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I personally love ice climbing more than rock climbing.
Which is better if you could do one all year round?
Which is better if you could do one all year round?
In reply to Martin P:
If I could only do one all the time it might get a tad dull, variety is what I like. Its also why I try and climb on different types of rock.
If I could only do one all the time it might get a tad dull, variety is what I like. Its also why I try and climb on different types of rock.
In reply to Martin P:
I love rock. I mean I never ever wanna step foot on ice... I mean its just pants isnt it. You'd never get me in the alps expecially not on that crappy frendo spur.....
I love rock. I mean I never ever wanna step foot on ice... I mean its just pants isnt it. You'd never get me in the alps expecially not on that crappy frendo spur.....
In reply to jude:
Just messing. The limited stuff I've done in winter has given me far more of a buzz than rock has.
Just messing. The limited stuff I've done in winter has given me far more of a buzz than rock has.
In reply to Martin P:
At the level I climb, I prefer snow/ice to rock.
I feel more comfortable on it than on rock. But then I have never done anything above Grade II. I might change my mind on an icefall!
At the level I climb, I prefer snow/ice to rock.
I feel more comfortable on it than on rock. But then I have never done anything above Grade II. I might change my mind on an icefall!
In reply to Martin P: I know what you mean! try getting on ice to though. It has the same feeling up to about grade four
In reply to Martin P:
Never tried ice climbing - it looks way cooler than rock climing though. You know all those overhangy frozen icicle waterfall type things where the only way up is figre of 4 on protection 20 foot below you. I reckon it must be loads
New debate then.....scarier than rock climbing and that's pretty scary.
Who's harder, rock climbers or ice climbers. Those climbers that do both aren't allowed as they will confuse the rather simple arguement.
Never tried ice climbing - it looks way cooler than rock climing though. You know all those overhangy frozen icicle waterfall type things where the only way up is figre of 4 on protection 20 foot below you. I reckon it must be loads
New debate then.....scarier than rock climbing and that's pretty scary.
Who's harder, rock climbers or ice climbers. Those climbers that do both aren't allowed as they will confuse the rather simple arguement.
In reply to Martin P: Ice all the way. Go to the Ecrins in winter and climb a few kilometres of frozen waterfall. I think I like the greater freedom of movement, you choose all the holds etc. Also the excitement of hanging a couple of hundred metres up an icefall in a snowstorm while plumes of snow spray down the ice over you, it's pure adventure. God I can't wait to go back, either the Ecrins again or Norway to the Rukon.
Oh no I can't stop, ice is all soo different and beautiful. The sound of water tumbling underneath and wondering whether it will hold you as it booms when you hit it, that feeling of having hot needle driven into your calves as you try to place gear. I'd better go and have a cold shower.
Cheers
Toby
Oh no I can't stop, ice is all soo different and beautiful. The sound of water tumbling underneath and wondering whether it will hold you as it booms when you hit it, that feeling of having hot needle driven into your calves as you try to place gear. I'd better go and have a cold shower.
Cheers
Toby
In reply to Martin P:
I went to Edinburgh Uni partly to get in some good Scottish ice but after 3 crap winters I saw the following quote (I think in Crags) from an american selling his house in Fort Willian which he had bought as an ice climbing base, "Scottish ice is the biggest myth since the Loch Ness Monster - I am heading south to hit the stone baby!" - I took this message to heart; got a T-shirt made up with the quote on the front and back and subsequently only used my Terradactyls for smashing rocks on Geology field trips... I choose the stone!
I went to Edinburgh Uni partly to get in some good Scottish ice but after 3 crap winters I saw the following quote (I think in Crags) from an american selling his house in Fort Willian which he had bought as an ice climbing base, "Scottish ice is the biggest myth since the Loch Ness Monster - I am heading south to hit the stone baby!" - I took this message to heart; got a T-shirt made up with the quote on the front and back and subsequently only used my Terradactyls for smashing rocks on Geology field trips... I choose the stone!
In reply to Martin P: ill stock with toby there! you got it in one toby! i headed up to north wales one night with a mate just so we could climb for one day on the glyders. climbed in a blizzard and drove all the way back home ready to work on monday. one of the best days on the hill i have had for ages!
In reply to Martin P:
If we can magically have snow all year, can we have that magic warm snow that doesn't necessitate spending two hours hammering the tent pegs before sleeping in four pairs of trousers?
If we can magically have snow all year, can we have that magic warm snow that doesn't necessitate spending two hours hammering the tent pegs before sleeping in four pairs of trousers?
In reply to Simon Cox:
Rjukan in Norway. Flight's not too expensive if you buy a restricted ticket. Bus from Oslo's about £14 if you buy a group ticket, and either the chalets or youth hostel are quite cheap in winter. Nightlife's not too great, though.
