UKC

Polished as, loose & minging top outs, and always top roped.

Should it just be bolted with chains at the top?

Let’s nip this one in the bud to save everyone a long unenlightening thread….

The owners won’t allow it.

Also, it’s not loose. 

Not always top roped, even recently.

I thought redwall was bouldering?

The limestone quarry itself is pretty loose that I no longer climb there.

1. Not allowed to be bolted.

2. Definitely not just top roped. 

3. If the routes were bolted I think they would quickly become as polished as the traverse then not be climbed on at all.

So no it shouldn't. 

What a nihilistic post! Do you actually enjoy climbing? I hear knitting is great.

Natural lines up steep rock with just enough gear, the Red Wall is unique within the area and provides a great series of challenges for the willing. I've only managed to lead Izzy the Push so far, but it was brilliant... devious... thrilling and pumpy as hell!

In Lancashire, we're not yet so debased as to engage in grid bolting our precious heritage. This ent Yorkshire! The Silverdale sea cliff bolts are enough to remind us, with deep shame, of why we're so reluctant to desecrate our rock with a drill.

Erm loose? Do you mean the main wall etc? Certainly isn’t 

Although you haven't stated this, it would seem that you've had a good spanking c/o the Red Wall. Instead of throwing your toys out of the pram how about upping your game? If HVS is your top grade then you're not going to thrive on Red Wall but there are much better challenges over on the other side of the quarry for you. Red Wall routes are all tough for the grade and it helps to have a grade or three in hand if leading. Gear can be tricky but that's part of the challenge isn't it?

What's wrong with top-roping? On a near-vertical wall with good, accessible top anchors and a belayer who isn't pulling you up, the experience is all but identical to leading on closely spaced bolts.

The only differences are if you get scared 2 feet above a bolt or if you think leading is somehow more manly.

Fun fact: this happened previously in the 80s/90s and didn't last long.
I remember dogging badly up something - Izzy the Push possibly?

Trowbarrow  is a  Site of Special Scientific Interest for its geological features and no bolting is part of the management agreement. 

Bolt it bolt it bolt it!!! 

.... if you think leading is somehow more manly.

Isn't it ?

Well, can I suggest that you never head over the hill to Warton Main. You'll be pooing in your pants before you're even parked up.

Yes. I hadn't been to trowbarrow in ages, however I was there on Saturday and was thinking exactly the same thing. 

It's an ideal wall to be bolted, so ideal there is actually a sign put up saying you can't bolt it. But despite the apparent majority being against it I guarantee Redwall would go from being rarely climbed to super popular overnight. 

Haven actually climbed some of the routes on it, whether lead or top-roped way back, they are actually quite good and at a technical difficulty that would make them great as mid-level sport routes. But given they aren't often climbed the lack of traffic does take a toll. 

Yes it would get polished, as does all limestone if it's popular. But just like the bouldering below you get used to it. I'd rather rock got polished from 1000's of people enjoying it than getting dirty and over grown from a lack of use.

You've not really got the point of it being an SSSI of especial geological note, have you?

T.

I know of several geological SSSIs that require regular digging out/cleaning using a JCB! On this particular section of cliff Lord Ash may have a rather tangential good point (as opposed to the rest of Trowbarrow) 

Not that I'm advocating bolting mind.

If you want to climb it without the spice, why not top rope it? That's a genuine question by the way. 

Your ignorance is showing. If you'd actually got more than a few feet up you'd soon realise that the 'dirt' actually seeps out of the cracks whenever it rains, or flows down from the top below the trees in damp weather. Your 'ideal' bolted wall would just be a 'dirty' bolted wall. It would also possibly become a banned, dirty bolted wall since it's a SSSI nature reserve. Those hollows and runnels that the routes link are one of the best examples of a prehistoric karst (I think). It's not just about fossils on the Main Wall. Please educate yourself about the reasons why there are no bolts there. It's not just local climbers' ethics.

You said -

'But given they aren't often climbed the lack of traffic does take a toll.'

I was there last Thursday evening and there were seven climbers top roping and leading routes. It's not the most popular crag in the world, but I'd struggle to say the routes 'aren't often climbed on'. 

