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I think this used to be one of the better E2 routes on Gower. What grade should it be now it has been bolted? I'm all for clipping bolts but I am scratching my head about this one.
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In reply to luke glaister:
I should clarify that the first third or so remains bolt free. Its just the rest of the route.
I should clarify that the first third or so remains bolt free. Its just the rest of the route.
In reply to luke glaister:
I think its because Blackman's Pinch has been fully retro bolted. So apart from the roof Adulteress is also retro bolted. Oh well. No need to take a rack to trial wall any longer. Good trad routes make good sport routes.
I think its because Blackman's Pinch has been fully retro bolted. So apart from the roof Adulteress is also retro bolted. Oh well. No need to take a rack to trial wall any longer. Good trad routes make good sport routes.
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In reply to Dan Dyson:
Have they put more bolts in C&P then? I found the top quite tricky on that and that was wire protected from memory...
Have they put more bolts in C&P then? I found the top quite tricky on that and that was wire protected from memory...
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In reply to GDes:
thanks Ged - I wondered why I struggled with some grades. Obviously its not cos I'm not talented.
thanks Ged - I wondered why I struggled with some grades. Obviously its not cos I'm not talented.
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In reply to Dan Dyson:
No it doesn't. Otherwise you might as well move along the coast with a Hilti and sort Pembroke out. I've no idea who bolted Adultress, but in my mind its plain wrong.
Chris
> Good trad routes make good sport routes.
No it doesn't. Otherwise you might as well move along the coast with a Hilti and sort Pembroke out. I've no idea who bolted Adultress, but in my mind its plain wrong.
Chris
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In reply to luke glaister:
Pretty sad demise of a route that was on the front cover of the older guidebook.
> Please no. That's just wrong.
Pretty sad demise of a route that was on the front cover of the older guidebook.
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In reply to luke glaister:
It is important to get the facts correct: Blackmans Pinch has been part retrobolted, Blackmans pinch was originally climbed with one or two peg runners and a bolt runner. Adulteress climbed a line to the left of BP before traversing right to finish up BP.
It is important to get the facts correct: Blackmans Pinch has been part retrobolted, Blackmans pinch was originally climbed with one or two peg runners and a bolt runner. Adulteress climbed a line to the left of BP before traversing right to finish up BP.
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In reply to Eugetj:
I thought the bolting policy for trial wall was like for like replacement only, no new fixed gear? Or have I remembered wrong?
I thought the bolting policy for trial wall was like for like replacement only, no new fixed gear? Or have I remembered wrong?
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In reply to luke glaister:
Is there anything to stop you doing Adultress as a trad route?
The top third which shares the section of Blackmans Pinch now has bolts but the gear placements are still there!
Is there anything to stop you doing Adultress as a trad route?
The top third which shares the section of Blackmans Pinch now has bolts but the gear placements are still there!
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In reply to marric:
So why are the bolts there then?
>
> The top third which shares the section of Blackmans Pinch now has bolts but the gear placements are still there!
> The top third which shares the section of Blackmans Pinch now has bolts but the gear placements are still there!
So why are the bolts there then?
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
I think the previous posts tell you why the bolts are there......because Blackman’s Pinch has been retrobolted!
I think the previous posts tell you why the bolts are there......because Blackman’s Pinch has been retrobolted!
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
Both Blackmans pinch and Crime and Punishment were hybrid routes- a mixture of old bolts, pegs and new bolts.
Sport climbers weren’t climbing them because they didn’t have a rack, trad climbers didn’t climb them because of the bolts! They are now safe, quality sport routes with lower offs more in keeping with the local area- shipwreck and black wall etc, far more likely to see traffic when the tide comes in. I am of the same opinion as the first ascentionist- better bolted. Adulteress doesn’t have bolts for two thirds of its height and anyone wishing to climb it in a traditional style can fill their boots still!
Both Blackmans pinch and Crime and Punishment were hybrid routes- a mixture of old bolts, pegs and new bolts.
Sport climbers weren’t climbing them because they didn’t have a rack, trad climbers didn’t climb them because of the bolts! They are now safe, quality sport routes with lower offs more in keeping with the local area- shipwreck and black wall etc, far more likely to see traffic when the tide comes in. I am of the same opinion as the first ascentionist- better bolted. Adulteress doesn’t have bolts for two thirds of its height and anyone wishing to climb it in a traditional style can fill their boots still!
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Also the lower-offs were requested by the national trust to stop people topping out...This was discussed afaik in an area meet....
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In reply to steveanthony:
.
