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A while back I was helping out with a sponsored abseil for the Anthony Nolan Trust at the said waterfall, and I was horrified to see a climber abseiling down the right hand side of the waterfall with a wire brush ripping clumps of turf, plants, rocks, whatever he could get his hands on from the rock (I have digital pictures and Mpeg movies to prove it). The abseil at this waterfall had taken place in the same place on the left hand side of the flow (as you face it from below) for the past 18 years, and had always taken place in that same spot due to conservation and erosion issues.
The climber whom we spoke to was claiming it as a first ascent, however many of the people who I was with had also climbed the route, and knew people who had climbed it (without the need for scrubbing).
I held my breath during the incident, but now on picking up a copy of High Mountain Sports (page 23) I spotted the man himself, explaining his achievements.
Am I completely wrong in thinking that this is something I should be upset about? Or is this a normal occurence in the world of climbing that I should accept?
I agree that first ascents are important and all that, but at what cost?
The climber whom we spoke to was claiming it as a first ascent, however many of the people who I was with had also climbed the route, and knew people who had climbed it (without the need for scrubbing).
I held my breath during the incident, but now on picking up a copy of High Mountain Sports (page 23) I spotted the man himself, explaining his achievements.
Am I completely wrong in thinking that this is something I should be upset about? Or is this a normal occurence in the world of climbing that I should accept?
I agree that first ascents are important and all that, but at what cost?
In reply to John Cox: He is called Martin Crocker, and will be credited in the new Meironnydd guidebook, soon to be published by the climbers club.
In reply to CC:
Discredit his claim. You have photos of him, do you have photos of anyone else doing it?
Discredit his claim. You have photos of him, do you have photos of anyone else doing it?
In reply to CC: Whoa people! Hold on there!!
Firstly, if you took the trouble to read the text, you would have learned that Martin suspected that some of the lines he climbed on the waterfall crag may have been done before. He is keen to hear from people who have done them to ensure the first ascent credits in the forthcoming guidebook are correct, as the accompanying article states.
However, he thought that the one line depicted – a hardish E3 which, as you observed, needed loose rock to be gardened first, probably was new. You state that several of your companions had done it previously, so I can only assume you are right. However, I would also observe that multiple ascents of new, loose, vegetated hard E3’s without somewhere recording the event would be unusual. Not unique, but unusual.
As for the conservation issue, you obviously took exception to the fact you came across someone pre-cleaning a new route on mountain rock. However, the practises you observed – pulling off turf, vegetation, loose rock etc – are common practise on, I would hazard, 98% of new routes in the mountains. If you pillory this particular person, for these particular acts, you would also presumably decry all other new routing in the mountains?
Now I haven’t been to this crag, and it may be a particularly sensitive site – Martin was actually rather reluctant to publicise the climbs he did at all, because he felt a low profile was appropriate here. But he was keen to get the historical record straight, and once you send in the names of the true first ascentionists, I suppose he will have achieved that.
Neil
Firstly, if you took the trouble to read the text, you would have learned that Martin suspected that some of the lines he climbed on the waterfall crag may have been done before. He is keen to hear from people who have done them to ensure the first ascent credits in the forthcoming guidebook are correct, as the accompanying article states.
However, he thought that the one line depicted – a hardish E3 which, as you observed, needed loose rock to be gardened first, probably was new. You state that several of your companions had done it previously, so I can only assume you are right. However, I would also observe that multiple ascents of new, loose, vegetated hard E3’s without somewhere recording the event would be unusual. Not unique, but unusual.
As for the conservation issue, you obviously took exception to the fact you came across someone pre-cleaning a new route on mountain rock. However, the practises you observed – pulling off turf, vegetation, loose rock etc – are common practise on, I would hazard, 98% of new routes in the mountains. If you pillory this particular person, for these particular acts, you would also presumably decry all other new routing in the mountains?
Now I haven’t been to this crag, and it may be a particularly sensitive site – Martin was actually rather reluctant to publicise the climbs he did at all, because he felt a low profile was appropriate here. But he was keen to get the historical record straight, and once you send in the names of the true first ascentionists, I suppose he will have achieved that.