Some can be enjoyed with pre placed gear, and so feels like sport with a slight added buzz.

For the full wind up, you should have left "Trowbarrow" out of the title.

Asking on UKC is, simply, pointless.

Get it put on the agenda for discussion at your next BMC area meet if you are serious.

Plenty of local youths always in here on trial and motocross bikes ripping around this SSSI in a quiet and sympathetic way! 

Location: London

Best Onsights: Trad - HVS

If you're feeling like red wall isn't for you, have you considered.... Maybe...... Just..... Going somewhere else? Dumbarton maybe?? Dyers Lookout perhaps?

2/10

I've corrected that for you. It's not up for discussion since Trowbarrow is a SSSI, owned by Lancaster City Council who encourage climbing but with (among others) the proviso that bolts aren't placed. This is outlined in the last two Lancashire guidebooks and can no doubt be read online.

Seriously? I was a volunteer for years with the local AONB unit managing the site until I moved away about seven years ago and this hadn't been a problem. If it had we'd have noticed and responded. It was in the past but was tackled. If it has cropped up again then please let them know at the office in Arnside. There is a dedicated officer for the reserve (I was interviewed for it almost a decade ago). Cycling in the quarry is fine - the tracks are actually good for species of burrowing bees.

And I'm sure the area reps will be aware of that, and I'm equally sure the land owners position could change.

I am dealing with an approximately similar situation locally right now, and I am putting in the leg work in with the land owner. Local climbers think the proposals we have are a good idea, and there are several reasons why it's good for the SSSI.

I don't know what SSSI you are referring to but I did read the particular documentation that applies to Red Wall when I applied for the reserve officer job in Trowbarrow. Anything that would damage the geological characteristics that are a part of the designation would be classed as criminal and carry a hefty fine for the perpetrator. This definitely includes drilling holes in it.

Yes I assume it is an ORNEC requiring consent from by NE as you well know, which is all part of doing it properly, including raising it a BMC meet

So we can rule out issues of overuse from bolts then? As it's apparently already popular and gets plenty of use? As for the SSSI status, what difference would a few bolts make? Presumably, people climbing on it (even in numbers) isn't an issue or they'd have banned it altogether. Would it suddenly become less scientifically interesting? 

I'm not sure what ORNEC stands for nor am I sure what point you're trying to make. Natural England are in charge of policing SSSI damage. Lancaster City Council owns the site and would not be interested in allowing anything that damages the site. So what's the point of raising it with the BMC? The management plan for Trowbarrow is available online.

Given that it's an SSSI because of its geological significance, yes; that's exactly the point.  

T.

Operations requiring Natural England's consent. Without knowing the specific site, I assume installing bolts would fall foul of one or more. It can absolutely still be done, but Natural England must give consent as well as the land owner. Whether it is appropriate or not, or likely to happen isn't what I'm considering and frankly I don't care.

See "Manage SSSI land effectively"

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/protected-areas-sites-of-special-scientific-int...

Yes.

Now, back under your bridge....

'Popular' and 'plenty of use' is a bit of a leap from your original 'aren't often climbed'. Not sure where you got that from?

As somebody who climbs regularly on Red Wall I think bolting the routes would lead to more use and them polishing up nicely to match the traverse, which I would say isn't desirable. 

It's a good little trad crag that can be easily climbed on using a top rope or leading. The ticking over of ascents logged on this site shows that. Simply leave it as is. 

Using SSSI status as an argument against bolting but in favour of climbing is an argument fraught with difficulty. As is the polish argument.

Oddly, I don't believe I've argued in favour of climbing.

Given how long it's been a climbing venue it would be churlish to try and argue against it but one or two numpties behaving ignorantly can knock precedence into a cocked hat.  It's in everyone's interest that this doesn't happen, just as it's in everyone's interest to be good guardians of the natural environments we use for our playtime.

T.

I saw the tracks last Tuesday , whilst taking a party of students there to explain about protected landscapes! However,  they're probably not damaging the recorded features as such - I may be wrong. 

moving up from the Peak, I just immediately bonded with Red Wall, de focus your eyes, and it’s 1983 on Minus 10 Wall at Stoney Middleton vibe. Polish, great problems. 
I never really thought about the routes above, but the bouldering can ‘creep up there’. Apart from being an SSSI, ‘always toproped’ is the very last justification for bolts.

