UKC

Most of us do it at some point but why does it help? Looking for a good physiological reason!

In reply to James Moyle:

Might be something to do with getting blood to move quickly through the large muscle groups and remove toxins created by aerobic respiration and getting oxygen to those screaming muscles?

In reply to James Moyle:
Helps get rid of the Lactic acid, not sure exactly how though.

In reply to James Moyle:

I read once about raising your arms just above horizontal, to drain the lactic acid. It's really hard to tell if this works though.

In reply to James Moyle: Right, so if pump is the result of lactic acid build up, increased blood flow and hence increased oxygen will help to break it down (and use it for energy?). But why does shaking do this?

In reply to James Moyle: On routes, I shake when cramp starts in my forearms, I guess I use it as a way of one handed stretching when you can't, or don't really want to let go with the other. I give it a good shake to help loosen the muscles, it kind of works I guess. But for bouldering I do long stretches rather than shaking, which I find much, much more effective.

In reply to Daniel Heath: I've heard this a lot (Kauk, for example) and, in other sports as well. If you want to increase blood flow to the muscle group though, this will make it worse. Also where is this lactic acid "draining" to? Do you want it in your shoulder?!

In reply to James Moyle:

You let your arms dangle loosley by your side and shake them about for about 30 secs. The lowered arm(s), and the shaking allows the blood to flow back into your arms, which in turn displaces the lactic acid build up; the lactic acid is dispersed around the body.

In reply to James Moyle:

The liver

In reply to escalator: but the blood flows through your arms constantly - I don't see why shaking makes any difference

In reply to Tiberius: Sure I know the liver reprocess the lactic acid to glycogen, but a) if you have your hand in the air it is harder for the heart to pump blood to the forearm and get it to the liver. I don't accept that gravity will help that much, especially since a lot of the lactic acid is in the cells not the blood

In reply to James Moyle:

If you cut your hand you'd raise it - presumably this reduces the blood flow. When you climb your hands are raised...

In reply to Steve John B: I've got no problem with the dangling the arms by your side (Despite Ron Kauk and other athletes suggesting hold them up to drain the lactic acid) - but what does shaking do?

In reply to James Moyle:

hands below heart = increased flow
low load muscle contractions (ie shaking) = increased flow

both of which help to clear lactate, which has built up a result of a series of sustained isometric contractions. Subjectively this helps to dissapate 'pump', and studies suggest that this is the case as well.

In reply to Toby Dunn:

Right, good - so is this the most effective low level aerobic muscle work we can do to improve blood flow or is there another way?

My own theory was that shaking could produce a centrifuge effect forcing blood faster into the capilliaries - any merit in this?

In reply to James Moyle: Blood does not flow through your arms constantly, varying degrees of muscle contraction sqeeze the vessels supplying that muscle and therefore restrict bloodflow, i think at about 70% of maximal contraction there is basically no blood flowing in, though don't quote me one that, i have no idea where the figure's coming from.

In reply to @ndyM@rsh@ll:

Dave McLeod says something similar in 9/10, but I can't find the exact quote since my copy's out on loan.

More info here: http://www.mountainzone.com/blogs/performance_training/2006/07/study-shows-...

In reply to James Moyle:

I don't know how you would distinguish the centrifuge effect from the low load contractions effect, but there may be something in it.

I think the thing with raising and lowering is that you should do both, rather than it being a case of one or the other - you lower the arm to perfuse the capillaries with blood, then by raising it you encourage the blood to drain back towards the core again. Do that on a cycle of a few seconds in each location or whatever and it just assists things a bit.

As for whether you want lactate in your shoulder, basically you just want to get it somewhere else apart from in a high concentration in your tiny forearm muscles

In reply to James Moyle:

If you look on 8a.nu I seem to remember a good(ish) article discussing the merits of squeezing holds to encourage blood flow and reduce pump in situations were you can't rest and shake-out.

Would look for it myself and post the link but in a ruch (and lazy

Luke

In reply to Removed User: Good Link - heard and practised the technique but not seen the results of the study before. That does seem to indicate that the dangly hand shake on its own does little to aid recovery.

In reply to AJM:
Maybe just slowly opening and closing the hand?

In reply to James Moyle:

Sure, I don't think gravity is the real point here, as a couple of people have mentioned the low grade muscle activity of shaking is the point.

I'm off to leeds wall this aft. I'll give it a try. Just rest my one arm up or down, and the other one I'll shake out, see if there's any difference.

The 'shake out' seems to be a natural reaction though, not reeli nething to do with climbing. e.g. when i fall snowboarding, it's natural to 'shake out' the temporary discomfort and get the blood flowing. When my legs are pumped from a long ride, I tend to move slowly and kinda shake them rather than just lying still to help them recover.

In reply to Tiberius: I agree it is a natural reaction - possibly to any sort of pain? Lots of people will do a similar thing if they hit their thumb with a hammer or if they are cold.

In reply to James Moyle: http://www.climbing.com/print/techtips/ttsport232/
Check out the bottom bit.

In reply to James Moyle: I am sure I read somewhere that you can make things even better by waving the arm above your head (lactic acid out) and then by your side (blood in). No idea if it is useful since whilst you are doing all this, your other arm is getting pumped and you end up in a vicious circle that always ends with a fall or a cry for a tight rope.

In reply to James Moyle:

You're getting confused with shouting "F*CK!"

In reply to EeeByGum: Not entire useless. You can train yourself to hang off one arm on a nice juggy hold without squeezing it and by just straightening your arm and letting the bones take the weight. With practise you can easily spend a good deal of time without getting pumped. In the meanwhile you have time to recover by doing the shake-the-arm routine. A good way to train for these types of rests is to do an easy circuit for 2 or even 3 laps without stopping, pick a nice jug and everytime you get to it, stop and do the above. It works for me.