Lots of climbers are "hybrid" and enjoy both styles. I enjoyed climbing both those routes in their former styles. Maybe I am out of touch and now all climbers must elect to be either a sport climber or a trad climber? I don't see why both styles can't exist together with a bit of give and take and regard for each other.
I can see the argument on BP and the other hybrid routes that it is logical to fill in the bolt gaps. The problem with doing so in this particular instance is that it has had a significant impact upon Adulteress, which really was a cracking trad route. I haven't measured the distances but it looked to me as though from Adulteress you can clip the first of the new BP bolts from the start of the traverse after the crux roof of Adulteress which is more than a third of its height. To suggest that its acceptable to retro bolt most of a regularly climbed *** trad route simply because anyone who want's to climb it in a trad style still can, really is missing the point.
Anyway very grateful to those who put time into equipping routes. It just does seem a shame that on this occasion to have lost a good trad route.
.
> Sport climbers weren’t climbing them because they didn’t have a rack, trad climbers didn’t climb them because of the bolts!
Lots of climbers are "hybrid" and enjoy both styles. I enjoyed climbing both those routes in their former styles. Maybe I am out of touch and now all climbers must elect to be either a sport climber or a trad climber? I don't see why both styles can't exist together with a bit of give and take and regard for each other.
I can see the argument on BP and the other hybrid routes that it is logical to fill in the bolt gaps. The problem with doing so in this particular instance is that it has had a significant impact upon Adulteress, which really was a cracking trad route. I haven't measured the distances but it looked to me as though from Adulteress you can clip the first of the new BP bolts from the start of the traverse after the crux roof of Adulteress which is more than a third of its height. To suggest that its acceptable to retro bolt most of a regularly climbed *** trad route simply because anyone who want's to climb it in a trad style still can, really is missing the point.
Anyway very grateful to those who put time into equipping routes. It just does seem a shame that on this occasion to have lost a good trad route.
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In reply to Dan Dyson:
Anyway very grateful to those who put time into equipping routes. It just does seem a shame that on this occasion to have lost a good trad route.
The First Free Ascensionist of all the routes involved has decided how these routes should be protected and perhaps in that decision making, has decided on the best balance of Trad/Sports for those routes involved?
Anyway very grateful to those who put time into equipping routes. It just does seem a shame that on this occasion to have lost a good trad route.
The First Free Ascensionist of all the routes involved has decided how these routes should be protected and perhaps in that decision making, has decided on the best balance of Trad/Sports for those routes involved?
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In reply to FactorXXX:
I hate that argument. Why does the person who happened to climb a particular bit of rock first get the say in what happens? Such an arbitrary rule. What happens when the FFA is at odds with everyone else? Surely consensus rules?
I hate that argument. Why does the person who happened to climb a particular bit of rock first get the say in what happens? Such an arbitrary rule. What happens when the FFA is at odds with everyone else? Surely consensus rules?
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In reply to steveanthony:
That's just not true in this case. These routes get a fair bit of attention, I'd say they gained a bit of character and were more interesting as hybrids. That is now lost it would seem.
Now the 'problem'of bolts has been pushed onto The Adultress. Will sport climbers stay away? Will trad climbers refuse to climb it because of the new bolts? Will this now get fully bolted?
> Sport climbers weren’t climbing them because they didn’t have a rack, trad climbers didn’t climb them because of the bolts!
That's just not true in this case. These routes get a fair bit of attention, I'd say they gained a bit of character and were more interesting as hybrids. That is now lost it would seem.
Now the 'problem'of bolts has been pushed onto The Adultress. Will sport climbers stay away? Will trad climbers refuse to climb it because of the new bolts? Will this now get fully bolted?
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In reply to GDes:
Unfortunately that is the bolting policy for Trial Wall. As I understand it, the whim of the FFAs can decide whether the whole crag gets bolted or not.
> I hate that argument. Why does the person who happened to climb a particular bit of rock first get the say in what happens? Such an arbitrary rule. What happens when the FFA is at odds with everyone else? Surely consensus rules?
Unfortunately that is the bolting policy for Trial Wall. As I understand it, the whim of the FFAs can decide whether the whole crag gets bolted or not.
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In reply to GDes:
This ^^
> I hate that argument. Why does the person who happened to climb a particular bit of rock first get the say in what happens? Such an arbitrary rule. What happens when the FFA is at odds with everyone else? Surely consensus rules?
This ^^
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In reply to CLedden:
This is an interesting question. I eliminated the aid from one of the routes on this wall back in 1980. I think the route was Trial. That means I haven't thought about the route; or revisited the route for thirty seven years. Does that mean I should still have the final say?