IIRC the BMC were one of the fundraisers who also included the local Landscape Trust and individual donors. When Trowbarrow was bought from Tarmac in 1997 it was given to Lancaster City Council to run as a nature reserve with climbing as an integral activity so long as it's impact was kept minimal on the SSSI features (no abbing or toproping on Main Wall but OK elsewhere, no organised groups and NO bolts).

Well if you see this again please call the police because riding a motorbike in there is an offence

Pointless. If you want to top rope. Tope rope. If you want to lead . Lead . Bolting is not allowed here .That was decided yrs back.  One route was bolted in the 90s and chopped.

I think if it was bolted . It would get so polished within a yr or two. 

Polish really is a poor argument. It is traffic not time that cause polish. If it takes 1000 ascents to polish a route to ruin, what difference does it make if this takes 1 year or 20? Either way 1000 climbers enjoyed the route.

Why is super-popular a good thing?

There are so many reasons why this isn't the case I don't know where to begin!

I wish the downvoters would explain why they seem to think motorbike riding in a SSSI nature reserve is OK. Trowbarrow is not just designated for geology and the site is not just the quarry itself. Here's a quote from the last management plan available online:

'Extensive recreational use of the quarry floor by off-road motorcycles caused severe damage to the
quarry floor and led to a loss of ground cover, and also created erosion tracks through Storrs Lane
Wood. The banning of motorcycles once the site was acquired has been effective, and colonisation by pioneer species continues. Some disturbance is however desirable for species like dark red
helleborine and solitary bees and wasps, so informal recreational mountain biking is permitted'

https://www.arnsidesilverdaleaonb.org.uk/uploads/2016/04/trowbarrowlnrmanag...

The ground and tracks that we walk across to move about the quarry floor is also important habitat and part of the SSSI designation. Here is the pdf version of the reserve leaflet - a lot of this is on the signs seen at entrances to the reserve (hopefully, I haven't been into Trowbarrow this year yet).

https://www.arnsidesilverdaleaonb.org.uk/uploads/2016/04/guide_to_trowbarro...

I'll contact the AONB office at Arnside this morning to see if they're aware of the situation regarding motorcycles.

I wasn't a down voter but can see reasoning behind it.

Whatever leisure pursuit one chooses it will upset someone. Undoubtedly there will be a cohort of quarry users who do not like climbers and will have solid reasoning to back this up.

Down votes are an odd thing, look at all the down votes for my polish post above. It is a factual post yet disliked by many. Some will dislike a post claiming that the sky is blue.

That's an interesting argument, but I'm not sure it's true. I think there is some evidence that polish is undone by natural action over time (eg rain and wind). That seems to be the case on some Peak Limestone trad crags that are less climbed on now than they used to be. If that's true then frequency of use is important as well as total number of ascents. Lower frequency implies more time to recover, and over many years more people enjoying the route.

It's also worth considering that "working the route", which is fairly standard when leading on bolts, can potentially involve a lot more polishing, especially at the crux, than trad leading on gear. So the amount of polishing resulting from "x" ascents is not the same in each case. I appreciate, though, that top-roping can have a similar impact to working the route on bolts.

Martin

I've just been speaking to a staff member at the AONB office in Arnside (they administer the reserve). They have been alerted to the damage by another member of the public but don't know exactly when it was caused - apparently there were trail bikes out on the sands nearby at Silverdale Cove at about the same time. Did you see the bikes yourself and can you provide dates/times? They can't have a staff member on site 24/7 but any information would help - if (as your first comment implies) this is a regular occurrence then it needs to be taken further. If it's just a one-off event that's unfortunate but not as serious. Of course, these things are often posted on social media and are then followed by others wishing to emulate. About twenty years ago I encountered someone (nice bloke) riding a trail bike about the place. He was genuinely unaware that he was in a nature reserve and committing an offence. To his credit, he wasn't stroppy or argumentative and he left soon after. Since then I'm not aware of too much if any motorbike activity.

