UKC

Having just brought DM,s book 9 out of 10 climbers I've been wondering about the advice given to tall climbers, the basic grip I gathered was to move quickly and dynamicaly avoiding static holds, basically use momentum to your advantage and avoid peak load by moving through the holds.

I am not comfortable moving dynamically outside and above gear to holds I don't know, has anyone got any suggestions on how I can tackle this, all the climbing i have done so far has been trad VS max grade, I know practicing falling is mentioned in the book and I will try but on the routes and pro options I've been on so far I don't think falling would have been a great scenario.

As well as this I like to know any tips on training for more dynamic movement - something I can do indoors and on the climbing wall etc.

Thanks

In reply to major stabby: Try traversing using one hand on a vertical wall. Good for learning dynamic movement as well as balance and body and foot positioning. Good to try leading and trailing hand, as both are very different.

In reply to major stabby:

I think this is more about sport routes and those you know well, sooner or later you will meet a loose hold that you had put all your faith in!

There is a fine line between flowing smoothly, moving dynamically and just 'lunging & hoping'! But perhaps that's what has stopped me pushing up the grades, I'm just to cautious at times.

In reply to major stabby:


I've not read the book in question, but are you sure that he means that you should be dynoing and slapping your way up the route? I would think that a flowing style, without stopping dead at each move, could be what the author is referring to - i.e you conserve your momentum, but maintain control.

I think that this is relatively easy to practice. Just try to always cover ground as smoothly as possible. Plan the route before you set off up it. Spot positions that are obvious rests, and plan all the moves up to that point, aiming not to stop until you get there. Visualise yourself doing the moves. I'm not tall, but I had a phase where I actively tried to climb as flowingly and smoothly as possible, and it certainly paid off for me.

In reply to major stabby:

Do you need to at VS?

I'm guessing you do it indoors when you need to because you're climbing a lot harder than you ever would outside. If you're not comfortable throwing yourself about above your gear then don't, it's occasionally useful when other options are obviously worse/impossible but throwing blindly for holds you don't know is a recipe for surprises! I'm not really sure where height comes into it besides the added leverage and weight that comes with being tall. If you find yourself bunched up, use different holds (as a stretched out shorty would).

Having not read the book maybe I've misinterpreted what you're saying?

jk

In reply to major stabby:

I'm 6ft 5 and dont really have that much of a problem using static holds, however, I do prefer moving quick on some routes. I think it's hard to make a general comment like DM has, it depends on the route.

To the person who replied above me, I like these ideas and will give them ago.

In reply to The Green Giant: Sorry I mean Chris F

In reply to major stabby:
Start bouldering more for training dynamic moves.

For flow, try long indoor route climbing or sport climbs and try and focus on keeping a steady, controlled, rhythm of upwards movement. Somewhere like the foundry headwall is good for this as if you stop your more likely to get umped out and fal off.

Start easy, then apply the skills to harder stuff.

In reply to major stabby: Being a lanky sod myself we are bad at mantles, locking off, small holds and high rock overs. I would practice those things first for trad climbing. I think DM is saying that a dynamic, reaching through method suits us as we don't have to use the smaller holds for long on our large stubby fingers. Both mantles and rock overs involve dynamic movement. Try seconding/top roping the next couple of grades up and you'll soon realise if you can lead them and what you need to concentrate on (stamina, power etc).

In reply to major stabby:
I've read the book and I'm in this catagory too. The way I read it is simply that due to having bigger hands and being heavier, taller climbers won't be able to hang on for so long on small holds, so keep moving. In addition, moves where you have to lock off quite low with one hand to reach up with the other will be proportionally harder due to the extra weight and the fact that you are locking off lower down your body than a smaller climber, so these kind of moves should be done as a semi-dynamic deadpoint type move, swinging yourself up quickly by pushing with your legs and taking the next hold at the high point of your swing. Did you read the bit about climbing by swinging like an ape? That's what he means.
It certainly helps for me and for indoor climbing it really just means that I try to keep moving quite quickly and just go for the next move straight away without hanging around in strenuous positions getting pumped stupid while I'm looking for an easier option that isn't there.