Neil
In reply to Neil Foster:
It IS a particularly sensitive site, indeed a well-known beauty spot visited by a great many folk daily, cafe and visitor centre, wooden steps up to it, the lot. If we're talking about the same place, I'm amazed people would consider climbing there at all, let alone cleaning in full view of the public. This is the waterfall up above that crag where Meisterspringer is, yes? (also a bit surprised, frankly, that people would consider a charity abseil down it either, so I may be wrong about the place, in which case I grovel)
It IS a particularly sensitive site, indeed a well-known beauty spot visited by a great many folk daily, cafe and visitor centre, wooden steps up to it, the lot. If we're talking about the same place, I'm amazed people would consider climbing there at all, let alone cleaning in full view of the public. This is the waterfall up above that crag where Meisterspringer is, yes? (also a bit surprised, frankly, that people would consider a charity abseil down it either, so I may be wrong about the place, in which case I grovel)
In reply to Neil Foster: The guys I were with may have been referring to the E1 a bit further along admittedly, which Martin does admit may have been climbed before, so I have no problem with the claims of first ascent.
My main problem is that of the "gardening" of the route, and the fact that this is a protected area.
In reply to John Cox: You may be thinking "double standards" here because of the abseil I spoke of, but the abseil has been going on for 18 years for charity, and has been restricted to the same line on the left face of the waterfall. The line is slimy and apart from a bit of damage to the grass at the top by the ropes (which will no doubt grow over - since it's only grass) no damage is done.
When the waterfall is too powerful for the abseil, they used to set up somewhere else a bit less harsh, but in recent years they have been asked not to by the local authority, because of erosion. Instead now the abseil is postponed for a better day, so saving the surrounding environment. This is why I was amazed to see the "gardening". Did Martin not contact the powers that be (whoever they are?) to see if it was ok? I can only assume the answer would be no.
And no, I do not decry all new routing in the mountains, only in these such places, where erosion and conservation are key concerns for the survival of the site.
My main problem is that of the "gardening" of the route, and the fact that this is a protected area.
In reply to John Cox: You may be thinking "double standards" here because of the abseil I spoke of, but the abseil has been going on for 18 years for charity, and has been restricted to the same line on the left face of the waterfall. The line is slimy and apart from a bit of damage to the grass at the top by the ropes (which will no doubt grow over - since it's only grass) no damage is done.
When the waterfall is too powerful for the abseil, they used to set up somewhere else a bit less harsh, but in recent years they have been asked not to by the local authority, because of erosion. Instead now the abseil is postponed for a better day, so saving the surrounding environment. This is why I was amazed to see the "gardening". Did Martin not contact the powers that be (whoever they are?) to see if it was ok? I can only assume the answer would be no.
And no, I do not decry all new routing in the mountains, only in these such places, where erosion and conservation are key concerns for the survival of the site.
In reply to CC:
I tend to agree with John Cox.The idea of a mass charity abseil down the side of Pystyll Rhydyr is a pretty dumb idea if you're talking about conservation.Why not go up the road to Craig Rhiwarth.You won't risk dumping a bloody great sod or a loose block on some poor grockle's nut !
I know MC is writing up The Rhinogs for the CC guide but I didn't think he was doing The Berwyns as well.God he gets everywhere !
I tend to agree with John Cox.The idea of a mass charity abseil down the side of Pystyll Rhydyr is a pretty dumb idea if you're talking about conservation.Why not go up the road to Craig Rhiwarth.You won't risk dumping a bloody great sod or a loose block on some poor grockle's nut !
I know MC is writing up The Rhinogs for the CC guide but I didn't think he was doing The Berwyns as well.God he gets everywhere !
In reply to Jonno: Doesn't this fall get winter ascents?
In reply to Jonno: It's not really a mass charity abseil, we're talking about 20 odd people who raise over £250 each for a worthy cause, once a year!
