbing instruction for a large group on a single pitch crag, including bouldering, climbing, top-roping, abseiling and lowering"

In reply to monkey kong:

2. I'm glad you have work, but I mean relevant work...
3. One days work with a group does not make you a good instructor, that takes a lot of time.

MIAs still have to work very hard to get work, it isn't a magic ticket, and plenty of experience using your ML, SPA etc will help you get good work.

SPA is not necessary as you know, but it is very relevant.

I'm sort of playing devils advocate here...

In reply to monkey kong:

And I know folk who work at walls who've actually done CWA *after* SPA...

Unfortunately I don't have most of the experience as the majority has to be in mountainous areas in the UK. And getting winter experience in Scotland sounds like quite a time consuming affair!

Also, none of this experience is really of any use if you want to go for your IFMGA and you can't go abroad. Seems like you'd be better off getting the experience for that, then you can take groups out anywhere doing anything unless you only want to use your qualifications in the UK.

In reply to squick:

If you want to work in winter, you need to be motivated to climb in winter, the experience and routes required will come as a natural consequence of your own personal climbing. If you have to chase routes to match any of the criteria then you are probably on the wrong career choice.


Many folk do the UK quals, as preparation for their guide quals, progressively gaining experience of using what they were taught on MIA / MIC etc. Again if you have to chase routes then perhaps it's not a natural career choice.

In reply to summo: OK, I could go and live in Scotland for a winter season and get it all done fine, but I live in London at the moment and how would I earn money to live if I moved?

WRT international guide, it's not about chasing routes, it's more that if you climb a classic north face, that doesn't count towards your MIC or if you go for a nice mixed route in Chamonix that doesn't count towards your WML. Which seems a bit odd.

You could probably get the experience for your IFMGA in a few years then qualify all in all taking less time than getting your MIC meaning you can guide anything anywhere in the world including the UK. Indeed, you could probably hold the IFMGA and not be allowed on the ML training course as you don't meet the minimum requirements!

I'm not trying to be confrontational, but debating through these points helps to go through the points in my mind.

In reply to squick:

Have you read the pre-requirements for the BMG training scheme? You need substantial (like 50) winter experience of routes up to Scottish V.

In reply to squick:

It's not odd, cimbing a classic North Face route or doing a mixed route in the Alps doesn't have much (or indeed anything) to do with leading groups in Scotland in the winter.

I can't quite see what you're getting at... If you have the experience to go for your guide and bypassing the UK qualifications then fine, go for it. But it's rare that people do this, and working as an MIA/MIC along the way to guide gives you money, access to resources and valuable experience

I guess I mean... wnat do you ultimately want to do? And whereabouts are you now in terms of living/skills/qualifications? And as an aside, you won't get through the UK guides scheme without lots of climbing in the UK - summer and winter, so I gues the thing is, you might as well go through the MIA/MIC schemes as you do this, as they help you towards the guides.

In reply to squick:

Plenty of southern climbers travel up on weekends and use all their hols doing so. It can be done, but at a cost.


My point was that you should get qualified in the fields that draw you, so you gain the qualifications as a knock on effect to what you enjoy and would have done anyway.


If you think you can get your Guides ticket before your MIC then go for it, you maybe suprised. If you are an active mountaineer with experience, year 1 is ML exemption and ML assess, SPA train and assess, year 2 MIA train plus ML Winter train, year 3 MIA and Wint ML assess... You get the picture, it can be done if your are dedicated and spend every spare day climbing.

To get the required Alps routes in it will take quite few seasons and some luck with the weather, not to mention climbing partners and funds etc..

George Ormerod:

Yes, I had. For that I assume that you can use alpine experience as a proxy for that. My understanding of the WML is that you have to climb 10 Grade I climbs. If you do Grade II, that doesn't count so there's no downward compatibility. However if you're leading VI, 6s then those do count for the international guide.

JayPee630: Don't really know what I want to do, but I want it to include outside and climbing and mountains.... I have been skiing for around 25 years and spent a lot of time outside but only too up climbing a couple of years ago and did my first trad route last August. Went to Scotland a few weeks ago and loved it. The thing about the British quals is that if I lived in Chamonix for a couple of years for example, would be no nearer to getting the experience for them.

summo: Going climbing every weekend from London is expensive (esp with fuel priced as it is), hard work and subject to the weather. Spent 7 hours driving to & from the Peak on Saturday and had a fun but hard and wet day slipping up grit routes. Back to where I started on the thread, does the whole process pay for itself, ie give up the day job and gain experience whilst instructing, etc. Though I don't see how you can earn money from anything in Scotland whilst getting experience unless you work in a climbing wall,the Ice Factor, which must have hundreds of applications!

