UKC

My partner and I have been climbing less than a year(mainly on grit)and though I have a clear understanding of the issues of ethics re: placing of gear and style of ascents including preservation of the rock and surrounding areas.Whilst climbing last week a group of climbers were toproping a known 3 star hvs clinb-this led to some comments from other climbers about wearing out routes etc. Although so far I have only gone for onsighting leads around vd/vs can I have advice on the general feeling re,toproping/lowering off what type of route would this be acceptable on if at all.As this may be thesafest way to climb over the winter months when the grit is damp kind replys only please BrianB.

Brian,

It seems that climbers are getting more and more concerned about when it is ethical to top rope a route and when it is not. I am a keen gritstone climber who is currently leading at E1. Despite this I enjoy top roped climbing. I am not ashamed to say that I have top roped climbs before I have lead them. This is right down to classic lines such as Paradise Wall @ Stanage.
Away from this there are those who feel unsecure at leading climbs and wish only to climb with the use of a tope rope. That makes them no less of a climber than you or I. Everyone is entitled to use the rock and I believe it should not be restricted because the climber decides to use a top rope. Whatever next, will the guide books give restrictions on whether the climb is lead only, top rope or lead or top rope only? The more restrictions like these are put in place, the lesser number of people who will be able to enjoy the outdoors including youth groups and the disabled.

My feeling is that you should continue to top rope if you do not feel safe to lead. If climbers do pester you with views of there own, fight your corner and remind them that they once started on a top rope.

I am now going to beat a hasty retreat from my soap box

Dave Mason

Yep I agree with you mate. Plus ive seen lots of the lighter graded routes with some of the rock come away possibly due to it having seen loads of gear put in and fallen on so you may as well practice on a top rope.

Hmmmm.... Seems to me that there are no rights or wrongs in climbing except those we make for ourselves, just like in life. If you allow the parallel with life, then I suppose that anything is OK as long as you don't encounter someone else who can give you a watertight, logical reason for not doing it - at which point you stop doing it, hopefully...

Issues like crag-erosion, real touchable issues, only point us toward less intensive use of popular routes, whether on top-rope or on the lead.

I value my on-sight leads much more highly than my other ascents, but at the last consideration there is no moral issue there at all, except that which you may wish to read into it yourselves.

My friend prefers to do routes on top-rope. I prefer to lead on-sight. What are we to do to have a god day at the crag, seeing as he climbs at least one British technical grade above me?

The answer is to bruise the environment as little as you can, with regard to long-standing top-rope paths and long-standing trade-routes for leaders. Find an interesting place to go, away from the crowds. As a beginner, I found that tough, but it stood both me and my friend well over the years.

Happy climbing.

Greg

A group of climbers top-roping an HVS....wouldnt be Orpheus wall would it? I had to wait three trips to get my chance to lead that. Surely large groups should not be tollerated when they attempt to monopolise a route for hours, particularly if most of them are clearly not up to it: flailing and hardly doing a move properly on the route does increase wear over controlled climbing.

I don't see that there is anything wrong with top roping per se, what gives it a bad name is groups of people, who are not really up the climb monopolising it for hours, each having about 6 goes, spending most of time flailing around on the end of the rope

Hmmm. Top roping. The gey area seems to lie in the middle of the grades. No one would have a go at a total beginner for toproping a VD because they dont have the necessary skills to be able to climb safely without the aid of a top rope. At the other end of the scale are the routes at the E6/7 and above . On sights of routes at these grade are becoming more common but alot of ascents are still carried out with top rope inspection. But what of the grades in the middle? A climber top roping an E3 obviously has some degree of skill, so surely that could be put to better use on-sighting a lower graded climb or indeed trying to onsight a 'safe' E3 (and there are lots of them). Having said this, pre practise on a top rope gives you a good psycological boost and can improve your onsightng ability as you get more at ease with doing hard(er) moves in a scary place. Who is to say that it is right for a E5 climber to on sight E7 yet it is unacceptable for an E1 climber to headpoint an E4. You may think I have contradicted myself here but it is up to the individual to decide which path he/she wishes to follow. The point at which it does become acceptable is when people just top rope routes as an exercise. If you want to do laps on something then go to the wall. Continuous abuse does indeed damage routes, especially harder ones which are dependant upon smears etc. You only have to look at Downhill Racer (Froggat) for a good example. This is getting very polished but how many times have you seen it soloed. This only makes things harder/less enjoyable for a would-be on sight assensionist. At the end of the day though, it has to be a personnal decision.