And like I said, the area they are restricted to using is not prone to erosion, the poor fund raisers end up spending most of their descent sliding down the slimy rock on their arses until they splash down in the pool below. The other side which was being climbed was flaky and brittle, and contained a considerable amount of shrubs etc.
Hundreds of people doing that abseil would never have created the damage I witnessed on the right hand side that day. I saw clumps of plant life the size of a football being slung down the waterfall.
And like I said, the area they are restricted to using is not prone to erosion, the poor fund raisers end up spending most of their descent sliding down the slimy rock on their arses until they splash down in the pool below. The other side which was being climbed was flaky and brittle, and contained a considerable amount of shrubs etc.
Hundreds of people doing that abseil would never have created the damage I witnessed on the right hand side that day. I saw clumps of plant life the size of a football being slung down the waterfall.
In reply to CC:
the size of footballs!!!!!
this guy obviously doesnt care about conservation, as it is also going in a guide book for other people to garden.
as for the abseil, i along with the rest of the population will turn a blind eye as it is in the name of charity, and I KNOW of your restrictions regarding conservation of the site!
as for this first ascent mallarky, i think that it should be withheld from publication to prevent other climbers attempting a climb in one of britains best beauty spots!!!
the size of footballs!!!!!
this guy obviously doesnt care about conservation, as it is also going in a guide book for other people to garden.
as for the abseil, i along with the rest of the population will turn a blind eye as it is in the name of charity, and I KNOW of your restrictions regarding conservation of the site!
as for this first ascent mallarky, i think that it should be withheld from publication to prevent other climbers attempting a climb in one of britains best beauty spots!!!
In reply to fRotherby:
"As for the abseil, I along with the rest of the population will turn a blind eye as it's in the name of charity"
Well in that case, count me out of the rest of the population. Can I be the minority please? The minority that would like to see all charity abseiler's ropes cut while they swing about on them.
"As for the abseil, I along with the rest of the population will turn a blind eye as it's in the name of charity"
Well in that case, count me out of the rest of the population. Can I be the minority please? The minority that would like to see all charity abseiler's ropes cut while they swing about on them.
In reply to Kev wynne: I would rather attempt to justify an abseil which raises a few grand for Leukaemia sufferers than one which just satisfies the amusement of a small group on a classic crag.
And the point that has been made several times before is that this particular abseil was not near a climbing area, and in no way damaging to the environment, it just happened to be occurring the opposite side of the waterfall as the "first ascents" hence the birth of this thread!
The only other charity abseils I have organised or taken part in have been from buildings, and I for one don't take my groups abseiling down pebble-dependant E4s, if at all.
And the point that has been made several times before is that this particular abseil was not near a climbing area, and in no way damaging to the environment, it just happened to be occurring the opposite side of the waterfall as the "first ascents" hence the birth of this thread!
The only other charity abseils I have organised or taken part in have been from buildings, and I for one don't take my groups abseiling down pebble-dependant E4s, if at all.
In reply to Kev wynne:
you seem to be a nice chap!!!!
you seem to be a nice chap!!!!
In reply to CC:
Oh don't get all touchy!
It's not just charity abseiler's that I dislike.
there's a whole list of people on the crag who I would like to see condemned for all eternity.
-youth groups, scouts, D of E types, cadets blah blah...
-university clubs
-climbing club groups made up of blokes called Dave.
-Children
-old people
-middle aged people
-people with dogs
-people without dogs
-people with loads of shiny gear, falling off everything.
-top ropers
-young men with hats and no shirts on (cold enough to warrant a hat - warm enough to take off shirt -paradox?
-have I mentioned girls yet?
-people with a SPA
-people using poff - unless their really famous.
-Young men who carry their matress to the crag with them - they look like dispossesed narcoleptics (a damning indictment of the state of the NHS?)
-silly hats that draw attention to the wearer - as well as cries of wanker, tit and what the f*&k
-empty chalk wrappers
-human shit on stanage
-girls who climb better than me
-boys who climb better than me
the list could go on and on forever, but unfortunately I can't.