In reply to squick:
My understanding of the WML is that you have to climb 10 Grade I climbs. If you do Grade II, that doesn't count so there's no downward compatibility. However if you're leading VI, 6s then those do count for the international guide.
That's not the case, it's grade I and above for the WML, if you've climbed harder that's fine. it's only meant to show competence on steeper winter terrain and generally the harder you've climbed in winter the more confident on this terrain you will be (although if you've only climbed ice/mixed and avoided any substantial snow slopes/gullies, this may not be the case). I just picked a selection of twenty routes for my WML logbook, mostly grades III to VI to show a range of what I'd climbed in terms of styles---I don't think there were any named grade Is on the list although some were mentioned on my quality mountain days and experience of leading groups in winter.

In reply to squick:


My understanding is that at least some of these may be done in descent though - for example if you have been climbing on the Ben & go down No 4, No 3, No 5 gully, Beinn an Dothaidh and go down West Gully, Broad Gully on SCnL, Easy Gully on Aonach Mor etc. so it shouldn't really take too much time to do. I don't think there's any compulsion to use ropes on them anyway, so failing this a couple of days soloing in the Northern Corries or somewhere would probably sort this out perfectly...


We do get quite a few yes! The whole process is expensive and time-consuming. You will likely have to forego other things which you would like to do/ be able to afford in order to make it work, or spend a long time getting there. Either way, it isn't something that will make you rich and at times you may doubt its ability to pay the bills at all. I'm lucky and have a stable job which gives variety and a reasonable wage. I have plenty of friends who freelance and whilst some manage quite well financially, many of them sometimes struggle to make things match up. You have to be well networked, reliable and good at what you do to make it work. I wouldn't try and put people off it, it's great - but you have to be in it for the love not the money!

Isi

In reply to squick:

To answer your question, the answer is yes, I've a couple of friends who've done this (but stopped short of MIC). Get the basic qualifications and work in field whilst doing further training. But don't expect to get well paid. You could even do it from London I guess with some dedication.

In reply to squick

No, if you're living in Cham, you're right, it won't help getting the UK qualifications, but then if you're living in Cham why would you want them, they're useless in the Alps.

Basically you just need to decide where you want to work and as what! After you're done that it will be easier to see how to get there.

Yes, the process can pay for itself. I did my ML and SPA assessment off my own back while living in the south. Then moved up north and spent 3 seasons working as a multi activity instructor at a centre. First season did ML and SPA assessment. Second and third seasons did MIA and WML training. Then left and freelanced while working towards MIA and WML assessments.

In reply to ab tat: is it worth really talking about the contradiction or the point of the thread? Can u back up your point that their talking crap. I think its a valid thread, Im a person who is having to ponder having to take redundancy and I have outdoor qualifications such SPA and Summer ML, over the last few days Ive noticed that tere are jobs out there for people with these kind of quals, plus in the economic situations we find at the present time threads like this are useful. Please reserve you comments to being useful.

In reply to squick:

Your question was how do you make a living whilst working your way up through the qualifications you stated. My answer is that 1. you work in your present line of work whilst doing the relevant work at weekends. This will take many years to get to MIA.

The answer I gave before is that you can't unless you are prepared to make financial and lifestyle sacrifices. If you take this route you'll have to move out of London and live in a centre somewhere. It'll take you a few years to get to MIA taking this route, as opposed to many years, if you really go for it.

In reply to JayPee630: UK quals are useless in Cham and Cham experience is useless in the UK so you have to completely qualify in one or the other, you can't do it by halves. So, it would have to be a choice between staying in the UK and only the UK to do it as quickly as possible or go abroad and not get any intermediate qualifications.

In reply to Andy S: You said the second option involved having lots of time and money. What's not to like?!

In reply to stuart58: How much is on offer? Could you see yourself going into training full time whilst working on the side to fund it?

In reply to George Ormerod: Would rather get out of London!

In reply to isi_o: I guess you need a balance between the love and the money. At least the love will get you out of bed in the morning. Most days.... Also good to hear that soloing is ok. Impression was that it had to be sole lead and roped up etc.