> Unfortunately that is the bolting policy for Trial Wall. As I understand it, the whim of the FFAs can decide whether the whole crag gets bolted or not.
This is an interesting question. I eliminated the aid from one of the routes on this wall back in 1980. I think the route was Trial. That means I haven't thought about the route; or revisited the route for thirty seven years. Does that mean I should still have the final say?
I'll openly admit I'm not the ballsiest trad climber, but even I did Blackmans Pinch! I thought it was a good hybrid trad route with bomber gear. I thought the two bolts were at the points it needed to keep the climb at a consistent grade.
I agree its silly the FA has the final say, but I can see the predicament. I imagine this has been done to let sport climbers enjoy the route now?
I thought things were fine the way they were
I agree its silly the FA has the final say, but I can see the predicament. I imagine this has been done to let sport climbers enjoy the route now?
I thought things were fine the way they were
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In reply to CLedden:
I totally agree with you. I wouldnt call myself a trad climber but Adultress was one one the best trad routes that I've done on the Gower. Blackmans Pinch was a half decent route with some character.
It seems that all we've gained is a mediocre sport climb and lost one of the few classic trad climbs on the Gower.
Crime and Punishment is a route which has brilliant climbing and will probably make a good sport climb. But in an area where there already a high number of quality sport climbs is it worth losing a safe and fun trad (mostly) climb for another sport route in a sea of many.
The fact that the FA can decide if a popular climb is bolted without any input from the masses is a bit shit.
> That's just not true in this case. These routes get a fair bit of attention, I'd say they gained a bit of character and were more interesting as hybrids. That is now lost it would seem.
I totally agree with you. I wouldnt call myself a trad climber but Adultress was one one the best trad routes that I've done on the Gower. Blackmans Pinch was a half decent route with some character.
It seems that all we've gained is a mediocre sport climb and lost one of the few classic trad climbs on the Gower.
Crime and Punishment is a route which has brilliant climbing and will probably make a good sport climb. But in an area where there already a high number of quality sport climbs is it worth losing a safe and fun trad (mostly) climb for another sport route in a sea of many.
The fact that the FA can decide if a popular climb is bolted without any input from the masses is a bit shit.
Post edited at 14:05
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In reply to FactorXXX:
Could Mr Sharp/Harwood give their point of view? Getting it third party is less than satisfactory. Also can a link be provided to the NT minutes of the meeting Anoetic says this was agreed at.
Thanks in advance.
Could Mr Sharp/Harwood give their point of view? Getting it third party is less than satisfactory. Also can a link be provided to the NT minutes of the meeting Anoetic says this was agreed at.
Thanks in advance.
In reply to Anoetic:
The lower offs have been there for years, in some shape or form, without ruining an E2 classic trad route. Has the South Wales bolt fund won the lottery and taken massive amounts of acid at the same time? I can see no way that this has improved the route, or the crag for that matter - BP as everyone has mentioned is a very well protected hybrid - especially the Adulteress section which has bomber gear all the way up. It seems pointless!
The lower offs have been there for years, in some shape or form, without ruining an E2 classic trad route. Has the South Wales bolt fund won the lottery and taken massive amounts of acid at the same time? I can see no way that this has improved the route, or the crag for that matter - BP as everyone has mentioned is a very well protected hybrid - especially the Adulteress section which has bomber gear all the way up. It seems pointless!
Post edited at 20:31
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In reply to cwarby:
There is a conversation in the South Wales climbing facebook page. It revolves around the bird bans and climbers topping out
There is a conversation in the South Wales climbing facebook page. It revolves around the bird bans and climbers topping out
In reply to Anoetic:
I'm confused, trial wall doesn't get bird banned does it? Are you not thinking of shipwreck cove, where the NT asked people not to top out. Or have they also now asked that at triall wall too?
I'm confused, trial wall doesn't get bird banned does it? Are you not thinking of shipwreck cove, where the NT asked people not to top out. Or have they also now asked that at triall wall too?
In reply to DaveR:
Kestrels nest on the right hand side (Inch Pinch / The Hant) and those routes are avoided. This year the NT agreed on a reduced restriction (not a wall-wide ban) and asked that the in situ rope / chain at the top of the crag be removed.
However, the LOs aren't really the issue here.
> I'm confused, trial wall doesn't get bird banned does it? Are you not thinking of shipwreck cove, where the NT asked people not to top out. Or have they also now asked that at triall wall too?
