UKC

These sort of threads usually descend into hystrionics along the lines of "if you don't like DTP don't read etc" so I'll try not to be too judgemental but.....

Rocktalk has deteriorated over the years, I'm sure Al will have figures that say there are more RT posts than ever but there seems to be less there of interest than ever. Whilst the numbers contributing to the forums overall are increasing massively it is still the same old hard core posting on RT minus a number who used to post regularly. It would be natural to assume that as this place becomes more popular there would be more experienced climbers but this clearly isn't the case. For istance Rob Durran started to post last week but was quickly slaughtered for no good reason, he may not come back, but this is someone has more alpine and scottish experience than most of us put together and could probably have been able to contribute a lot. I'd swap any number of John hs for a Rob Durran (or Jon Read who never seems to post anymore).

The reason most of my climbing friends don't post here is becuase they think its full of muppets spouting crap, this is less true for RT so it must be a knock on effect from DTP?

In reply to Tyler:

Hey, if you don't like it, don't re...oh, right.

In reply to Tyler:
"if you don't like DTP don't read etc"

Seriously, it seems much the same as ever to me, and I knocked DTP off my list as soon as it was launched.

In reply to Tyler: why don't you do a search and realize this thread was done last week or the week prior, start something new.


p.s. if you don't like it go somewhere else or chose not to see DTP!

In reply to Tyler: It could well be a knock on from DTP and the amount of fluffy drivel getting posted in there!

In reply to Tyler: Maybe all the good topics have been done to death already... But if you want good discusions start some

In reply to Tyler:
Surely this is just a form of evolution that is occuring, the increase in internet use is surely going to lead to more and more crap being said. It is just something to be expected as a site becomes more popular this will happen, at least it is not as bad a Planetfear.

In reply to Tyler: Most climbing sites have a 'pub' forum and it's invariably busier than any other. Couple that with the fact that UK posters are more easily offended.

For a good hiding, try post something dumb on the likes of www.boldering.com (no 'u')

Strangely enough, sites like these are prospering.

Way off topic, but have a butchers at www.squatjuice.com
well 'ard!

In reply to Tyler:
This was kind of the point I was trying to make yesterday.

Very few of the people I climb post on here any more, many of them I originaly met via UKC forums. They consider it to be banal drivel these days.

In reply to Tyler: I often just ignore the DTP stuff- whilst occasionally indulging,95 % of it I find absolute guff- I`m more interested in getting ideas for routes to do /areas to visit etc. Probably the most interesting thing about this place now As for people haranguing Rob Durran- wtf was that about???

In reply to Tyler:
This thread will soon get moved DTP, by the moderators, as mine did yesterday - completely defeating its point.

In reply to all:

Think you might be missing the point. As I said I wasn't trying to be judgemental, I like DTP its just that Rt has not evolved in the last few years like DTP has. This I think is a shame, a missed opportunity. It may not have got worse (although I do think it has) but it has certainly got worse relative to the rest of the forums.

In reply to Registered - not logged in:

Actually I think I meant to put it down the pub anyway. Posting this drivel on Rt makes me part of the problem.

In reply to Tyler:
You think im gonna bother reading this crap?

dont read RT u idiot, its not rocket science

In reply to Tyler:

Very true but it's nice to hear the opinions of other forum users, not just those who spend all day inflating their own egos dtp.

In reply to Tyler:

In that case, I haven't seen it, so can't comment, hence ignore my earlier reply. And this one

In reply to Tyler:

IMO RT could really benefit with a better seach engine or even one that could 'direct and refine' a user's search.

I think that will cut donw on a lot of 'How do I...' and 'Which...is best' type questions.

In reply to Tyler: I think that part of the problem is caused by the sheer number of posts. When I started posting a good thread would stay near the top of the page for a long time, and the sort of people who just looked in once a day would get to see it. A considered and worthwhile discussion often resulted. Nowadays any thread that isn't about the personalities of Rocktalk (if that isn't too grandiose a word for them) seems to drop off the top of the page very quickly.

