UKC

I have started climbing trad routes on lead about two years ago, but my progression has been fairly limited and I'm stuck at about 5.8 YDS (or HVS-5a I suppose), while I follow up to 5.10+ (f6b/c). The main obstacle is that I don't have regular and consistent opportunities to climb and progress (time available juggling work and family, regular partners and distance from climbing spots), so I was wondering if there is a way to train for trad leading making the most of indoor gyms and/or other training methods off the rock.

I do go once a week in the gym, but I don't find the climbing style there translates that much to trad routes on granite that I generally climb outdoor, nor I have much motivation and enjoyment climbing plastic.

This fella's got some good advice - https://www.niallgrimes.com/jam-crack-climbing-podcast/jcpc-017-john-redhea...

I’m no expert and only just climbong VS and am considering how I might prepare for hvs lead and 2nd Es more successfully. 

To that end when I boulder I always down climb, the aim being to help familiarise my body with the movements and help a bit with my endurance. 2-3hrs bouldering. 

I then also try to do more indoor Sport lead, again focusing on endurance which is my main weak point. I also practice falls when I can to help improve my mental state.

I have to admit that I really hate the gym and perhaps to really increase my endurance I need to suck it up and get a proper gym workout going. I just find it so boring. A friend recently introduced me to a bouldering exercise, 4 reps of 4 climbs of a single route continuously. 
 

I guess my advice is to leverage opportunity you can and use that to address what you perceive your weeknesses to be. 

Out of interest, what and where do you climb? We have a lot of bots and strange accounts... since you've just joined, could you tells us a bit more before getting answers? Why join UK Climbing when you're using YDS and climbing... granite?

Thanks

Yes, I get it. I actually live in California and climb there, hence why YDS and granite. I've joined UKC as I used to live in the UK and I used to follow this website and forum, without being a member, and I found generally there's less spam and better responses than the American closest counterpart...

There are those of us who don't care at all whether routes are graded in this system or in that. When in North America, I happily used the YDS without making any significant effort to translate the grades into British or any other grades. The British seem to be peculiarly obsessed by grade comparisons (and I say this, as a Brit). IMO, it is a subject that got old and tedious a long time ago.

There are a number of California gyms with various size cracks to practice on.  Do some research, you'll find quite a few options. Maybe ask on Mountain Project about the best gyms with cracks.  I have no personal experience, but have heard that various Planet Granite gyms are good.

California is big.  If you're down around San Diego, there's a great bouldering/top rope area with lots of cracks---not all necessarily hard---called Mt. Woodson.  See youtube.com/watch?v=5clAGBVSxNA& for a virtual tour.

It might be worthwhile investing in a little instruction.  If that appeals, I'd look into crack climbing clinics at Indian Creek (Moab).  I suspect you can learn more there in a week than you'd manage by yourself in many months.

So that is a discrepancy of about 3 sport grades or so, I think. I think this isn't unusual even for someone with quite a bit of trad experience. We would all like to be able to lead what we can second.

One of the big differences is hanging on while you place gear, particularly if you don't have that much experience leading. Practicing placing gear, of course, will help, but you can't do that more, but you can practice hanging on for longer at a gym and getting extremely pumped. My favourite way of training this is on a circuit board. Others prefer auto belays. If it is power-endurance you lack, 4 by 4 boulders someone suggested could help.

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I think it was John Redhead who recommended masturbation and shoplifting as training for hard trad.

That was a good listen!

I would say not hanging, but having weight on feet, using one hand to maintain balance, so core stability helps, it's a chance to place gear, read the route, rest etc.. 

Op. The rest is mileage, spotting where the route goes, placing gear effectively, not carrying gear you won't ever use on that specific route, experience basically. Most people who are comfortable climbing uk 5a and above trad have a route count in the hundreds. 

Concurrently? Some sort of strong head-game workout?

Jamcrack, as mentioned above - https://www.niallgrimes.com/jam-crack-climbing-podcast/jcpc-017-john-redhea...

I'll add it to my JC backlog, but was mostly curious about a training regime that plays to my strengths...

Thanks for the friendly response. It's tricky to know what is best to do, but a lot of things will get results, e.g., from least specific to most specific:

• running regularly for aerobic fitness
• floor and bar exercises, focused on core, pull ups, pushups
• hangboarding: boring, but gives results quickly and that helps confidence at cruxes
• indoor bouldering: power and technique
• indoor leading: endurance and tactics, including resting, as well as falling a lot
• bouldering and sport climbing as a time-efficient way to rack up hard moves
• lots of time trad climbing toward your limits.

With regard to the last one, it's good to try to make the most of each day out by getting on harder climbs. You could try, for example, a challenge of climbing 30x 5.10s in a season.

The frequent problem here is putting too much pressure on yourself and losing the joy. So, you need to listen to yourself.

Don't be afraid to pick a few projects that are well above where you are now and "bring them down to your level" by top-roping and headpointing them. If you pick a hard enough route (e.g. equivalent of E3, say) then you will probably not even be able to climb it clean on your first go and consequently the whole experience will be a rewarding learning process.

Hope thay helps!

Exercises I do, which logically should help.....no idea if they do or not

1. Doing laps on boulder problems where you hover your hand over a hold for a few seconds before grabbing it, probably closest to simulating placing gear in terms of holding strenuous positions, working core tension etc.
2. Doing laps on the circuit board, trying to find positions to get some kind of rest, breathe, shake out (rather than just going until you fall off)

Yesh mileage, duration, not just hard continously. I'd turn it around and go to the easiest bits of the wall, where the kids play, 1 handed traverses, no hands up a slab etc... even at 5a+ trad you aren't working hard continously, at these grades your legs should still be doing the heavy lifting, your arms, body position and core stability keep your body weight over them, avoiding ending up trying to place gear in a stress position, triggering disco leg etc...