Ooops.
What I was going to say is that I personally don't like
top-roping on crags as I don't find it as interesting as
leading. I also don't like seeing other people top roping
and would perhaps have a quiet mumble to myself
about it. However, I have to agree that it is your choice to
top rope as long as you don't hog the route. I do feel
that you see too many people failing miserably on a
route when if they dropped their grade a few notches
and lead a much easier route they would be having a
lot more fun and would soon build up the
ability/confidence to lead much harder things. Basically
i think that top ropers are missing out.

I couldn`t agree more with Monk`s comments. People appear hellbent on raising their grade NOW rather than working it up gradually.If people are hogging a route on TR tho, I do more than have a quiet mumble.Lummox`s don`t take kindly to that kind of behaviour.

If I was top roping a route and you came along and wanted to lead it, I would step asside for you, whoever you are!

Nothing wrong with to ropeing as long as you are cosiderate to others.

I have never TR at Horseshoe Q honest(liar, liar nickers on fire Stu)

I think that Monk should consider that there might be a number of reasons a person is top roping.
After climbing for about forty years I've past my leading peak and have done most routes in the Peak District, up to my leading grade, dozens of times. Therefor the only way to enjoy all those great looking routes that are just out of my reach is to top rope them, unless I can find a willing leader.
As I get older and climbing becomes harder my top roping grade is going to come down through all the classics. But even when 100 years old I'll still be able to jam better than some of you sissies.

Two things spring to mind. The first is giving routes stars. The routes that suffer the most from top-roping are the ones with two or more stars, the classics, when there are some super routes at all grades that don't get any stars and are never top-roped or polished. Are the guidebooks to blaim? You don't see people queueing up to top-rope some route with no stars!
The second is people who top-rope things at the E1/2/3 grade can climb well enough to do the route (just) but don't take their time to work up to that grade and on-sight it. Also I've seen alot top-ropers not taking the time to clean their boots and set of with grit on the bottom of their boots and polishing up holds or using too much chalk. An experinced on-sighter takes their time to get all the elements right before they set off. Take the time to learn and the enjoyment of a route is far more rewarding having on-sighted it ground up.

On the star issue -

We have had extensive discussions on this in the past. These are summarised here. Suffice to say your argument is too simplistic since there are many other factors which come into play when people choose routes, and these factors are often the smae as those used by guidebook writers to assign stars. Removal of the stars will not necessarily change the set of routes chosen by climbers.

(Apologies to Bob for bringing this one up again but I couldn't let it lie).

Alan

In addition to what's already been said about 'giving way' to those who want to lead, and not monopolising a route (though IMHO this applies whether 6 people are top-roping or leading): so long as the top rope is set up properly, so as not to erode the top of the crag, then I can't see any p[roblem with it. It's not what I enjoy, but so what, who am I to dictate what others get up to?

Top roping does mean you are less of a climber than the guy who on sights just the same as Seb Coe was a better runner than I ever was. And all this cobblers about it's ok to toprope is just political correctness applied to climbing. By all means top rope but why not drop a couple of grades and on sight? Then you are as good a climber as anyone else who onsights that route!
Steve

Because, like many people, I can climb harder than I can lead and the only way I'm going to improve on the harder routes is to climb them as a second. It then depends on whether whoever I'm climbing with can lead the harder route; if he can't but we'd still like to enjoy 'seconding' a harder climb, then we'll top-belay (not top-rope), and do the climb that way. I don't feel a lesser person or climber for doing so and it's essentially no different from seconding a route climbed in the usual way except that no leader was involved and no pro was place en route (and no-one would have had to wait their turn for the route any longer than if it had been led and seconded).

Happy climbing,

Liz

Liz replied - "> but why not drop a couple of grades and on sight?

Because, like many people, I can climb harder than I can lead and the only way I'm going to improve on the harder routes is to climb them as a second. It then depends on whether whoever I'm climbing with can lead the harder route; if he can't but we'd still like to enjoy 'seconding' a harder climb, then we'll top-belay (not top-rope), and do the climb that way. I don't feel a lesser person or climber for doing so and it's essentially no different from seconding a route climbed in the usual way except that no leader was involved and no pro was place en route (and no-one would have had to wait their turn for the route any longer than if it had been led and seconded)."