Another problem is that people are too willing to call people such as Robert an arsehole for no reason - what's the reason for this? One theory to account for for the decline of civility in schools is that children spend so much time watching appalling programs such as Eastenders where the characters spend all their time engaging in fatuous confrontational arguments that they imagine this is the normal way to behave in real life.

In reply to John2:

I'm skatig on thin ice if I start to decry paople for "engaging in fatuous confrontational arguments"!

Your first point is correct a good one though.

In reply to John2:

Well put. This is a very valid point

In reply to Tyler:

I don't think that much has changed except for the number of punters.
There always was drivel but multiply that by a UKclimbing contributor increase of probably several hundred percent over the last three years and you get an increase of several hundred percent of drivel !
At least I'm still posting quality threads of rare humour,shrewd political analysis,oceanically deep philosophy,hard hitting social commentary and entertaining football analysis......with a bit of climbing thrown in of course.

In reply to chris tan:


In the absence of a "beginners forum" why do you think these types of questions are inappropriate for RT? I would have hoped that more experienced people would be happy to help those less fortunate (I would count myself in the inexperienced catagory) by giving advice on these types of matters

In reply to Tyler:

Dear Tyler

I have not used UK Climbing that long, so I can’t comment on what went on before. DTP does reflects public houses, good cha,t rubbish patter, students not holding their drink and calling each other names, and the old hag with her lipstick all over her face.

When I started climbing we went to the pub for a bevvy, not to talk about climbing, of course there were always bar-room mountaineers. Usually these bar-room mountaineers could not drink or climb. The bar-room climbers should stick to DTP.

The posters also reflect the climbing forums, some good, some bad, but that is life.

Norrie

In reply to tb:

I think that the problem lies in the repetition of questions when people could have searched to see whether the topic had come up before. however, I have to admit to not doing that with my 'alternative classic rock' thread which i'm sure has been done before. I guess that each time something comes up there might be someone different/new around to give a new answer, thus making it valid.

"Nowadays any thread that isn't about the personalities of Rocktalk (if that isn't too grandiose a word for them) seems to drop off the top of the page very quickly."

If you look at Rocktalk now the oldest post is 22.00 on Tuesday - so that's not really the case. I also think that, in general the quality of information and debate on the climbing forums is much as it has been for the last couple of years

I agree it's depressing - but it was ever so.

For those who feel the forums are full of drivel, it's important to recognise that selecting to look at DTP is a conscious choice - it doesn't appear in Forums Latest unless you want it to. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that, if DTP is an annoyance, you choose not to read it and stick to the climbing forums.

My analogy is that if I go into WH Smith to buy the Economist, get distracted by the top shelf and end up reading Penthouse - I can't really complain to Smith's that the shop is full of pictures of naked women.

(These are all personal views and not those of the management etc..)

In reply to Norrie Muir:

that sounds like a pretty spot-on assessment of UKC to me

In reply to Clare:

Dear Clare

I posted something to tb yesterday and he thanked me for a straight answer. I thought better of saying anything about how I hope his health gets better, he may not thanked me.

Norrie

In reply to Tyler:
well put, recent postings suggest another topic along the lines of
Five most numpty threads-
I'll summarise my five into:

how do i get to pembroke/ keswick from m6.../ chamonix

best routes of [] grade at []

The basic problems seem to stem from an absolute lack of initiative/ desire to discover/ ability to read a map or guide (both of which are quite helpful skills on crags and in mountains).

A third to add would be around ethics

In reply to Clare:

Dear Clare

This is a climbing forum, so I am different on this forum, people who do not know me jump to their conclusions about me to easy.

I keep my contempt for DTP and the bar-room climbers.

Norrie

In reply to Tyler:



Exactly .. that's the problem. There's a wealth of valuable information out there which is untapped because so many people (in my experience) dismiss it the forum as 'cocktalk'.

Not sure what the solution is though.

In reply to tobyfk:

The culprits know who they are.