In reply to The Green Giant:

Yep agree, chris F has offered some very usefull advice, I'll be trying that out at the wall and as part of my routine.

In reply to Dan Mckinlay:

I have noticed Rockovers being an issue - Especially if the foot holds are close and these seem to stall me quite lot so will pay some attention here too

In reply to Robin Laidlaw:

Yer I sort of got that ape bit ......but in my head can't merge this with climbing that way outside - I am concious that I may be learning to climb one way inside above mats but on outdoor leads it's all a bit more "carefull" and looking for holds in an exploritory seeking kind of way. I think that a longer steeper route ( no ground/ledges to hit) might be the way forward.

In reply to jkarran:

Probally not, and I think that of I just have a shot at a harder route it would probally go, and if it was a little blanker i'd probally not mind falling off so much.

In reply to major stabby: If you are only climbing up to VS I think you need to take the book with a pinch of salt. Most VS climbing is not very sustained and there are often plenty of resting places in between moves. I would focus more on getting out, enjoying your climbing and growing in confidence. The more confident you are in your ability, the less inclined you are to become worried about your gear or lack of it.

In reply to major stabby:

I think as you say, it will start to make more sense when you are tackling steeper routes outside. With a couple of exceptions on steep VS's, things start to steepen up at HVS and E1 and you do start to find yourself having to make big committing moves to obviously good holds and often the best way to do it is with a deadpoint.

Dynamic doesn't necessarily mean imprecise - by using deadpoints you are catching holds while you are momentarily motionless and can be a very precise way of moving - and is often the least strenuous way of making certain moves. Dynamic is a whole spectrum from just using a bit of momentum from your hips to make what would be a static move slightly less strenuous, to long moves that you can't reach statically by springing from your legs but where both feet stay on, to a full blown all points off dyno. IME most people who don't like moving dynamically think that when you say 'dynamic' you mean Chris Sharma style dynos. Really all 'dynamic' means is timing your movement so that you're using momentum to your advantage.

Agreed that dynamic movement isn't necessarily appropriate if you can't see what you are going to and need to feel around for holds, and going statically so you can see what you are going to and reverse if necessary, might be better. But I think DM's point is partly that most people climb like this as a matter of course, even when a more dynamic style might be more appropriate.

Do you do much Sport climbing? it might be a good way to get used to moving in a more dynamic style on rock, in an environment where it (usually) doesn't really matter if you fluff it and miss a hold you're deadpointing to.

In reply to major stabby:

Using momentum and conserving it is generally a good thing but you do have to alter your climbing style to suit your physiology and the route. You might have a lot of strength but little explosive power in which case you may find that you do moves with static reaches that others do with dynos. As a tall climber you should find it less necessary to use dynamic movement to extend your reach than a shorter climber would. On a slab its generally much better to stay static rather than fling your mass about on precise moves that need a tight control of balance and rotation.

What DM means is that you should be climbing fluidly and thinking about sequences of moves rather than making one move, stopping, thinking and then repeating. There is a lot of ground between conservative "3 points of contact at all times" climbing and a sequance of jumps between holds.

In fact classic dynos are almost the opposite of fluid climbing. As a classic dyno goes through a period of "dynamic balance" where unless the move is successfully completed you will fall that generally means that you have to stop all momentum at some point during the move. Even a well executed deadpoint catch ends up in a static hold with no momentum left (that is the meaning of deadpoint the point at the top of a jump where you have no momentum). Watch people doing dynos on bolder problems they go from a static position through an unstable position to grab a good hold on which they then have to kill any remaining momentum before it takes them off the problem and get stationary before setting up the next jump.

What DM is talking about is different. That is using your momentum from the last move to set up the next. Using your momentum from one reach to execute the turn or step needed to set up the next. This can be done within static, in balance, climbing (i.e. if you reach for a hold and it turns out to be cr@p or non existant you can hold on while you feel for another or reverse the move). You will however have to move hands and feet at the same time so you can't use a "3 points of contact" regime. What you are aiming for is to keep your centre of mass moving up the climb. Occasionally, classicly with rockovers, you will need to use momentum to take you through a "stall point" but that should be from one point of balance to another. In a well executed rockover you are in balance bellow your hand and footholds and are then in balance above them with a peak load stall point where your centre is on the line between the handhold and the foothold. Ideally you make your reach then to help make the new point of balance more stable but even if you can't your momentum ought to take you to a point of balance on your existing holds.