I accept your point for sport climbing but not for trad routes. Most people fail far more frequently on trad routes because their 'head' gives way before their arms and you can't train your head on a top-rope. Also I have always found that I get twice as pumped leading than on a top-rope, hence stamina training is better achived by leading as well. The only thing you can probably benefit is power.

Alan

Alan wrote:


Eh?? What's 'headpointing' then?


See ya,

al

You only have to go to roaches at weekend.First sign of trouble 10 minibuses at the gate.Then you see them like fleas on a stray cat,scratching and snapping pebbles on the lower tier.I saw one bloke abing down Obsession fatale in plastic boots last month.I think toproping has a place but only on a hard route you are going to lead.

Okay Al, there is 'head pointing', but what else have the top climbers done for us...?

Actually with headpointing you just train yourself for a specific climb by familiarising yourself with the moves and removing, or lessening, the fear factor. If you really want to push your onsight ability of both sport and trad routes then it's the sharp end or nowt! I have the statistics to prove it.

I think wer'e loosing the thread now I was asking about the ethics of toproping not the EGO'S . I don't intend to toprope to push my grade just to climb safely through the winter months and was concerned about the feeling of climbers who know the score.I do not intend to go into hvs on toprope as it will ruin my chances of a genuine onsight once I can get my head round it -yes I can also climb higher grades when I know the rope will only go tight but i'm fooling no-one. Just one last thing Dave Mason refering to being a E1 climber it was obvious he was'nt bragging but mearly quantifing his ability to reply sensibly to my request thanks Dave(ps would Ed Byrne like a climbing partner)BrianB

>I accept your point for sport climbing but not for trad routes.

So what you're saying Alan is that no-one should ever second a trad route if they can't lead it?
I have seconded many trad routes above my leading grade and have climbed many of them well and the more I do this the more I am likely to push my leading grade. If and when I do fail it's more likely because I've run out of steam or through lack of experience of the move(s) required than anything else.
But the main thing is that I enjoy climbing both as a leader and as a second, and whether the belayer above me got there by leading the route or by walking round the easy way doesn't really matter.

Liz

No of course I'm not saying that, someone has to get the gear out.
What I am saying that as a training method, 'top-roping' is very over-rated. I think most people will gain much more, both in increased ability and personal satisfaction, by trying to lead as much as possible.
However when your are emotionally and physically tired, top-roping can be much more attractive proposition than pushing it out one more time on the lead. You should just avoid letting it become a cop-out.

Alan

Brian

Unless your climbing in the rain (or Burbage South) winters the best time for leading on grit. The rocks like velcro, so keep on leading mate. Nows the time to pull on those hideous slopers and smear like a demon. Snow can be even better (six foot snow drifts under dodgy solos). What's the worst conditions anyones been out climbing in the Peak?

Oops did I say Peak, I mean gritstone. I'm not from Sheffield, honest.

snowing on the south peak today it was great early even managed a smeary b7 but complete white out this afternoon.

Brian,

As you say, I was not trying to brag nor massage my ego (pity others on this page can't do the same). If you fancy meeting in the Peak sometime over the winter I am sure that we could have quite a good climb together. Please send an e-mail if you fancy it.
I think from the views listed above it is obvious that you can please some fo the climbing community some of the time, but not all of the climbing community all of the time. I just wonder if some of those who have replied above would have the same view if they were climbing S,VS,HVS,lower E grades and not E4,E5 and E6 as listed.

Dave

I believe that the issue of top-roping routes basically boils down to the style of the first ascent.
Imagine if someone in the 70's was climbing routes in the E2/E3 grade for example had been looking at a line which was approx E5 (or at least noticeably and visibly harder) and then finally after weeks of psychological preparation had led it in fine style.
For someone to come along 30 years later when all the gear is so much better, the shoes are stickier and training facilities exist in every major town and just TOP-ROPE it, doesn't really acknowledge that first ascent and the style in which it was done.
Wouldn't an ascent in the same fine style be more pleasing and satisfying to some people??
I have climber for 2 years and lead E1 when I can and despite having top-roped harder climbs (eg.E4 5c/6a) and feeling that I would love to get on that E4 on a top-rope and let loose I feel more value would be attained by approaching it in the same way as that of the first ascent and I don't plan to do it again.
There is alot to be said for the style in which we climb and I believe that we have alot to be proud of in this country I think.
Just a view and I know that the argument is far wider than the point(s) listed here.
Kids learning for example and "headpointing" blah blah.
Anyway....back to szssssleep.