That and picking routes which work your weaknesses, slabs, layback, under cut, jamming, over laps etc. It's easy when indoors to be drawn towards what you do best, after all it's a spectator sport at times. 

Tops off for power?

Always, beanie on, ear pods in so you can't hear anyone shout get out the way you.... I'm about to drop off. 

Thank you all for the thoughtful replies, definitely good suggestions I hadn't thought about (I confirm this forum is higher quality than the American counterpart...).

I found that, indeed, I'm physically, and as a consequence mentally,  challenged when there aren't good and frequent rest stances for gear placements. For instance, in more vertical cracks where there aren't footholds on the face around or secure and non-painful enough footjams. 

In the gym I frequent there is a short wall with different crack sizes. Not long enough to do more than 3-4 moves though, but rather bouldering height. 

Another weakness is laybacking. Not just for how tricky it is to place gear and find rests, but also because I get pumped very quickly 

Just out of interest why do you want to improve at trad climbing?

Chicks dig it.

Just get out and climb trad routes on sight and enjoy it while keep pushing yourself on routes that appeal to you and it will come.

keith s

Rests sometimes are not so much "found" as manufactured... Bridging, sitting on your heel, jams... knee bars at the extreme. A good jam in a horizonal break really lets you relax your forearms. Likewise, often in cracks you can layback to move up, but then shift to jamming to place gear and get a rest. Laybacking is relatively strenuous for everyone. If footjams are painful, make sure your footwear is helping you: stiff and relatively comfortable. I have some tight Tenayas that are soft and noticeably painful in footjams, whilst my pair of Katanas is much better because of the lateral stiffness and fit.

I prefer YDS with film ratings as it helps me onsight more routes closer to my limits on holiday without worrying about the risk of dangerous sandbags. 5.8 U/PG multipitich Californian granite has given me consistently enjoyable HVS style big climbs; and when going well encouraged safe 5.9 (or even the odd safe 5.10a) ascents. I'm pretty sure all my hardest onsight leads are in tougher graded US areas like JT on safish slabs that would easily make E3 6a on grit. Mind you, most of the UKC YDS critics climb harder than me and in the UK I climb most on Peak and Yorkshire grit.

This is good advice.

Having once turned up to Yosemite valley fit and turned up again unfit another time, I’d say just get on it and try really, really hard. Everything will improve!

One thing I learned is to look ahead for easier ground and weigh up if you actually need to place gear now or two quick moves ahead. 
 

Have fun!

Not sure why I got so many down votes for that. I feel like it's taken as a assumption that you should want to improve at sports/hobbies but I don't see why. If you don't like training and have got plenty of routes to go at in the grades you climb then why seek to improve? When I climbed a lot with my partner we swung leads on a lot of VSs and it was more enjoyable for both of us if I was climbing nearer to my limit than if I found them easy.

I'm climbing better than I ever have this year whilst doing less training (none) and less climbing than I used to. Part this is because I'm climbing with harder climbers and using my feet better. I think the other part though is simply because I'm enjoying climbing more and worrying less about the grades I climb. I'm climbing harder routes because I enjoy the challenge rather than to tick an E1. Keith's advice is very good but I would add if improvements don't come that's not a problem because ultimately if you're enjoying climbing trad you're enjoying climbing trad regardless of whether it's on a top e grade or a vdiff. 

The last time I went to the US for granite trad climbing (Yosemite and Joshua Tree) I trained for the trip almost entirely at my local bouldering wall. I got up solid 5.10s, easy 5.11 and even 5.9+ (no prizes for guessing which was the hardest). So the training did its job as I can't do those grades off the couch.

Now for sure the typical indoor climbing style doesn't translate directly into trad routes on granite. In terms of technique you will only get that by doing a lot of mileage on those types of routes. But once you've got even a semblence of that technique you will find that the strength and fitness you can build inside transfers relatively well to the granite crags. The problem you face is not necessarily so much getting fit or strong, but finding the time to improve technically. That's both for movement over rock and for leading routes (two different skills). So you need to spend as much time climbing as possible. Is there any bouldering near you that you could fit in around your other commitments? Can you develop some regular climbing partners? Is there any way that you could rearrange your home life in order to free up a little time, or might it be best to wait eg until your kids are a bit older, and focus on climbing improvement then. Also don't beat yourself up - two years to climb solid 5.8 is just fine.

I must say that it is perfectly possible to improve some climbing technique indoors if you try - check out John Kettle's book on climbing technique training. My own feeling is that climbing at the wall isn't just a way of getting a high number of moves in but can often be really good climbing movement in and of itself. I appreciate that not everyone feels that way - for some people the whole cliff/nature/adventure/friendship side of climbing is far more enjoyable than the purely kinaesthetic aspect, and if you're one of those people then being told to "get into the cool moves at the wall" is going to ring a little hollow.

The other way is to junk the whole idea of getting more technically proficient and simply develop an overkill level of strength and endurance. Your climbing is going to be ugly as hell but who cares? You'll be so strong you can pick up a nay-sayer in each meaty hand! If you don't want to immerse yourself in all that training literature stuff then a coach would probably be the best call for your Banner to Hulk transformation. Again, it's clearly going to take a time committment unless you are working at a secret lab developing super soldiers with gamma radiation, but UKC does attract more than its fair share of scientists so one never knows.

I certainly agreed with enjoyment first over performance. The main reason for pushing grades is to both open up the number and variety of multipitch routes to climb, as well as feeling more confident and being more efficient on the 5.6-5.8 ones, hence leading to an overall more enjoyable experience.