The best thing to do to cultavate it is exercises like line and flag or moving side in to cultivate balance and an idea of the fluidity of movement.

In reply to davidwright:



I'm not disagreeing with what you're suggesting but it's not what Dave Mac is talking about in 9 out of 10 climbers.

p.39
We feel the need to apply momentum most strongly on the really small holds. There is no other option to initiate the next move. However this momentum,. and the dynamic movement that accompanies it, should also be applied even on the bigger holds, where we could do the move statically. The reason is that momentum produces efficiency. Less force is needed at the fingers and more of it comes from the lower body or momentum of the body mass that started from a lower, more advantageous position for generating force. Thus more upper body strength is saved for higher up the route. For this reason, momentum should be used on nearly every move.

[...] And although carrying momentum from one move into the next is an ideal, it's rarely achievable for most climbers, who cannot climb quickly enough without sacrificing too much accuracy.


Dave is talking about dynamic initiation of individual moves being the most efficient way to do that individual move.

In reply to major stabby:

Actually while I think 9 out of 10 climbers is great, personally the bit on dynamic movement initiation I find hard to follow. The Self Coached Climber explains the same concepts but more clearly with diagrams - it also has quite a significant section on movement initiation and dynamic movement using drills like one arm traversing (mentioned above) easy double dynos, movement awareness exercises, etc.

It's well worth having a copy if you're interested in this stuff.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

To be honest what he is mainly talking about there is initiating and driving movement from the legs and/or hips/core rather than the arms and the desirability of taking the moving hand off its starting hold before your centre of mass has reached its next balance point. You will often see climbers struggling because a reluctance to let go of a hold that has lost its usefulness will stop them getting into balance for the next reach.


Ideally in a sequence of 4-5 moves, any of which could be halted at any point, if the holds or sequence turned out to be poor, you would initiate movement only once rather than perhaps 8-10 times. The only reason to bounce is to extend reach.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

so do you mean start each move from the feet, generate movement and then move hands? Sounds like it would be dynamic ---- also I agree that the book is very good too!

In reply to major stabby:

being short and fat with a BMI of c30 I find dynamic movement to be a more essential skill for me than my longer lanky mates!

As others have said I think if you're climbing VS then 9/10 climbers is perhaps overkill. I have been reading and enjoying it but it assumes a level of basic knowledge and skill as a prerequisite. Maybe the Self Coached Climber (that Dave goes on about) might cover this... though I haven't read it. Maybe my old site as well (shameless plug!) http://climbing.tropic.org.uk

Get out climbing more, and maybe start some sport (though I think you need to be able to climb french 6a to start getting into UK sport, no)?

Btw I am tall, and DM's synopsis of tall climber's strengths and weaknesses totally applies to me... my main weakness on trad is looking for perfect holds and an easy sequence when sometimes I just need to give it some welly. "make the hold bigger" is the new mantra

In reply to major stabby:

Interpreting the DM quote Nick posted above I read that as saying you should use your momentum to reduce the peak load applied to small or hard to hold holds.

Take for example a pair of crimps, left one high and poor, right one low and good. You need to move your right hand up. You could pull like a horse on the poor left making the move by the skin of your teeth. Or... you could generate the bulk of your momentum off the right before releasing it and using the left fairly lightly as an intermediate to hold you in and keep you moving. Basically, he's on about conserving strength/energy by moving past hard to use/hold grips and positions, moving from positions of relative comfort into positions of relative comfort using momentum/timing to reduce the difficulty of the transition.

Where he's talking about stringing it all together I think he's being a little idealistic if he's implying you should conserve your initial momentum. I think the reality is you break sequences down into moves you can pause at/in and those you have to move through. You use the easier moves/holds to set you up for the harder ones.

