/ Ascent styles

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RockPhoenix on 13 May 2019

Hopefully quick advice please. 

I understand that if I take a fall on a route and then reclimb from the last high point that it's a dogged ascent. I also 'believe' that if I were to lower straight back down and climb it clean straight away, that it's a "Ground Up' ascent ? 

But what if I've dogged an ascent, ie take one fall, and then come back to it at a later date and climb it straight away clean, is it still a Ground Up ? If not, apart from a Repeat Ascent, what is it please ?  

Post edited at 12:53
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1poundSOCKS - on 13 May 2019
In reply to RockPhoenix:

> I also 'believe' that if I were to lower straight back down and climb it clean straight away, that it's a "Ground Up' ascent ? 

Yes, if you pull the ropes. Otherwise yo-yo.

> But what if I've dogged an ascent, ie take one fall, and then come back to it at a later date and climb it straight away clean, is it still a Ground Up ?

The date doesn't affect the style. Did you lower after the fall? If so it's ground up. If you continued climbing after a fall it's a redpoint/headpoint.

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mrphilipoldham - on 13 May 2019
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

A redpoint lets you fall off mid route and finish it without returning to the ground? I need to change a few of my ‘dogged’ entries! 

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1poundSOCKS - on 13 May 2019
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> A redpoint lets you fall off mid route and finish it without returning to the ground?

No. That would be dogged.

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mrphilipoldham - on 13 May 2019
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Then this line makes no sense... 

"If you continued climbing after a fall it's a redpoint/headpoint."

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Jon Read - on 13 May 2019
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

We need a flowchart...

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1poundSOCKS - on 13 May 2019
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> Then this line makes no sense... 

> "If you continued climbing after a fall it's a redpoint/headpoint."

Read the OPs question and my answer again. If you're still confused I can't help. Sorry.

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d_b on 13 May 2019
In reply to Jon Read:

Maybe a phone app?

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Jon Read - on 13 May 2019
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

> > Then this line makes no sense... 

> Read the OPs question and my answer again. If you're still confused I can't help. Sorry.

I've done so, and you seem to be missing something for this to be a headpoint. Namely, lowering back down and climbing the route cleanly from the ground.

> If you continued climbing after a fall it's a redpoint/headpoint.

in isolation, this sounds exactly like a dogged ascent

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C Witter on 13 May 2019
In reply to Jon Read:

I'm not sure a flow chart would be sufficient...

Scenario 1:
Climber tries route, falls and lowers off without completing it = DNF
Climber then tries again from ground and completes route = ground up

Scenario 2:
Climber does route, but falls/rests several times = dogged
Climber then comes back and tries again from ground = redpoint/headpoint

Clearer?

Pesky pronouns, eh?
 

Post edited at 16:46
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Jon Read - on 13 May 2019
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Or did you mean:

If you continued climbing after a fall -- ON A PREVIOUS ASCENT, BUT WHEN YOU SUBSEQUENTLY LED IT CLEANLY --  it's a redpoint/headpoint.

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slab_happy on 13 May 2019
In reply to Jon Read:

> Or did you mean:

> If you continued climbing after a fall -- ON A PREVIOUS ASCENT, BUT WHEN YOU SUBSEQUENTLY LED IT CLEANLY --  it's a redpoint/headpoint.

You mean, the bit specified in the OP's question?

> But what if I've dogged an ascent, ie take one fall, and then come back to it at a later date and climb it straight away clean,

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mrphilipoldham - on 13 May 2019
In reply to Jon Read:

I always thought that a redpoint/headpoint included pre-practise on a top rope. If you were to do a route completely on the sharp end, then it's ground up regardless of the amount of falls? Maybe I'm wrong, it's been known  

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1poundSOCKS - on 13 May 2019
In reply to slab_happy:

> You mean, the bit specified in the OP's question?

Thank you.  

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john arran - on 13 May 2019
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Practice after falls is what counts, regardless of where the rope comes from, so top-roped or dogged previously is the same. A lot of super-steep routes are actually much easier to work on lead.

Edit: Actually that's not quite the whole story. Even if you don't fall on top-rope it's still classed as working a route, so any subsequent ascent will be redpoint.

Post edited at 18:24
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jim182 - on 13 May 2019

What if I have previously seconded a route, then lead it on another occasion? Is this a Headpoint?

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Greasy Prusiks on 13 May 2019
In reply to RockPhoenix:

It's a purplepoint. 

Definitely a purplepoint. 