Nice chap? not according to anyone who's ever spoken to me for more than a micro second.
Oh don't get all touchy!
It's not just charity abseiler's that I dislike.
there's a whole list of people on the crag who I would like to see condemned for all eternity.
-youth groups, scouts, D of E types, cadets blah blah...
-university clubs
-climbing club groups made up of blokes called Dave.
-Children
-old people
-middle aged people
-people with dogs
-people without dogs
-people with loads of shiny gear, falling off everything.
-top ropers
-young men with hats and no shirts on (cold enough to warrant a hat - warm enough to take off shirt -paradox?
-have I mentioned girls yet?
-people with a SPA
-people using poff - unless their really famous.
-Young men who carry their matress to the crag with them - they look like dispossesed narcoleptics (a damning indictment of the state of the NHS?)
-silly hats that draw attention to the wearer - as well as cries of wanker, tit and what the f*&k
-empty chalk wrappers
-human shit on stanage
-girls who climb better than me
-boys who climb better than me
the list could go on and on forever, but unfortunately I can't.
Nice chap? not according to anyone who's ever spoken to me for more than a micro second.
In reply to Kev wynne: Hehe Fair enough...
You can't have that many mates if you dislike anyone mentioned in your list! But each to their own, next time I'm at Stanage I'll be wearing sensible clothing, have a dog but not have one, have surrendered my SPA and quit my degree ready to traditionally lead with old battered kit.
Maybe you'll come say hello then? Or do you also dislike Gingers...? Oh well...
You can't have that many mates if you dislike anyone mentioned in your list! But each to their own, next time I'm at Stanage I'll be wearing sensible clothing, have a dog but not have one, have surrendered my SPA and quit my degree ready to traditionally lead with old battered kit.
Maybe you'll come say hello then? Or do you also dislike Gingers...? Oh well...
In reply to CC: I can't dislike gingers - I am one. Sort of.
In reply to Kev wynne: I did wonder why that hadn't appeared on your list!
Oh well, at least I have one plus point then... But looking at your list I also have many negatives. Bugger.
Oh well, at least I have one plus point then... But looking at your list I also have many negatives. Bugger.
In reply to Kev wynne: Going off your list kev you are not allowed to go yourself under your rules so the rest of us can carry on as usual and you can stay at home. :-o(
In reply to sutty:
Sorry I forgot to mention that I am exempt from inclusion into any category on the list - 'cause that would just be silly wouldn't it?
How's sweep by the way?
Sorry I forgot to mention that I am exempt from inclusion into any category on the list - 'cause that would just be silly wouldn't it?
How's sweep by the way?
In reply to Kev wynne: You have just gained the right to put £5 in the nearest MRT collection box as the 100th person to ask that, please don't be shy.
In reply to sutty:
The MRT's - bastard! I knew there was something I forgot to mention on my list!
The MRT's - bastard! I knew there was something I forgot to mention on my list!
your an idiot, dont bother replying, infact your only girlfriend you will ever have is probably waiting for you in Yahoo! chat, so alt+tab now before she dumps you aswell
HAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHA
In reply to Kev wynne:
Kev - steady on with dissing narcoleptics, as I am one of those, and I can assure you, you wouldn't like to get on the wrong side of me as I'd probably fall asleep on your shoulder.
By the way - what the freak is Crocker doing? Is he that desperate that he's got to excavate some chossy E3 to get his name in Neil Foster's Rock Notes.
I think it's about time Crocker emigrated to the land of poison and gold - and acres of unclimbed pristine rock.
In my humble opinion.
Mick R
Kev - steady on with dissing narcoleptics, as I am one of those, and I can assure you, you wouldn't like to get on the wrong side of me as I'd probably fall asleep on your shoulder.
By the way - what the freak is Crocker doing? Is he that desperate that he's got to excavate some chossy E3 to get his name in Neil Foster's Rock Notes.
I think it's about time Crocker emigrated to the land of poison and gold - and acres of unclimbed pristine rock.
In my humble opinion.
