UKC

Hi,

I've been mulling this for a while, so would love to hear people's thoughts:

Until recently, I always used a standard belay device, clipped into the belay loop, when belaying at the top of a trad climb.

Then I had two occasions on which my seconds ran into trouble and couldn't climb/needed help. I then realised that not only was I having to hold the rope in a locked off position while they hung on it, but also I was unable to escape the system to get a better view or even go and get help.

So then I switched to using a guide belay device. Here's what I do:

- Attach HMS screwgate to belay loop of my harness

- Take about a foot of rope from just above the figure8 knot on my harness, tie a figure8 knot on the bite and clip it into the HMS

- place two or more pieces of good protection (nut, cam, etc), and clip a screwgate into each one

- run the rope from the HMS through the screwgate on the first piece of protection, back to the HMS and secure it with a clove hitch

- do the same for the second piece of protection

- remove the HMS from my harness (remember I'm still attached to it via a short length of rope)

- attach guide belay device to the HMS (all the rope is at the upper, wider end of the HMS, so the guide device goes at the other, narrower end)

- take in the slack, insert rope into guide device, clip in a screwgate to enable the guide device's auto-lock, then belay as normal.

As far as I can work out, the main drawback is that in the case of a fall the anchors get loaded directly (whereas belaying from the harness would soften the load).

But I figure the anchors need to be able to take the load anyway. Plus, I'm using the rope rather than slings, which makes tbe system a bit more dynamic.

What do people think?

The guide plate is a useful tool for climbing, especially when bringing seconds up to the anchor and the whole climb is progressing in a straightforward manor.

My first consideration would be why your seconds got into difficulty. Was it an unforeseen problem or was the route beyond their capabilities? Prevention is better than cure and choosing a route that is appropriate for both climbers is always going to be the best outcome. It is an important duty of the leader to give care and consideration to the ability of the second. Can they climb at that grade, do they know where the route goes, have you protected them appropriately with good protection especially on a route that doesn't just go straight up?

In terms of using a guide plate, the anchors have to be unquestionably bombproof. If in reach I would equalise them with a sling and clip into the master point with a clove hitch. If the anchors are out of reach and it is appropriate to use a guide plate then a figure of eight bight knot is useful for creating a master point on the rope. It depends what happens next though. Is it a single or multi pitch route? Are you swinging leads or block leading? Where is the second going to clip in at the anchor if required? Have you practised hoisting or escaping from your system if required, or managed a lower on the guide plate then get the second down or give slack?

It's great to have a toolbox of techniques at you disposal and to choose the right one at the right time in the right place! Experience and judgement will allow you to make these decisions and enjoy a successful climbing career with your partners.

Assuming there is little slack out, the load should be similar to a dead weight as the 2nd climber is top roped. If your anchors are that poor that you need to worry about them, then maybe worry before your partner leaves safety. Of course the last gear you placed will also offer some comfort if the anchors are truely horrific. But if the anchors are that horrific, either the grade or guide book (or reputation) should reflect that. 

However... you normally know when your second will need help before you set your belay up, if it's just a skills or experience shortage. So why not just set the belay up for a direct (or indirect) belay that doesn't involve you being so entwined, maybe even with the plate in guide mode to start with? 

I rarely belay from my belay loop anyway. Too long holding weighted half ropes from a belay loop quickly teaches you that it becomes uncomfortable all too soon. Once you are no longer a chain in the belay and just the equipment operator, life is already easier. 

All the above said, swapping safely from non guide to guide mode is a bit of a faff however you achieve it. 

To Escape.

Wrap dead rope around a leg several times to lock belay device and free both hands. Attach prussik on live side of belay device and then attach it to a belay point. Drop second a few inches to load prussik. Take rope off belay device and you are free.

To assist second.

Assuming you use double ropes. Attach prussik foot loop to one of the seconds close to his/her harness (before they start) If they can’t make the move get them to stand in the foot loop and when they stand up pull with the other rope. They then move the foot prussik up a bit and repeat the process. It works. I learnt it when I was a naïve second and fell off the overhang (pitch 5) of Trespasser’s Groove with pumped arms.