In reply to squick: As a rough estimate from start of the BMG guides course to the end will cost you approx £23000 (according to the Guide who ran my MIA). This is due to the cost of each of the courses you have to do, the number of trips you have to do to the Alps to get suitable guiding experience, skiing experience, touring experience, instruction experience, plus uk based rock climbing plus uk based winter climbing, bad weather will wipe out many trips. Its very much a calling and not something to do to pass the time. There are some fantastic climbers who did not pass the guides course - its not a given that once you start in 4 yrs you'll get free rides up the midi.

SPA - I'd say you could do MIA easily without it, but you find certain aspects a little tougher. EVERYONE on my MIA training had done their SPA. We all knew how to escape the system and more to the point we all KNEW what type of problems occur when taking groups out to the rock. These are the kind of problems that you don't read about in books.

ML, MIA - you do need the skills from one for the other. The ground is more technical so managing the party should be the least of your worries. Navigation is STILL a major part and needs to be second nature before doing MIA.


MIA and MIC can be used in some European countries (certainly not France) I think Norway and Spain recognise them but I'm NOT 100% sure on that I'd have to contact AMI.

You could go for your IML and with that you can take people snow-shoeing etc in France and all over.

In reply to DaveBear:

The OP is correct, you 'should' have named grade Is in your book. It is not just about showing how good a winter climber you are. It is about proving you can look at a slope(from above or below) and know that it's grade I , then deciding how to get your group down it or up it, should the need arise. Things may have changed, but over a decade ago when I did my Wint ML assessment several of us had not highlighted our specific grade I routes and we were asked to. Centre perhaps vary a little on their logbook interpretation.

In reply to squick:

There are plenty of other outward bound type centres, low wages though and some of it will feel like donkey work, but it gets you living in the right area. If your able you will get some good climbing buddies.

Forget the peak, do the odd visit to broaden your logbook, run the edges on the rainy day to gain the area knowledge, but in general if you're on a focused MIA/MIC/BMG mission then stick to major sea cliffs and mountains.

Look into Mick Fowlers early days of working for the tax people in London. Drving to Scotland overnight (car of 4) on friday, taking turns sleeping. They would do some serious new routing on Sat and Sun, drive back shift sleeping/driving, then back to work!

Scale this down a bit, get 3 or 4 reliable mates in London and chase the weather. Cornwall, Lakes, N Wales, Pembroke with random visit to other fun venues(wye valley, ogmore, portland,bristol etc..). Weekdays hit the gym and wall so you can do some serious long days bagging routes at the weekend. Out the bothy by 7am back in by 9pm just in time for food and a pint. It is down to the how much you want it factor.

Spend the rainy days ticking hills and all the scrambles in North Wales / Lakes - up 1, down another, this should nearly fill a day on Tryfan - perfect MIA mountain day assessment knowledge. Now do the same in the Pass, Langdale, Glencoe, Skye etc... no need to slip up grit routes in the peak, that is a lost day on your mission.

Midweek get in with one of the local orienteering clubs, this will sort your navigation out and fitness. There are loads south, W and N of London.

In reply to Andy S:
My answer is that 1. you work in your present line of work whilst doing the relevant work at weekends. This will take many years to get to MIA.
Not true, if you want something you can get it. I went from Summer ML assessment to MIA assessment in just over 2 years. I will admit that I was driven, and eat, slept and breathed climbing to get it done. As well as go to work. In the year of my MIA assessment I did close to 1000 routes, from short solos on grit, to 10 pitch routes in Scotland. I also managed to fit in my Winter ML training and various weekends winter climbing.

In reply to summo: I admit that it is possible and I would like to do that but nobody I know is that keen and certainly none of them wants to be climing in good weather one weekend and muddling around on a ridge in the rain the next! Might have to do some trawling through the internets.

Cheers for all the help guys. It's really done a lot to shape my thought process and work out what is possible and tentatively move close to deciding what I want to do.

In reply to squick:

What do you think you will have to do if you get two paying clients and it rains all weekend? Turn the work down or make the best of it?

Muddling around on a ridge is very much mountaineering, it may not always be climbing perfect rock and sun (without midges), but it is certainly very much part of UK mountaineering. Look at the number of classic routes, scrambles and hill day that involve a ridge? Many are some of best days out in the UK, with or without rain.

In reply to squick:

But that is exactly the nature of the job. Some days are fantastic weather and great routes, some days are not so fantastic weather and great routes and some days are really bad weather and easier routes. If you genuinely enjoy the mountains this will come accross to clients whatever the weather.

In reply to summo: I have no problem with getting out in the wet. If anything it is more fun and elemental. However I don't know anyone who would join me and do it out of choice. Especially people working 60 hour weeks who have to skip a lie in to be there.