And the ice is superb!
Rjukan in Norway. Flight's not too expensive if you buy a restricted ticket. Bus from Oslo's about £14 if you buy a group ticket, and either the chalets or youth hostel are quite cheap in winter. Nightlife's not too great, though.
And the ice is superb!
In reply to Martin P: Cheers for the tip rob! i love this! ice talk in the middle of summer! Guess the hardcore addicts! Nice to see some proper climbs on rock talk!
In reply to Martin P:
just took a look at
http://www.sljus.lu.se/People/Struan/Climb/NordicIce/Rjukan.html#Climbs
and started dribbling.
just took a look at
http://www.sljus.lu.se/People/Struan/Climb/NordicIce/Rjukan.html#Climbs
and started dribbling.
In reply to Michaelw: That is superb, there are also pages for the Ecrins stuff. Look at:
http://icehome.in.pi.cnr.it/Icehome.htm
http://www.ice-fall.com/ Look at conditions de glace for pictures. You can also look at some picture I took at:
http://www.een.bris.ac.uk/OPNET/opnet_web_pages/icons/pics/france/
Enjoy
Toby
http://icehome.in.pi.cnr.it/Icehome.htm
http://www.ice-fall.com/ Look at conditions de glace for pictures. You can also look at some picture I took at:
http://www.een.bris.ac.uk/OPNET/opnet_web_pages/icons/pics/france/
Enjoy
Toby
In reply to Martin P: rock!
I have this terrible dislike of the idea of hitting what is essentially just water that happens to be a little bit harder than normal with a big chunk of metal! I just could not trust it (weak feeble and cowardly I know but I just don't like the idea!)
I have this terrible dislike of the idea of hitting what is essentially just water that happens to be a little bit harder than normal with a big chunk of metal! I just could not trust it (weak feeble and cowardly I know but I just don't like the idea!)
In reply to Martin P: Why am I only willing to do hard moves (for me) on rock a metre above a bomber nut or preferably two, but am willing to get pumped stupid on something that creaks, drips, has bits that break off and fall down your neck, when you are four or five metres above a scew? Ice damages the part of your brain that does "sensible".
I had a conversation with Brit-pack alpinist extraodinaire
Al Powell once, about hard Scottish mixed routes (for him hard mixed is VIII,9 whilst for me it is V,6 but never mind) and basically how brilliant it all is. I was wondering out loud why I push much harder on winter routes in the mountains than I do in summer on the crags. Al's reply: "oh that's obvious! You wear more clothes in winter, falling off doesn't hurt as much!".
See what I mean about the sensible thing?
I had a conversation with Brit-pack alpinist extraodinaire
Al Powell once, about hard Scottish mixed routes (for him hard mixed is VIII,9 whilst for me it is V,6 but never mind) and basically how brilliant it all is. I was wondering out loud why I push much harder on winter routes in the mountains than I do in summer on the crags. Al's reply: "oh that's obvious! You wear more clothes in winter, falling off doesn't hurt as much!".
See what I mean about the sensible thing?
In reply to Michaelw: I'm doing the same, my Nordic climbing friend has just moved back to Oslo so my girlfriend and I are planning to go to the Rjukon this Christmas. Those pages are superb.
Cheers
Toby
Cheers
Toby
In reply to TobyA:
'Ice damages the part of your brain that does "sensible".'
Very well put, Toby. How true it is. Although for me, pushing hard is Grade II {
'Ice damages the part of your brain that does "sensible".'
Very well put, Toby. How true it is. Although for me, pushing hard is Grade II {
In reply to TobyA:
Out of interest, what routes has Al done at this grade - I ask as I know there are only a very small handful of these routes so always interesting to know who has climbed them. Somehow these achievements never get trumpeted in the way that they deserve.
Out of interest, what routes has Al done at this grade - I ask as I know there are only a very small handful of these routes so always interesting to know who has climbed them. Somehow these achievements never get trumpeted in the way that they deserve.
In reply to Martin P: Rock rocks, but ice rocks harder! Winter climbing, whether grade II or VII, is all about adventure and insecurity, in a way that most modern rock climbing just doesn't seem to capture. I led the big ice pitch on Mad Hatter's Gully on Beinn Bhan, and the ice was just at the point where it becomes soft, not quite slushy but sugary, and it wouldn't take any screws, so I sweated up it, on really uncertain placements, untiil I topped out and got a peg in a crack. That was the most intense experience I've ever had in my life, bar none-easily equal to any orgasm I ever had!
Never had the same on rock.
Never had the same on rock.