Perhaps they just don't care that they are diluting a useful resource to such an extent that it becomes less & less useful as time goes by.
Ultimately the site will become a waste of space to climbers (i.e.it's target group - this may come as a surprise to some.....), and will die a natural death.

Shame.

In reply to Tyler:

I think a definite improvement would be if there was a more tolerant attitude to climbing discussion on here, and if people were more encouraged to exchange views and explore issues raised in people's topics. As it is there seems to be a curiously hostile attitude to actually discussing climbing on here, and I think this is a part (cause or effect I don't know) of the problem you're highlighting.

This might be the knock-on effect of a more casual and thoughtless approach perhaps transferred from DTP, i.e. if someone is discussing climbing, just wade in and either slag them off or complain that they shouldn't be discussing the issues at all (or sometimes both), rather than taking the extra mental effort to think about the issues raised?? But I'm not sure really....I don't see that much "cross-pollination" of posters.

Or maybe because it has got an inadequate and misguided reputation (which fails to acknowledge how useful and interesting it can be as a climbing resource), it ends up as a vicious circle - people who would be genuinely interested in discussing climbing are frightened away, thus leaving a smaller number of keen climbers in amongst people who are more interested in reacting and dismissing than discussing?? In which case perhaps one should encourage one's non-visiting climbing friends to be positive and active and actually contribute to make this into a place they'd enjoy, rather than ignore it and let the problem worsen.

At any rate, I think we can all do our bit to promote good (whether it's argumentative or sharing, serious or lighthearted, anecdotal or abstract) climbing discussion and climbing chat on here...

In reply to Anonymous:

So no discussion of destinations, our favourite routes, grades and styles of ascent, then? That takes a rather large chunk out of any discussion about climbing.

On the face of it the posts of the sort you suggest do indicate a general laziness. However, if such threads then lead to a wider discussion beyond the original request for information (as they sometimes do) then is it such a bad thing?

In reply to Norrie Muir:


Dear Norrie

When I met you down the pub, I didn't like you, and I believe I've been known to say so.
That said, your post above is one of the wittiest I've seen, and I take my hat off to you. Are you really two different people?

In reply to Norrie Muir:
a bit o bar-room mountaineer verse for you (from the 1970's)

Come all you Glencoe tigers, if ye'll only lend an ear,
I'll tell ye o' a creature called the bar-room mountaineer.
Ye'll know him when you see him, when ye look him in the teeth,
For he's either oan the table or mair likely underneath.

He sings and shouts and looks the part, brags o all his stunts,
In his Joe Brown shirt, his Haston hat and his Bonnington Y-fronts,
but the climb that he's most famous for, it's known both near and far,
as the double traverse o the gantry in the Clachaig public bar.

In reply to Steven Martin:

Dear Steven

I am one person, but have more than one dimension to me. I know I should not wind up the carboard cut- outs in DTP, but cheap shots can be fun.

Norrie

In reply to ian mclelland:

I presume there's a verse about him wearing his harness to the pub as well!

In reply to ian mclelland:
Superb! :

In reply to tb:

No - but there's a line about using Sherpas to guide him up the Signal Rock!

In reply to Tyler:
To an extent the problems you've outlined are always going to crop up. A thread will start on one topic, then someone will head off at a tangent, someone will make a really good witty remark, then someone will wade in with a load of drivel and bring his mates along. I'm as guilty as anyone of this, but I try to keep it to DTP.
As regards people posting "search thread blah, blah blah", that's all well and good if it's given as advice, but just slaughtering someone for asking a question is out of order IMHO. Even if the topic has been done before, someone might mention something that everyone, even the more experienced climber, might think is useful. More interesting reading than "Five favourite colours of chalk" at any rate.
Much as I hate regulation, maybe it would be possible to bar certain members from RT or Gear or whatever if they insist on posting insults and meaningless ranting.

In reply to Ridge@work:

I'd quite like to see an option to turn off individual posters' remarks, although I'd wonder what I was missing. Thing is, you can never tell how other people see your own posts, so how can you try to moderate your own posting?

