UKC

Watched the Pilgrimmage DVD recently and quite enjoyed it. Not as good as Dosage but still inspiring scenery and climbing. Although it's nice just to see the problems without numbers to clutter any impressions of them, I'd still like to know what sort of grades would be attached to them. Looks like the stuff Chris Sharma was doing must be REALLY hard, but I'm sure the stuff that girl does is also harder than anything I could do. Grades aren't just a difficulty rating, they help put people relate problems to their own climbing experience.

Anyone know any precise grades?

In reply to robin mueller:

Grades don't fit in with the Sharma - Lowell marketing plan that emphasizes the spiritual side of climbing.

Indirectly of course because it is Sharma climbing you presume (rightly or wrongly) that these are probably at the cutting edge as regards difficulty.

Katie Brown is also involved with a marketing campaign to differentiate her from the "plastic-pullers" and "grade chasers"...(e.g., Tori Allen and her ilk).....so don't mention grades.

It's quite trendy to diss grades in the USA at the moment, which contrasts quite nicely with the UK's obsession with grades.

Mick

In reply to robin mueller:
Rightly or wrongly it's grades (or ability) that sell products. Chris Sharma may not agree with the grading of problems but he indirectly has made a living through this.
I personally think grades should be included as the majority of people buuying such a video would wish to know.
To me the choice is simple. If you wish to benefit financially from climbing then your standard needs to be assessed or people won't be interested.
I think what Josh did with Rampage was good where the grades were given at the end of the video.
I like Josh's movies and I also like to see people like Chris climbing. If a problem has a grade though I would like to know what it is. Within this I can aprreciate that some problems are not graded for one reason or another. All I can say to this is that people will lose interest in what you're doing in a video if they don't know what standard it is.

In reply to Billy De Kid: Will?

What grading system would you like them to use, most of the systems are subjective to rock type and situation and no matter what we in the UK think they are not transferable.

How's the finger?

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

Hellfire...I must be turning American...

In reply to Ian Hill: Worry not Ian, you're far too shy and retiring to have that happen!

In reply to flash:

It's mostly the shy and retiring American climbers who are ant-rating (anti-grading!).

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

exactly...it's only those that want to 'big up' themselves who worry about spraying the grades...

In reply to flash: you've not heard my power screams then??

In reply to robin mueller: Hi Robin,
are you from the UK and if so how did you get hold of the Pilgrimage DVD, I'm really keen to see it and several other of the BigUp productions films but can't seem to find a copy at the moment!

Cheers

In reply to Spider:
I picked it up in Outside in Hathersage! I was quite surprised to see it as I didn't know it was on general realise in the UK, but hey, it must be..

In reply to robin mueller:

tis in loads of shops...

In reply to flash:
Yes grading systems are indeed subjective and thats all they ever will be but they can give ball park figures surely.

In reply to Ian Hill
Not since the wood went up!

In reply to flash:
Who's hiding behind the name 'flash' I don't know anyone who boulders B12!

In reply to Billy De Kid:

They can but only if you understand the grading system, because we use the Font, British technical, V(?), B(?), Yorkshire V and god only know what else it is a bit confusing.

Remember that a Font 5+ can spank you sideways while you can walk up a Happy Valley V9. So while I agree that grading can give you a ball park idea they cannot give you a "hit list"

In reply to Billy De Kid:

Billy...question for you...and anyone else.

Doid a couple of new problems at the weekend.

One I rated V5, one V4.......the V4 has a harder move (out of a total of 3 moves) on it than the V5, the V5 has easier moves but lots of them.

Does that make sense or should I use English tech grades which would make the

V5 = 6a

and the V4 = 6b/c

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

Mick,

Where were they? If around Bishop then you should use the local system?

In reply to flash:

Yes Bishop. Yes I gave them V - grades. But I always find it a difficult grading short hard problems, compared to longer slightly easier ones and in this case the short one has a wicked hard move but is over fast, the other longer and has a pump factor to it.

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: How about using the Spanish grading system for the shorter problem and German for the longer one?

In reply to flash:

That'll confuse the dam yankees. I like it.

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
That makes total sense and I think the use of UK tech grades for bouldering is fairly meaningless without adding another adjectival grade as in leading which would just confuse everyone.
We like the V grade system in the UK and whilst it may be our version of this system it is adhered to as well as possible.

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: don't grade them...just point people at them...

or maybe we need a 'long problem' grading system and a 'short problem' grading system...after all how can you seriously compare Dreamtime with John Gaskin's latest V15 horrors??

In reply to Ian Hill:

I get in trouble for that.



Exactly.

In reply to Billy De Kid: personally I liked the B grade (what letter does the word bouldering begin with?)...I don't see what advantages changing the letter has, only that it's 'cool' to associate yourself with an American system...

Me, I've given up grading...climb everything, enjoy the quality...

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: surely the whole point of bouldering is that it's on little tiny bits of rock, small enough so you can see the whole thing pretty easily from the ground and so judge yourself whether you are capable of doing it...or even you could just get on the thing and try it, if it's too hard you fall off onto your comfy mat and spotters' arms, no harm done...no grade needed...unless you want fame and sponsorship...

In reply to flash:

nothing hard enough on there to call a project you see...

In reply to Ian Hill:


Which is fine and dandy once you have reached a certain level and experience but most find grades useful as they are a guide to the problems you may consider attempting and are useful as milestones in your climbing.