In reply to Toby_W:
Probably best to go to Rjukan *after* christmas. Sometimes the falls aren't that well formed until the Christmas period's almost over. Early January can be good (short days tho') but Feb/March are even better. Was there first week in January this year and there was so much snow falling that the longer multi-pitch climbs up the hillsides were too banked out to even attempt. Even some of the IVs in the gorge had a lot of snow sitting on them. Going next year but not until mid-Feb.
Probably best to go to Rjukan *after* christmas. Sometimes the falls aren't that well formed until the Christmas period's almost over. Early January can be good (short days tho') but Feb/March are even better. Was there first week in January this year and there was so much snow falling that the longer multi-pitch climbs up the hillsides were too banked out to even attempt. Even some of the IVs in the gorge had a lot of snow sitting on them. Going next year but not until mid-Feb.
In reply to Michaelw:
Could be a good place for a winter meet. I'm definitely off there next Feb!
Could be a good place for a winter meet. I'm definitely off there next Feb!
In reply to Martin P:
well blow me over
if i aint a winter virgin
>=o)
i will try it out this year though. (fingers crossed)
well blow me over
if i aint a winter virgin
>=o)
i will try it out this year though. (fingers crossed)
In reply to Martin P: yeah go on give it a try! why not even this summer? Head on out to chamonix and get out on the Mer De glace!
In reply to Anonymous: To be honest I'm not totally sure what Al has done; saying "VIII,9" I was just making the point that his "hard" is much harder than my "hard"! He has done Unicorn with one fall, which a lot of shite got kicked up about, but from all I have heard was totally unfounded and uncalled for. I remember some new VIII on one of the Aonochs which was done by Al and one of the Benson twins I think, and I think he has done some of harder routes on Lochnagar, probably on the Tough-Brown face. I think it shows that lots of amazing climbs get done by climbers who aren't pros so don't know need to trump their acheivements in the press for their sponsors' benefit. Al and Rich Cross did a new winter route on the Petit Dru which is reported to have numerous pitches of Scottish VIII on it!
In reply to Martin P:
I only have a little ice-climbing experience, but can't say I took to it. Here's why: I love the direct contact with the rock, the textures, the shapes, the guessing games. On ice you have minimal direct contact with the medium, you just shove in the metal-work and then aid on it! Weird.
Also, ice seemed to me (at least as a beginner) to test mostly brute strength, nerve and balance. Rock tests strength, nerve, balance, ingenuity, imagination, agility...
I'm glad I did it because I love the high places in winter, and now I can make a mean balakov thread. But I wouldn't go looking for frozen waterfalls to climb again.
All due respect to ice-climbers, though - it is fucking scary!
Clare
I only have a little ice-climbing experience, but can't say I took to it. Here's why: I love the direct contact with the rock, the textures, the shapes, the guessing games. On ice you have minimal direct contact with the medium, you just shove in the metal-work and then aid on it! Weird.
Also, ice seemed to me (at least as a beginner) to test mostly brute strength, nerve and balance. Rock tests strength, nerve, balance, ingenuity, imagination, agility...
I'm glad I did it because I love the high places in winter, and now I can make a mean balakov thread. But I wouldn't go looking for frozen waterfalls to climb again.
All due respect to ice-climbers, though - it is fucking scary!
Clare
In reply to Martin P: you can say that again! theres nothing like riding a avalanche down the lost valley as i know all to much!
In reply to Clare: Brilliantly said Clare, just my thoughts on Ice after 30+ years climbing, I can't say it better. These days I don't seek it out, I'll do it to climb a particular route but I honestly just dont enjoy it, its part of the game on big hills but otherwise you can keep it.
In reply to Al Evans:
aw shucks, thanks Al! Amazing what I can come up with when I should be revising...
The tough thing is making sure you're going to do just enough on ice to keep the skills from going rusty, so they'll still be there when you need 'em.
Clare
aw shucks, thanks Al! Amazing what I can come up with when I should be revising...
The tough thing is making sure you're going to do just enough on ice to keep the skills from going rusty, so they'll still be there when you need 'em.
Clare
In reply to Clare: "Rock tests strength, nerve, balance, ingenuity, imagination, agility..." I agree Clare, but if you get the chance to climb harder weirder ice, you need all those aswell. Mixed climbing whether true Scottish style, or rather sillier Continental/N.American style - nevertheless fun, also calls for all of those aswell. Keeping iceclimbing within the bounds of acceptable safety for me requires more ingenuity than I ever use rock climbing. I think there is a lot more in common between the two than most people think, and the image of straight forward front pointing is true only of minority of ice/snow routes. I've found heel hooks useful on Scottish IVs, just like having that ingenuity or agility may make a VS more fun or less strenuous.