The acidity of rain water may remove some sheen from a polished hold but this takes 100s of years to have a noticeable effect. Unless we are going to ration routes to single figures ascents per century, traffic will remain the main driver.

Actually it takes an awful lot less time before the change is noticeable.

Just ask people from Bristol with regard to Avon Gorge.

Rubbish. If you can't deal with a bit of polish you need to improve your footwork. Admittedly when things reach a total mirror shine it's a bit different but there really isn't that much of that, even in Avon.

Well, it may be just a false perception (or perhaps my footwork's got better) but I do think that recently crags such as Wildcat have seemed less polished than when I first climbed them 35 years ago. 35 years is a fair time, but not "100's of years". Does anyone else have the same perception?

Martin

Thanks for this, Northsea - I'll pass your info on to the Arnside team who manage the reserve. If you (or anyone else) has a similar experience to this or other encounters with motorbikes in Trowbarrow please pass the details on to the Arnside office at [email protected] or phone 01524 761034. There's also a contact form on their website.

Not me. Someone needs to have a firm word with most of the Stoney classics and ask them to sort themselves out

You’d expect differences between different sites according to local factors like weathering, petrology, mineralogy etc.. 

(If anyone can be bothered there’s more than most of us would ever want to know about limestone dissolution rates here: https://www.mdpi.com/2075-163X/11/6/605 )

I dug this out last time limestone dissolution rates were discussed for some field based UK examples https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&a...

Conclusion is for peak lime weathering rates are 0.035mm a year so I wouldn't hold your breath for those stoney classics to unpolish any time soon!

Thanks, I knew someone would have data at their fingertips.

Interestingly, Spanish climbers have been experimenting using different reagents to remove polish. The most effective method they have found is brown sauce and toilet paper. The acidity of the sauce dissolved the surface, the gel nature of the sauce and the bog roll hold it in place and slow evaporative losses down.

Also works on chipped holds (I will get my coat)

What's the pH of HP?

The reasons for not bolting have been set out in other posts but are repeated here.

Trowbarrow is an SSSI for geological reasons. Bolting is a damaging operation and to do so could result in a fine or imprisonment! Permission has had to be sought from Natural England to remove some loose rock! Notwithstanding that the Landowner will not allow any bolts.

As for the motorcycles, this seems to have flared up recently. Probably a couple of youths from the area. The National Landscape team are aware of the problem. It is a police matter but I suspect they have other priorities. Please report any incidents to the NL team and the police. Any info on where they come from would be helpful. Difficult to physically stop as the access gate is wheelchair accessible.

Martin Elliott

BMC Access Rep (Arnside and Silverdale)

There‘s a fault in your argument. Using your figures, if you bolt it then 1000 sport climbers get enjoyment for a year, but you take that enjoyment away from 1000 trad climbers for the next 20 years. Good job there’s no question of it being bolted.

Nowhere have I argued for or against bolts on red wall.

I have raised the folly of using polish as an argument. Polish is traffic related. The only thing climbers can do to avoid creating it is not climbing. It does not matter which arbitrary genre you choose as being the most holy, a route will tolerate a finite number of ascents before it becomes polished. X climbers will enjoy the route in an unpolished state.

Some nut wranglers also clip bolts... 

I didn´t say you´re arguing for or against bolts; you put up a theoretical situation, and I simply pointed out what the two sides of the coin would be.

Yup, if we view reduce the variables to polish only, every ascent you enjoy denies a future climber of similar enjoyment.

If your going to get a fine or imprisonment for bolting might as well bolt something decent rather than red wall. Go big and all that, Assagi wall is a much better target. 

I spoke to the 3 children (aged approx 14yrs old) last night, they don’t care about, nor understand the damage they do, and don’t have anywhere else to go. I asked them to leave, they didn’t, as much as I wanted to be more direct, that isn’t right. I would ask that anyone else who sees them there also speaks with them and tells them the error of their ways. There were small children cycling around in the same area, this didn’t deter them! Hopefully if enough people mention it to them, they’ll go. You can also call the police non-emergency number to start logging how often they’re there. 
 