I did a video about using a guide plate with rope belays a while ago that may be of interest

youtube.com/watch?v=JzewtTpzg_M&

Whatever happened to tieing off the belay with a hitch before transferring the load to a prussik? (and then a clove)

Hmmm not sure about wrapping rope round the leg to lock off the belay device. That’s not taught anywhere as far as I know. Sounds dodgy and might not always be possible. Use a slip knot backed up by two half hitches, all on the belay device. Quick and easy to do with practice. 

I most cases it’s easier to use a long sling or a couple of medium slings to build your master point. You are right that the load goes straight into the anchors so this isn’t always suitable. 

It’s prob not ideal but I’d be more worried about relying on just a prusik. I always teach to have something else replace the ATC, normally an Italian Hitch. Tie off - prusik - Italian - release atc - adjust Italian and tie off.

Yeah sure, that’s really important, wouldn’t fancy leaving someone hanging off just a prussik!

As nickcj mentions, having a toolbox of skills / techniques is a good plan so that when things don't go to plan you can call upon these to help solve the problem.

A good instructional book is worth investing in, or book a day with a climbing instructor. Another place to get good information is the website 'multi pitch climbing dot com'

It is crucial to back up the prussik. An Italian hitch works well as this can be tied off with half hitches and released again whilst under load. Do not rely only on a prussik

Sounds like it would good idea to get some professional classes. I did one a while ago it's well worth it for more advanced stuff like escaping the system. 

Jp mountain skills has great videos series

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdwJTRiemgjvd4uITvKT3GSPeKTeWCWqi

Your system sounds basically fine but with a few shortcomings:

- From a safety pov you (the belayer) are not equally weighting the belay pieces (only your second is). So theoretically you are risking compromising the belay by you pulling that one piece out, then shock-loading the remainder of the belay with is now reduced in strength (for similar reasons, I personally dislike the "sliding x" arrangement).

- If you have 4+ pieces of gear on the belay you will most likely have to do a little adapting as you will run out of space on the HMS.

I wouldn't worry about direct loading of the belay in a normal situation. If the belay is bad enough that you are not keen on directly loading it , you are already in a very dubious situation and should be looking for a belay elsewhere or waistbelaying in a braced position or whatever else is best in the situation.

Also another +1 for this. Having a wide variety of skills is very important, especially when you are the experienced climber and prone to get your seconds into tricky situations :p

(Btw, always treat actually hauling a free-hanging second as a final resort because it's an absolute pita and will probably destroy you ropes in just a few minutes)

Thanks for the mention!

Sorry, yes, should have said this is single pitch climbing.

Regarding using a sling: isn't it better to use the rope, as it's a little more dynamic and easier on the anchors?

Thanks! That's really handy.

Thanks - my issue with the prussik is where to attach it to. The prussik loop goes round the rope of course, but where would I clip in the carabiner on the other end of the loop, such that the rope is held in locked off position...

Thanks. Yeah, I've only ever done hauling as a practice, never for real - I'll take your word for it!

While the slip knot backed up is what is taught and easy to use it isn't as versatile or quick as throwing a few loops around your thigh which makes the loops method applicable in many circumstances where the knots would be totally impractical.

You attach the prussik to the master point on the belay via a sling or doubled up QD. Then attach the dead rope to the master point as well (I’ve skipped over a few steps). If you have an out of reach belay with no master point, you create one by putting a klemheist on the ropes going to the belay gear. This is all described in Libby’s book - it’s quite tricky to explain without pictures.  

Sorry, that’s just wrong. The slip knot method is taught because it’s robust, versatile, quick and easy (with practice).

Without wishing to wade into the rest of the discussion (which basically boils down to good vs adequate) I'd add a suggestion and a question for consideration.

I suggest you learn how to escape from someone that knows and can teach a number of flexible methods then practice with the right kit and with the assorted harness mess left at the top of a long pitch. You'll probably never have to do it and probably won't go as planned if you do but with a very limited set of tools (physical kit and ideas) it should almost always be possible to escape quickly and safely.

How will you lower your stuck or injured second with the device in guide mode?

jk

Single pitch - the answer is always going to be 'lower the second to the ground' - unless it's single pitch sea cliff. 

If you're relying on negligible stretch from four/six, short, parallel-ish strands of rope, you're worrying about the wrong thing.  The rope between you and the second will do far more than those short strands.

To lower any significant distance with a guide plate it’s best to swap it out in favour of an Italian hitch. Pretty quick to do.