Grades don't take the enjoyment out of climbing.

I often get requests for tick lists at the Happy Boulders, in fact this week. Someone wanted to know where the best V1 to V4's are, he was on a short visit and didn't have the luxury of time.

Just got an email of him and he had a great time, it might have not been so great if he had gone their blind without a guide or list of recomended problems.

In reply to Ian Hill:

Wrong Ian. See my post above.

That's fine if you climb at a certain level and have the luxury of time to explore. Many don't.

Say if you were going on a trip to Joe's Valley, a large and complicated area.

You have 3 days to climb there.

Now you could just wander around trying what looks good and that is fun, we all do it.

But if you prepared before you went. Knew the best bits to go to and had a list of classic problems within the range that you climb at my guess is that you would have a better time, get more in, rather than just following your nose.

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

Another example.

You live in London, you like to boulder and fancy a trip to North Wales to savour the delights of the small rocks that Mr.Panton waxes lyrical about. You don't know anybody up there who knows the area.

Would you recommend that they get Simon's guidebook - with its detailed directions, great overview of all the areas, lists of the classics at each grade, inspiring photographs etc

OR:

Would you recommend that they go blind and follow their noses?

M

In reply to Ian Hill: Plenty of hard stuff on the wood you just have to be creative. I take it that you've already done the project I suggested in the book then?!

In reply to Billy De Kid: Hah! No not done that one...also know I won't do it...is OK apart from using that 'slate'...

actually i do have a couple of projects you haven't seen yet...will show you tomorrow if you're down?

In reply to Ian Hill:

Avoiding more of my questions Ian?

Come on youth...healthy debate. Defend your position or concede!

M

In reply to Ian Hill:


My experience is that people who who feel the need to say things like this are more obsessed with grades than anyone.

In reply to Anonymous:

... what I mean is that people who say "grades aren't important to me" are generally deluding themselves. They wish it was true, they see other people enjoying themselves, climbing without worrying about grades, and they wish they could be the same. But their ego won't let them forget about grades.

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: sorry, on a small screen here and didn't see your posts...

I think a guide to 'where the boulders are' is brilliant but when it gets to 'where the problems go' it becomes unnecessary and even limiting...if you know where the lines go most people don't look in between...they want bouldering on a plate, climb this bit, tick this box...once you can see the boulders half the fun is running around like a mad thing going 'oh oh oh have you seen this' and just *trying* things...

so you need a guide to get somewhere but you don't need a guide once you get there...

trying to work on some photos of unlisted Dartmoor granite problems here...

In reply to Anonymous: hmmm, very wrong...but not worth discussing more with someone anonymous...

In reply to Ian Hill:

I agree to a certain extent, but you don't forget, the most talked about problems are talked about for good reason and people want to know where they are.


You are talking perhaps about yourself. The climbing community is very diverse, some want a "directions only guide", some want the full monty. Who is to say who has the most fun? Not I. Not anyone.

Anyway, what do you think of this idea Ian?

I'm working on a small MiniGUIDE to some bouldering areas.....WITH NO DIRECTIONS.....just photo-topos of the boulders and descriptions.

So you have to do a bit of detective work to actually find the rocks.

In reply to Ian Hill:


I think you're talking about yourself here.

In fact guides can be very helpful in showing you problems that you'd never think of doing yourself. For example, you might see a stunning, blank line, but dismiss it as being too hard for you, and so not attempt it. If you had a guide which gave the line a grade that was within your reach, you might think again and give it a go.

In reply to Ian Hill:

You know, I would have bet £100 that you'd come out with the old 'you're anonymous so I'm not going to listen to you' argument. It's just a way of avoiding the question, because you don't have an answer to it. If you really thought I was wrong you'd have ignored me. It's too late now.

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: but then the best problems should leap out at you and not need reams of description to find...it never ceases to amaze me that Le Balance for instance is raved about when in fact it's hidden at the back of a boulder covered in better looking problems...

my general mantra is to let others do as they wish...my arguement is always from my point of view...but I always worry that the World is becoming too detailed, there is too much information out there...

I'd prefer a guide that took you to the rocks but then left you to it to find the problems...

Imagine the difficulty of just turning up somewhere like Bishop for instance and then trying to find all the boulders without any guide...

In reply to Ian Hill:


You're implying that these people are inferior to you. You're arrogant, and ignorant.

In reply to Ian Hill:

I don't need to imagine it. I lived it.

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: tempting fate but...surely you can't hide things that well at the Happy's...?

In reply to Ian Hill:

The point is at complex areas most need a guide to get to the problems, not just the climbing areas.

If you decide you don't want to use a guide and self-explore that's fine but it does strike some as arrogance to say generally that peeps would have a better time without being guided to classic problems that they stand a chance of getting up or want to attempt.

And this is coming from someone, me, whose majority of bouldering is of the self-exploration variety - without guides, names or grades.

I still like grades, names and grades u 'course.

In reply to Ian Hill:


So your personal choice is for self-exploration but the above will be prescriptive....? lines, grades, descrips, directions etc?

In reply to Ian Hill:
There are two aesthetic climbs on that boulder in my opinion Ian, 'La Berezina' and 'La Balance'. I have to say that 'La Balance' is quite the most beautiful problem I have ever tried and to me crystalizes a lot of the climbing at fontainbleau. Each to his own though...