In reply to Tyler:

by way of example......... Maxine Carr's mum thread which should be deleted.

In reply to psdatwork:
Fair point, but generally speaking "psdatwork smells of poo 'cos he can't climb as well as me" probably isn't worth posting

In reply to Ridge@work:

you know, I almost considered signing up with a different name purely to make the same point

In reply to tb:

I'm sure it will in due course. But if you notice, it's from an anonymous with the same listed AOL address (and I know they change every time you dial up) who's been posting bilge all week. Perhaps some immature pre-teen bunking off from school?

In reply to Horse:
Yes, I thought that. If such discussions aren't allowed, I'm wondering what would be allowed?

As Fiend says, there does seem to be a certain lack of tolerance towards questions asked in complete innocence. Of course many answers to questions could be found by looking up guidebooks or maps or whatever, but a major benefit of asking questions here is getting the opinions of more than one person. Slagging people off for being somehow 'less worthy' does not reflect well on the climbing community (whatever that is).

In reply to JayH:

Perhaps some immature pre-teen bunking off from school?

Of course! exam time so they all have revision time off from school!

Could just ban unregistered users.... would get rid of some of the dross

In reply to Tyler: very perceptive last sentence, that's why people with a lot to say don't post.

In reply to Tyler:
I find that the number of climbing related threads stays the same whilst down the pub fluctuates.
I don't recall the Rob Durran post so I can't comment on it.
Experienced climbers? Doesn't that strike you as being a little elitist?

In reply to Anonymous:

>Five most numpty threads-
>I'll summarise my five into:
>how do i get to pembroke/ keswick from m6.../ chamonix
>best routes of [] grade at []

I'm not sure I agree with the former. You can't tell the best way from London to the Roaches from a map: you need to know which road is stiff with speed cameras, which one the traffic is always awful on, and so forth.

I see your point with the latter, but I always find it interesting enough when it's a crag I don't know. When it's Stanage it's a bit dull, but we all had to start somewhere.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

Even when it's a crag you've been to alot it can be interesting to see other people's perspective. A list is going to be boring, however, if people give reasons and put a personal perspective to any routes they are suggesting it can tell you a lot more than just reading the guidebook ever will.
What's really annoying is when the same topic comes up every two weeks. I can understand repetition over long periods as things and people change and the archiving of threads prevents resurecting the old ones, it's just when people don't bother to search.

In reply to Swirly:

In my experience, the most useful threads ask a direct question, and get an answer within 2 or 3 posts. Thread closed.
The rest is mostly drivel, but I rarely read it, so I don't care.
I just use the site as a source of good, often obscure information.

M

In reply to Swirly:

I don't mind repetitive topics quite so much if they have a clear title - then I can easily ignore them. I do wonder why they happen so much though - why don't people do searches first?

In reply to Tyler:

I think its a pity we don't talk more about routes we've done, crags we've visited etc...
Trip reports, tales of long-past epics, or just general ramblings...
I liked the threads about water and trees for that...

In reply to tony:

There is another part to this as well. Most people don't know what they don't know but know that they don't know something (if you see what I mean). Therefore they ask and apparently simple question to see how things develop and somewhere along the line they find the thing they really need to know. This is not unique to RT or indeed the internet, it is common to most walks of life.

In reply to Red Sonja:

Yes it's odd. There's remarkably little on here about the detailed act of climbing. There have been innumerable mentions of the grade, quality, applicability to top 5 lists of blah blah for, say, Three Pebble Slab, yet never a mention of what it actually feels like to step out of that weird deep slot and smear up the slab ...

In reply to tobyfk:

I dunno whether Sonja is subtly taking the piss or not, but I am making a special effort to encourage people to talk about their experiences and share their anecdotes (because of course I agree it's interesting to hear about, well, climbing).

In reply to Fiend:

Indeed you are. No complaints from here, though some of the syntax of your thread titles: a touch convoluted?

In reply to Fiend:

No, I wasn't.
(I'm not that subtle !)

In reply to Norrie Muir:

i hope that is not in reference to me mr muir