In reply to Clare:
you emphatically DON'T need brute strength for ice, no more than for rock. Once you realise this, you get to the stage where 'nerve, balance, ingenuity, imagination, agility',blahblah play a much more important role. And you're not using all the same holds as the previous ascentionists, so every climb has a bit of a first ascent in it. Maybe you need to go out with someone who really enjoys it to appreciate it properly.
(And btw it's an Abalakov thread).
you emphatically DON'T need brute strength for ice, no more than for rock. Once you realise this, you get to the stage where 'nerve, balance, ingenuity, imagination, agility',blahblah play a much more important role. And you're not using all the same holds as the previous ascentionists, so every climb has a bit of a first ascent in it. Maybe you need to go out with someone who really enjoys it to appreciate it properly.
(And btw it's an Abalakov thread).
In reply to jenny: Jenny, if you go ice climbing you should know that! Aren't you going on one of the Conville courses? If it was you, ask your instructor. She or he should be able to show you on some glacier ice. Basically it is two ice screw holes that meet. You push some tat through it tie a loop and then ab off. Fantastically scary first time you try it!
In reply to TobyA:
'I think there is a lot more in common between the two than most people think' - quite right, and I'm sure the fact that a number of people are now coming to the ice with a solid rock background is one of the factors in pushing Scottish standards up recently.
'I think there is a lot more in common between the two than most people think' - quite right, and I'm sure the fact that a number of people are now coming to the ice with a solid rock background is one of the factors in pushing Scottish standards up recently.
In reply to jenny and toby:
I did say I thought this was a beginner's perspective. Sadly I'm not likely ever to get beyond that stage - too unnerved by the whole business.
Toby, Jenny said "it's an abalakov.." not "what's an...".
But cheers Jenny - I was taught this by a Frenchman so maybe he just ate the first letter!
Clare
I did say I thought this was a beginner's perspective. Sadly I'm not likely ever to get beyond that stage - too unnerved by the whole business.
Toby, Jenny said "it's an abalakov.." not "what's an...".
But cheers Jenny - I was taught this by a Frenchman so maybe he just ate the first letter!
Clare
In reply to TobyA:
ta Toby, but I was just correcting the spelling in case anyone wanted to look it up (but they won't need to now after your fabulously concise explanation!).
I'm not going on a Conville course; (marginally) beyond that stage. You must be thinking of another member of the army of Jennies who go to the Alps each summer to trip over their crampons and whack holes in glaciers.
ta Toby, but I was just correcting the spelling in case anyone wanted to look it up (but they won't need to now after your fabulously concise explanation!).
I'm not going on a Conville course; (marginally) beyond that stage. You must be thinking of another member of the army of Jennies who go to the Alps each summer to trip over their crampons and whack holes in glaciers.
In reply to Clare:
I'm a newbie to both (1 Scottish winter, and this'll be my second summer of rock) and I can quite safely say that I want it to be winter forever!
You said that you enjoy the contact with the rock that summer climbs give you, but before I started winter climbing I had no idea how many different kinds of snow and ice there are, and the stunning formations they make, and the colour of white snow and blue ice when the sun is out and all the twinkly bits and rosy grinning faces in balaclavas but noone cares how silly it all is and the fact that a route changes it's character from week to week and hour to hour, and you don't really have to be that strong, but you do have to be fit enough to carry all that ironmongery clug and extra clothes and at the end of a cold day on cairngorm that whiskey never ever tasted better.
I miss winter!
Going to the alps for the first time in 8 days, hurrah!!
I'm a newbie to both (1 Scottish winter, and this'll be my second summer of rock) and I can quite safely say that I want it to be winter forever!
You said that you enjoy the contact with the rock that summer climbs give you, but before I started winter climbing I had no idea how many different kinds of snow and ice there are, and the stunning formations they make, and the colour of white snow and blue ice when the sun is out and all the twinkly bits and rosy grinning faces in balaclavas but noone cares how silly it all is and the fact that a route changes it's character from week to week and hour to hour, and you don't really have to be that strong, but you do have to be fit enough to carry all that ironmongery clug and extra clothes and at the end of a cold day on cairngorm that whiskey never ever tasted better.
I miss winter!
Going to the alps for the first time in 8 days, hurrah!!
In reply to Lucy:
Oh the joys of Scottish winter and Alpine climbing. Hmmmm my mind is now somewhere else
Oh the joys of Scottish winter and Alpine climbing. Hmmmm my mind is now somewhere else
In reply to Martin P:
My fave is deffo winter climbing. However, 'cos scottish winter's are so unpredictable, it's alot easier to have a successful summers climbing than a season of Scottish winter.
My fave is deffo winter climbing. However, 'cos scottish winter's are so unpredictable, it's alot easier to have a successful summers climbing than a season of Scottish winter.
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