With regard to some other points raised, I also think that Red Wall should be bolted. However, it’s not allowed so not an option. Top roping is actually technically not allowed in any part of the quarry, not just main wall, this was confirmed to me by the head warden during a meeting last year. All the horizontal breaks are actually fossilised tree roots, which is soft and readily breaks out. Another point raised is that the tops are loose, this is true and the fact that there have been very recent natural rockfalls from the top proves this. I suspect there will be more. My suggestion here is that if you are planning on leading a route, you should ab down and properly check the top out first. I have removed a lot of loose rock from the top of the left end (looking up) over the last couple of years, and there is still more that needs to go, so pretty big blocks as well. 
 

Trowbarrow is a fantastic venue and needs looking after. All the Lancs quarries have equally loose, polished and scary bits in them, but all offer great routes and relatively friendly atmospheres. Just be sensible, take care and enjoy the climbing. 
 

Col. 

P.S. Yellow Wall deserves more attention . Steep, solid, rough rock and good gear. 

Well done for taking it up with the motorcyclists, Col. Their age suggests that they are local so their parents must be aware of what they're doing. Have you contacted the AONB office at Arnside? I spoke to someone there yesterday and they were interested in gathering more information/evidence of what's happening. If you look further up the thread (yesterday) you can find their contact details on another of my posts.

Karl

Fortunately drilled and glued in pegs are 100% legal on Assagai wall.

Hi Karl,  

I know the wardens, but just let Martin deal with it, to keep a single point of contact as the BMC Access Rep. Video and other information has been passed over during the last week. So they are well aware. 
 

Thank you for your help as well. I never read these forums usually, but Martin had mentioned it might be worth looking at. 
 

Col. 

Grand! Where's my drill...

It doesn't remove polish, obviosly.  It removes rock.

Good news - I wonder once the Tories are kicked out and we get a Labour government if more funding will be available for organisations like the BMC to support bolting Trowbarrow etc 

Hopefully the bikers move on. It's worth noting that history has a habit of repeating itself. I remember being menaced by some more aggressive MX riders back in the 80s/90s. I've done some work for the AONB way back and they do a fine job. I only recognised how unique the landscape is after moving away. Worth noting also that we were the trespassers once - there were definitely times when you had to watch out for the 'man from Tarmac'.  

I was ejected by him on at least one occasion (probably in the eighties/nineties, before it became a reserve). It's ironic that not long after they sold it, Tarmac bolted themselves a nice little plaque to one of the small boulders on the quarry floor. I can't recall what guff they put on it but it soon disappeared. The 'No Climbing' they spray painted onto the rock faces lasted longer - probably weathered away by now.

As does the act of polishing or climbing as we prefer to call it.

Indeed.  But assuming we aren't going to stop climbing then at least we can choose not to add additional erosion.

Then we should accept polish and not complain about it or use it as an argument in cases like this.

This brings me right back to my original point. Polish a deeply flawed argument.

Blame the polish, sure. It comes over here, ruins our crags and contributes nothing of any value. I vote we we banish it and return to traditional British fare like in the good old days.

I think we are agreeing.

Hopefully transitory, kids of a certain age with a new toy who will move on to something else soon. I remember motorcycles in late 70s early 80s but that stopped. 

Hah, I was turfed off a couple of times. The chap came with a camera not sure if it had film in. Times change. Its a popular spot now not just for climbers but people out for a walk, kids on bicycles playing on the jumps etc.

Hopefully the local authority will see there is a need for a suitable leisure facility and build one, or at least not perpetually block attempts to provide one.

I read the title as "Red Wall Bolting Tomorrow'. Nearly spilt me tea!

I have seen bikes there as well. Local kids one group left then another group appeared. Also heard others mention it. I think it is a regular thing. 

I assume when you say 'bikes' you mean motorcycles (of whatever size)? Bicycles are fine. If it is motorcycles then please can you contact the Arnside AONB office - details are on another of my earlier messages. It's really important that this is tackled.

I did the E3 and E6 there, both were great trad routes and certainly not loose. A bit polished yes, but that’s no reason to bolt it. Should stay as is.