In reply to squick:

That is why you need some dedicated mates, if you join some local clubs, mountaineering, orienteering etc you will given time meet folk who quite happy, in fact will be mad keen to be outdoors in any weather. "Beats a day in the office any day", will be their outlook. Drive though any part of the UK's hills on a rainy day and you'll find folk heading out. Once you get on a MIA training course and join AMI, you'll met other people with the same goal and can go on the workshops, which don't get cancelled if it rains.

There is nothing to stop you getting out in the rain though, if you genuinely want it, then you are going to need some serious hill mileage to get the logbook days, the area knowledge and you naving up to speed. Plenty of straight forward scrambles are fine in the wet and if you have high aspirations, then your ability to solo at this level shouldn't be in doubt. This won't help your group management though, but that's another issue, I don't know you from Adam, but I suspect you might be quite miserably company on a wet day in the hills, repeat custom and word of mouth helps you stay employed.

The key to all this is motivation and sacrifice, you just need to go at it like crazy for a few years and see where it takes you.

In reply to summo:
>I don't know you from Adam, but I suspect you might be quite miserable company on a wet day in the hills, repeat custom and word of mouth helps you stay employed.

Sounds like a ringing endorsement to me How can I fail?!

In reply to Paul at work:

Where did you live? This guy lives in London.

In reply to squick:

I have worked in a full-time non-climbing career and gone from no quals to MIC in 8 years.

Davy

In reply to squick:
Been running my own business for 15 years now. Best year's turnover was £26K so, yes, you can make a decent living but it takes lots of time and effort and work doesn't just drop in your lap. Lots of competition (I understand) for centre work and pay's not fantastic but it's a start. If you've a big enough pair, just go out and start selling yourself. Best of luck. AC

In reply to squick:

Its worth noting that most employers, clients etc, would regard the hierachy as follows;

Competence, Experience and Qualifications, in that order. So while qualifications are important its worth remembering what its really about.

Remember all the driving analogies, 'just having the licence doesn't mean you're a good driver', etc.

I would suggest it doesn't matter where you live or how much you earn, if you love it you'll get on and do it.

In reply to squick:

If I were you I would worry too much about it all. If you REALLY want to work in the outdoors go for it. The best advice I got some time back was to be able to have a few tricks up your sleeve whilst you are chasing tickets.
Like many folk have already said you can make a 'living' whilst working through the system but you have to put yourself out in the early years, especially if you live down south I'm afraid. I used to work all week, travel up to N Wals, Lakes or Scotland on Friday night then back for work Moday morning, sometime with mates other alone. Got a ton of experience and had great fun doing it but yes it was very expensive but now I live in N Wales so happy days!

Check out this link it may help you out a bit.

http://www.careersintheoutdoors.co.uk/ross_worthington_2011.html

Also if you want to be a BMG guide it is all about experience, experience and experience. It won't happen in a couple of years, more like 10 minimum for mere mortals. Most of the best guides I know have all worked through the UK qual system first.

Good luck what ever you choose.

Squick,

You say that experience gained in Chamonix wouold be useless in the UK, but think about that for a minute... It might not count towards th number of routes that you need, but from experience if you turn up to your ML assessment with not just the required UK days but other climbing and mountaineering from all over the place you'll get very positive responses about this from assessors.

Also, look at experience as what it gives you skills wise as a climber. Experience gained in the Alps and further afield wont replace UK days in your logbook, but will make you feel solid in the mountains.

I think the lifestyle question is interesting. I'm working towards outdoor tickets at the moment. Since I graduated I've spent a year working and climbing around Canada and North America, a winter in Scotland and a winter in Cham. Whilst I coule probably blitz the UK experience and be doing my MIA this summer, I'm enjoying climbing all over the place, and feel like I'm getting a lot out of it.

Work wise, I do some freelance outdoor work, and odd's and ends at other times. I don't earn much (certainly much less than 10k a year), but I live cheaply. You wont be driving a shiny car or eating in expensive resturaunts, but you will get to climb a lot. I'm happy to live a fairly transient lifestyle to allow me to do some great routes and have fun in some amazing places with some amazing people, but I can imagine it might be a big step to quit your job, give up where you live, sell the posessions that you dont need and become a climbing bum.

In reply to Will_Thomas_Harris:

Plus, as long as you're not developing some bad habits and are getting some good tips, you will be able to flash(relative) through the qualifications system, because you will have mileage, which counts for quite alot. Hope you've been pushing your skiing through the winter, just in case you fancy a guides ticket later in life.