Kestrels nest on the right hand side (Inch Pinch / The Hant) and those routes are avoided. This year the NT agreed on a reduced restriction (not a wall-wide ban) and asked that the in situ rope / chain at the top of the crag be removed.
However, the LOs aren't really the issue here.
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In reply to huwlew:
These bolts were not funded by the south wales bolt fund neither was the alleged acid. Surprised you haven't mentioned a " bolt gun" or " bolt ladder" in this post.
These bolts were not funded by the south wales bolt fund neither was the alleged acid. Surprised you haven't mentioned a " bolt gun" or " bolt ladder" in this post.
In reply to steveanthony:
So as High Tor in Matlock is surrounded by sport crags, and sport climbers don't do the trad routes on High Tor it would be OK to bolt it?????? errrr, NO.
So as High Tor in Matlock is surrounded by sport crags, and sport climbers don't do the trad routes on High Tor it would be OK to bolt it?????? errrr, NO.
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In reply to freelunchprovider:
Glad they weren't funded by the bolt fund, as i'm sure many people will be. Why the surprise?? This isn't a tirade against bolts or whatever you were expecting, there are hundreds of quality sport routes around the Gower. Adulteress wasn't one of them.
Glad they weren't funded by the bolt fund, as i'm sure many people will be. Why the surprise?? This isn't a tirade against bolts or whatever you were expecting, there are hundreds of quality sport routes around the Gower. Adulteress wasn't one of them.
Post edited at 07:02
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In reply to Dan Dyson:
I don't know if bolting disputes in Gower can be dealt with through the South Wales BMC Area meetings or some other forum but I would like to think there was some way of asking for a re-think on this one, and the new bolts on The Adulteress taken out if that is the consensus view. I should say that I'm not local, I've never been to the Trial Wall (though I've done a fair amount of climbing elsewhere in Gower) and my only personal involvement is that The Adulteress was a route I was hoping to do (when I get myself fit enough again...) - inspired, as no doubt many others have been, by the old guidebook cover shot.
What seems really bizarre is that the justification seems to be that Blackman's Pinch was a "hybrid" part-bolted route, and this was seen as A Bad Thing, and so it has been retrobolted to provide a fully bolted sport route, with the effect of creating a new hybrid route in The Adulteress, which had (as far I can tell from the guidebook and comments on here) no fixed gear at all but was a well-protected pure trad route, and possibly the best E2 on Gower (going by the star ratings at least). Whatever, I just can't see how this: https://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=223569 looks like it needed retrobolting, even if it was done in accordance with the policy for the area.
Cheers
Rick
I don't know if bolting disputes in Gower can be dealt with through the South Wales BMC Area meetings or some other forum but I would like to think there was some way of asking for a re-think on this one, and the new bolts on The Adulteress taken out if that is the consensus view. I should say that I'm not local, I've never been to the Trial Wall (though I've done a fair amount of climbing elsewhere in Gower) and my only personal involvement is that The Adulteress was a route I was hoping to do (when I get myself fit enough again...) - inspired, as no doubt many others have been, by the old guidebook cover shot.
What seems really bizarre is that the justification seems to be that Blackman's Pinch was a "hybrid" part-bolted route, and this was seen as A Bad Thing, and so it has been retrobolted to provide a fully bolted sport route, with the effect of creating a new hybrid route in The Adulteress, which had (as far I can tell from the guidebook and comments on here) no fixed gear at all but was a well-protected pure trad route, and possibly the best E2 on Gower (going by the star ratings at least). Whatever, I just can't see how this: https://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=223569 looks like it needed retrobolting, even if it was done in accordance with the policy for the area.
Cheers
Rick
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In reply to Rick Sewards:
> I don't know if bolting disputes in Gower can be dealt with through the South Wales BMC Area meetings
I'm sure it'll get discussed at the next meeting (11th Feb, Swansea)
> What seems really bizarre is that the justification seems to be that Blackman's Pinch was a "hybrid" part-bolted route, and this was seen as A Bad Thing, and so it has been retrobolted to provide a fully bolted sport route, with the effect of creating a new hybrid route in The Adulteress, ...
This is the bit I don't get either. All routes mentioned in this thread are good, climb well and are well protected. It all worked fine as it was.
It seems as though people just didn't fancy taking a set of nuts and now The Adultress has a few bolts instead.
Having not gone for a look yet, I'm hoping this is a misunderstanding really.
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In reply to CLedden:
Having done the adulteress both before and after the addition of the bolts on BMP it makes no difference to the route, and BMP is now a much better route bolted up.
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