A route I was trying at the weekend involves a big dynamic move off two small-ish crimpy pockets. From below they're ok but they'd be poor if I had to use them statically. So the trick is to build your momentum off them from below while they're good reducing how hard you have to pull to keep you in as you pass them. If you time it right you unload one well enough you can slap up into the next holdable position at the deadpoint. That position is again hard to hold so you carefully shift you weight, foot and hips to improve matters then gather momentum to move back up through the bad position to better holds. All those moves could be done statically (indeed I have done them that way to see which way felt best) but they're much much easier if you really make the holds and momentum work for you. Throughout all of that the feet practically stay put, those aren't wild leaps, it's just using timing to reduce the load on/in the poorest holds/positions.

jk

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

I don't think some of the more advanced technique applies *that* well to easier routes which are, if you're doing them right usually very short sequences between rests. Arguably exploiting the rests is more important to begin with than improving efficiency between them. I see what you're saying but whenever I try to think of examples to illustrate a technique I find myself thinking of boulder problems and tricky steep indoor sequences, not well traveled low-mid grade trad.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

Yep I deleted that post as on reflection I was missing the point somewhat.

That being said I do think that initiating movement dynamically and using deadpoints to catch poor holds is an important skill and the sooner learned the better. While you only tend to meet mandatory dynamic moves at a certain level outdoors, it's something which is quite trainable indoors on steep juggy problems, and I can think of a number of routes off the top of my head at HVS and below where a dynamic approach, while not being necessary, is probably the easiest way to do the crux.

think of the dynamic movement mentioned in the book as making a move you could/would/are do/doing statically easier. he does not mean (in my opinion) that the dynamic movement should be used to reach further necessarily or be snatching at holds etc etc..

its all about conserving strength and making the most of what you've got.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:


Good point. Being a weak/lazy boulderer at heart that tends to be my normal climbing style so it only really becomes apparent how different each approach feels when it all gets a bit hard and I'm forced to try different sequences/moves.
jk

In reply to plexiglass_nick: I know you deleted the post (sorry) but I disagree with the bit jk quoted too Like 9/10 climbers says, you're better off focusing on your weakest point which in the case of the OP is likely to be more basic techniques than in that book.

I don't dispute that a VS leader should be focused on trying to improve their grade, if that's what they want. Definitely! But there's not much point starting work on an A level maths book if you haven't mastered the GCSE material yet...

Or maybe this guy is already at GCSE level, I don't know. My point is that 9/10 climbers assumes some level of knowledge/skill before you start reading it.

And maybe I'm missing the point a bit because maybe some sections of 9/10 are relevant at all levels, and maybe momentum is one of them (along with falling practice)

In reply to major stabby:

The first push to start the move and as much of the force in the move as possible should come from the feet with the hands used to stabilise the base and maintain balance rather than provide force for movement. Far more often this means standing up or steping sideways rather than jumping, falling or anything that involves dynamic balance. Use your momentum but do so under control rather than leaping for things.

In reply to Stone Muppet:

Partly I agree with you and partly not. I think the essense of my disagreement is in the analogy - I think climbing, unlike Maths, is a practical skill which is the product of a subset of physical abilities, and your overall ability is always going to be limited by the weaket link in the chain. I think a better analogy would be learning to play the piano, where overall ability is composed of technique, finger dexterity, expression, improvisation, theory, etc.

If you'll let me run with the analogy a bit longer, 9/10 climbers is the book that tells you how it all fits together. So you don't get endlessly lost in spending hours playing scales when the thing that really lets your piano playing down is that you lack expression - your playing sounds too mechanical.

I would argue that saying you don't need to think about movement quality until you reach E1/6b/some arbitrary grade is a bit like saying you don't need to worry about playing expressively and musically until you get to grade 5. I think what the point of 9/10 climbers is, is that many climbers do is get to a particular level without having thought about, say, dynamic movement as you can get away with not being 100% efficient at a lower level, and suddenly realise that they are doing the equivalent of failing their grade 5 exam because their expression or dynamic range or some other ability is stuck at grade 2.

sorry I've laboured that analogy a bit too hard now.