Post edited at 18:42
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mrphilipoldham - on 13 May 2019
In reply to john arran:

Good point! Fair enough. It is what it is.. 

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jim182 - on 13 May 2019
In reply to Greasy Prusiks: hmmm, I’m struggling to find the purplepoint option in the logbook.

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McHeath - on 13 May 2019
In reply to jim182:

If you seconded it effortlessly with no falls or rests then it's a facepalm.

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RockPhoenix on 18 May 2019
In reply to RockPhoenix:

Thanks for all the input guys. I'm glad it's not just me who's quite confused by the definitions. It seems that even now there's confusion even here within the answers, and without knowing the professional level of the commenters it's hard to tell what is fact and what is assertion  

I have always understood redpoint / headpoint to be pre-practice on a sport or trad route before a clean lead. I may be wrong in that belief. 

But where I have gone for an onsight, taken a single fall, had a shake-out, gone straight back onto the rock and made the move and finished the climb, I assume it's dogged, even if it was just one failed move ?  If I'd lowered straight down from the fail and re-climbed immediately it would definitely be a 'ground up'. I'm just confused about whether me finishing the route completely before reclimbing the route makes it a ground-up or a redpoint/headpoint?    

On the climb in question, it was getting too dark to reclimb it clean in one push, hence me coming back the next day to lead it clean. It's this re-climb I'm struggling to define, simply because it's the following day. My hunch having read your comments is that having climbed the whole route with one fall & rest the day before, that a clean ascent is now a RedPoint even though I hadn't "practiced" /top-roped the route? I thought a 'Ground Up' sounded purer, which is what it feels like to me.

I appreciate everyone's comments, thank you 

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Jon Read - on 18 May 2019
In reply to RockPhoenix:

 > On the climb in question, it was getting too dark to reclimb it clean in one push, hence me coming back the next day to lead it clean. It's this re-climb I'm struggling to define, simply because it's the following day. My hunch having read your comments is that having climbed the whole route with one fall & rest the day before, that a clean ascent is now a RedPoint even though I hadn't "practiced" /top-roped the route? I thought a 'Ground Up' sounded purer, which is what it feels like to me.

I think this is it in a nutshell -- how did it feel to you? We don't really have a consensus how multiple attempts over several days affect style definitions. 

Edge Lane (E5 5c) is a good example -- I described it as best climbed over a lifetime on the Grit List. You solo up as far as you dare, and then down climb to floor on day 1. Day 2 to day n-1 -- repeat. On day n you actually finish. I would class that as on sight, but I know some people who would say your on-sight is blown if you touch the floor after setting off.

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slab_happy on 18 May 2019
In reply to RockPhoenix:

> But where I have gone for an onsight, taken a single fall, had a shake-out, gone straight back onto the rock and made the move and finished the climb, I assume it's dogged, even if it was just one failed move ?

Yes.

> If I'd lowered straight down from the fail and re-climbed immediately it would definitely be a 'ground up'.

Only if you pulled the rope (and removed the gear, if you wanted to be really pedantic/purist). If not, it would be a "yo-yo."

> I'm just confused about whether me finishing the route completely before reclimbing the route makes it a ground-up or a redpoint/headpoint? 

As I understand it, it's not "ground up" because when you did the clean lead, you were familiar with all of the route; you weren't venturing into the unknown on the part of the route that came after your first fall.

Even though you didn't put a top-rope on the route, you still "practiced" it (in a very minimal way) by pulling back on and climbing the rest of the route after falling, thus familiarizing yourself with it (a.k.a. "hangdogging"), instead of immediately lowering off.

It doesn't mean your clean lead is "impure"; it's just not a ground-up ascent because that's not what the terminology means.

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Adam W. - on 18 May 2019
In reply to Jon Read:

Wasn’t that the difference between an onsight and onsight flash? It seems ground up has replaced onsight or maybe I’m missing something. Are you allowed beta on a ground-up?

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john arran - on 18 May 2019
In reply to RockPhoenix:

You may be overcomplicating things. If you've used a top-rope or you've weighted your lead rope and continued to climb any moves above, then the only remaining successful option is redpoint, before which you need to return to the ground and start over.

Ground-up (called yo-yo if ropes are left clipped between tries) requires no prior practice and every attempt to begin from the ground and return to the ground immediately upon falling or weighting the rope. It's a very intuitive style for bouldering or highballing as there is no chance of practicing anything after having fallen, but it also has a place in roped climbing, particularly as a residual challenge once the onsight is lost.

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