Mick R
In reply to Mick R:
"as I'd probably fall asleep on your shoulder"
Well if you were wearing your chaps Mick, I probably wouldn't mind!
"as I'd probably fall asleep on your shoulder"
Well if you were wearing your chaps Mick, I probably wouldn't mind!
In reply to CC:
If you accept,as you have to,that Martin Crocker is the Osama bin Laden of rock climbers.That is a fanatical zealot,then the idea of him seeking a new route up a vertical,vegetated waterfall is nothing unusual.
Crocker is unique in British climbing.A man who eats,drinks and sleeps climbing and in particular new routing.
It's just the way it is...... OK !
If you accept,as you have to,that Martin Crocker is the Osama bin Laden of rock climbers.That is a fanatical zealot,then the idea of him seeking a new route up a vertical,vegetated waterfall is nothing unusual.
Crocker is unique in British climbing.A man who eats,drinks and sleeps climbing and in particular new routing.
It's just the way it is...... OK !
In reply to Jonno: Woah! Hold on there, Osama Bin Laden? That's taking it a bit too far! If that is what I had thought then I would have rigged a 17 stone abseiling fundraiser to fall "accidently" on the wrong side of the waterfall and send him crashing down to his demise inbetween two gluttonous thighs.
I don't know the guy, he could be a really sound chap. I was just mentioning what I witnessed, and wondered what others had to say about it, and hey, we had mixed reponses all round.
I don't know the guy, he could be a really sound chap. I was just mentioning what I witnessed, and wondered what others had to say about it, and hey, we had mixed reponses all round.
if he was 'the osama bin laden of climbing' than i would have cut his rope (or played the slack game 2 test his nerve on his shit protection!) instead of poor charity abseilers as mentioned above!!
In reply to CC: Was reading Joe Brown's "The Hard Years" over the weekend and thought of this thread when he was talking about pulling huge "caterpillars of turf" out of cracks - I think on Cloggy. I think expressing surprise at Crocker's actions is slightly hypocritical of all of us before we go off to Stanage or where ever and climb nice clean routes that were once in a similar state. The Question should be do we need anymore climbs now if we have to keep gardening like that to make them?
In reply to Kev wynne: My long lost brother, where have you been all these years!
In reply to TobyA: I like to think there are places I can go to to climb, and other places I can go to to just chill out in nice scenery. I'm not sure where the line is normally between the two, for example climbing on Tissington Spires (etc) in Dovedale is frowned upon by the local walking posse but I would call that ok to climb on. I also love Dovedale as a place to go walking and relax, so yes, a bit of hypochracy (sp?).
In the case of the waterfall though, I think it is clearly a site to be left alone, there are only a few lines on it anyway, so what's the point of trashing it? My opinion is that there are already thousands of climbs in hundreds of locations round the UK, and there aren't many people that can say they have climbed what is already on offer. They are not creating first ascents because they need somewhere new to play, they are doing it because they want to get their name in guide books and magasines!
Most of us could go out and find some hill with a bit of rock on it, take a shovel and a wire brush and stick our name next to some VDiff... but we don't, because getting your name in the book is not the point, instead we leave the hill alone and go for some existing routes further along.
I do not discourage or condemn new routes/first ascents, but I think there is a time and a place for them, and (in my opinion) this wasn't one of them.
In the case of the waterfall though, I think it is clearly a site to be left alone, there are only a few lines on it anyway, so what's the point of trashing it? My opinion is that there are already thousands of climbs in hundreds of locations round the UK, and there aren't many people that can say they have climbed what is already on offer. They are not creating first ascents because they need somewhere new to play, they are doing it because they want to get their name in guide books and magasines!
Most of us could go out and find some hill with a bit of rock on it, take a shovel and a wire brush and stick our name next to some VDiff... but we don't, because getting your name in the book is not the point, instead we leave the hill alone and go for some existing routes further along.
I do not discourage or condemn new routes/first ascents, but I think there is a time and a place for them, and (in my opinion) this wasn't one of them.
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