In reply to major stabby:

I actually think DMs book is a brilliant resource, well written and pertinent, but I strongly disagree with his views on tall climbers.

Whilst momentum and flow are key weapons to be employed by all climbers, the specific advice to tall climbers about climbing with the strong and dynamic pop of shorter climbers is off the mark. In my view, this sort of style tends to encourage the taller climbers greater mass and longer levers to work against them. All the good tall climbers that I know / can think of tend to adopt a sort of slinky, shoulder rolly style, making the most of reach, moving around holds rather than past them and avoiding too much cutting of feet. Tall climbers don't have the right shape for DM's advocated aspirational style of climbing.

Also, a great majority of the best trad onsighters I know / can think of have a distincly static, methodical style - this is, on average, the best approach to hard / bold trad onsighting.

In reply to Stone Muppet:

Sport 6a seems easier - certainly safer and although I like the gym aspect of sport it's not really my bag, it's a little 2d and I like the extra dimesion of trad - I'll take a squint at your website thx

In reply to The Flying Giraffe:

That's exactly what's it looks like they do on the vids and makes a lot more sense (from my view!)

In reply to The Flying Giraffe: hmmm.... i'm quite tall and find that i end up using dynamic movement a lot, especially when bouldering. I only started about a year ago, and i'm just starting to try to learn a stronger methodical approach like you say for harder routes. although leaping about is fun!

To me that basically sounds like he's referring to things harder than a VS. As for practicing falling, I would do that indoors on an overhanging wall and not outside when trad climbing up to VS having fallen and broken my ankle myself leading a severe.

To best execute a movement with what you've got is different from everyone else. Personally, my advantage in height can mean I can occasionally skip holds that I find too strenuous but in turn others can be made more difficult (like when climbing overhangs). I work on these problems to become more confident at them doing pull ups and bouldering short overhangs on good holds to practice the technique and movement I need to execute to get up an overhang.

My favourite is practicing climbing with no hands.
Get a slabby wall and walk up a grade 3 or 4 to the top. No using features, or holds, or edges with your hands; just place them flat on the slab and smear. It's amazing how much you can trust the strength in your legs afterwards and reduce the strain on your arms when climbing harder grades.

All my training is done on an indoor wall but I find it really does help with outdoor trad (I climb up to VS).

In reply to Palindrome:

It depends on why you want to climb, but assuming its to improve outside trad, and you're climbing at up to VS, forget this over-analysing of climbing technique at the wall, and do as EeebyGum suggests above.

In reply to Jim Hamilton:

How tall is DM anyhow?

In reply to major stabby:

It's a lot easeier to do this indoors where the vast majority of moves a plainly obvious. It is a sign of climbing well however that you do climb smoothly but I've always thought that the ability to hang on grimly now and again was alo very useful!

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Ive got a pretty good death grip for those one 2 one moments

In reply to major stabby:

There are some usefull tips in this thread, and it shows some of the different ways people do things. Try them out, and see which suit you best.

In reply to major stabby:

What I meant to say was - I've got a good death cling!

In reply to sutty:

Very much agree - I tried the leading with one hand but found it almost impossible as the wall was overhanging and I stuggled to stay on (once let go) but um planning a trip to the peak this weekend and will try the slab walking and also the static (death grip) hold foraging techniques !!

Thanks to everybody who has contibuted and hopefully others have benifited too!

In reply to major stabby:

Being a particularly tall, heavy, but reasonably powerful build myself, think a 6 ft 2 and just over 100kg

I have to agree with Mr Dave, I don't do roped climbing (just bouldering), but I very much have to try and keep my momentum and move dynamically to avoid wasting energy, since although my *death grip* one handed grip etc is half decent, anytime I want to push for harder problems which put me near the limit of my grip strength I have to concentrate firmly on my technique to avoid tiring my fingers out early on.
I think it also helps to try and bring your legs into play wherever possible, as it is much more efficient to try and generate power from the legs in big dynamic moves then relying solely on upper body strength, again it also saves your arm strength/power endurance for harder moves later on

My two pence.