UKC

What are your thoughts on the below?

Myself and a friend were climbing on A Dream of White Horses. We abseiled down and started the climb. Whilst we were getting to the first belay, another team of two abbed down and my partner said they could head on first. While they were at the belay we waited for them to both head off. 

While we were waiting, a winter MCI (I'll not name him), with two clients abseiled down and skipped ahead in front of us and beat us to the next belay whilst my partner was leading towards that belay. It was pretty clear we were there first, waiting for the other team to continue. But even clearer when my partner started leading. The WMCI said he "didn't even see us" and continued anyway. He was "hovering" next to the other party, waiting for them to move on.

This added about 2/2.5 hours to our wait time. 

The two clients he brought on the climb really struggled on the 3rd and 4th pitches of the route. Both of them fell off on the 4th (traverse). One appeared to hit his head on the rock and the other scraped his elbow. Whilst the last climber was on the last pitch (traverse), a nut fell out. So the distance between each piece went from about 2 metres to about 3/4 metres. The WMCI then went back to put some more gear in for the last climber. 

The last climber also failed to remove a cam which we collected for the WMCI. He didn't wait for us to finish to collect it, rather he gave me his number. 

Firstly, I think this could all have been prevented by telling the clients they needed to be able to climb a certain grade (involving bridging/slightly overhung terrain) to be able to access the climb. 

From his website, it clearly states on the multi-pitch section for this route that "no prior experience is necessary", which I don't think is the case for this route.

Secondly, I don't think he should have cut in front of us, just so they could finish first. It seemed very inconsiderate and rude.

Is this normal? Any other thoughts? Am I making an issue out of nothing? I confess I'm not always around the sea cliffs climbing big routes like ADOWH so I'm not familiar with the ethics, but his actions seemed a bit off. 

Gogarth North Stack and Main Cliff

In reply to S.Y.Rock.Skills:

A least you've got his cam.

In reply to S.Y.Rock.Skills:

If I'm giving the benefit of the doubt, I would have to assume that 'no prior experience' is supposed to mean for sea-cliff climbing generally, and not specifically for that route. It's maybe a bit carelessly worded to imply that someone with no experience can be guided on Dream.

I'm not sure the jumping in front is so much 'ethics' as etiquette or plain manners. It does sound rude, and especially so given the shenanigans that seem to have ensued on the traverse, though perhaps the WMCI in question should be given a chance to put across their version of events? 

In reply to S.Y.Rock.Skills:

"Safety and etiquette when climbing on the sea cliffs"...

Hmmm...

In reply to Swig:

Sounds like a poor decision to push on with clients that were out of their depth, but impossible to say without being there. 

People something do weird stuff, even if they are experienced. Look after yourself at the crag, something this means being assertive and insisting on going first/second/last/whatever position you prefer to keep safe and have a nice day. Not very British I know 😁

Personally if I guide something like Dream I'd almost always have climbed something with the clients before or have them vouched for by another guide/instructor I trust. I also try my best to make sure everyone around me has a nice day too.

Sounds like they had a bad day at the office and it unfortunately spoiled your day too. 

In reply to S.Y.Rock.Skills:

A 'climbing instructor' complaining about another instructors manners, what ever next?

If you are slow you get overtaken, that's life.

In reply to S.Y.Rock.Skills:

Not at all supportive of his entitled approach to skipping the queue and he clearly misjudged whether it was appropriate to take those clients on that route if they both fell off, but I don't think the screenshot from the website is intended to say that no experience is needed specifically for DOWH. To me, it reads as "no experience is needed for the guided sea cliff climbing experience in general" and that experience might include routes like DOWH (presumably depending on experience, conditions etc.). In my view, his website is fine but his actions/judgements on the day aren't.

In reply to S.Y.Rock.Skills:

Enjoy your new cam

In reply to Andy Moles:

🍿🍿🍿

In reply to jimtitt:

Thanks for your reply.

This wasn’t just about being “overtaken” or someone being a bit quicker on a route. We weren’t faffing or being slow — we were literally waiting our turn after another team and then were actively on the route when a guide with two clients deliberately cut in front. That’s poor etiquette at best, but from a qualified WMCI leading clients on a committing sea cliff route, it raises deeper questions about professional conduct.

This wasn’t about our pace. It was about:

- Respecting order on a popular, serious multi-pitch route.

- Route choice that seemed inappropriate for the clients, which caused further delays and both clients falling at a position where you really don't want to fall.

- Situations that could have been dangerous, including falls on traverses and run-outs due to fallen gear.

I’m sharing this not to call anyone out personally, but because I think we should be willing to talk about these things as a community — especially those of us who are instructors or aspire to be.

Thanks for your opinion, though.

In reply to Swig:

I would never... 😂

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

😂

We've arranged getting it back to him.

In reply to S.Y.Rock.Skills:

You did share a screenshot of their website though, it only took about 30 seconds to Google whose website it was 😁

In reply to Alex Riley:

I'd appreciate it if you didn't share who it was. I don't think he deserves to have his reputation smeared (people can be unkind online). He's messaged me on WhatsApp and offered a full apology. 

In reply to jimtitt:

If you are hard of reading you should give it a few skims before jumping in, that's forum life.

In reply to S.Y.Rock.Skills:

Sounds not at all reasonable. I'd naively hoped that the British might be les ridiculous when it comes to that sort of thing (I had a random Swiss guide unclip me from a belay halfway up a 400m route once without even a word spoken), but I guess you get idiots of all nataionalities.

Crag swag win for you though

E2A

> He's messaged me on WhatsApp and offered a full apology. 

That however, is very much the correct response. Did he offer an explanation, out of curiosity?

In reply to S.Y.Rock.Skills:

In the heat of the moment we can sometimes make rash decisions, especially when time is ticking and you have a couple of bodies to drag to the end of a route. He would have been better jumping onto something like Britomartis around the corner but I'm guessing they threw a days wages at him to drag them up what many feel is the UK's best route.

On reflection he's apologised so he's done the honourable thing and so have you for not revealing him on here. Back slaps all round.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I'm guessing they threw a days wages at him to drag them up what many feel is the UK's best route
 

that is in a nutshell the fundamental change in ethics, the commoditisation of our collective climbing cultural heritage.

In reply to the.last.thesaurus:

A tired old cam isn't much compensation for a two and a half hour dangle.

In reply to ScraggyGoat:

If people being paid to take clients up routes is a change, it's certainly not a particularly recent one! Numbers might have increased but it's hardly a new concept.

In reply to S.Y.Rock.Skills:

What an idiot. Taking two total beginners on a sea cliff climb involving a lot of traversing is stupid , antisocial and dangerous for his clients and others on the route. Good job I wasn’t on that bit of cliff. 

In reply to S.Y.Rock.Skills:

Poor skills on their part. They likely did see you and just ignored you. It's definitely not the route to take people on unless you've already done a 4c route with them prior to it. I wouldn't bust a gut returning the cam, they can they can drive to you. 

In reply to S.Y.Rock.Skills:

If they're taking people out on a HVS sea cliff route presumably the clients aren't total novices and are probably at least aspiring to climb easier things on their own. In my opinion that means that demonstrating good practice, etiquette and judgement is even more important - it's part of what's being taught.

In reply to pancakeandchips:

Assuming the intention was instruction.

Rather than merely 'an experience'.

Part of the aforementioned commoditisation of the outdoors is the one-off 'experience'.

In reply to captain paranoia:

You think he's taking some beginners up 'an experience'.? I somehow doubt it or they'll be having good sport on the traverse...

To S.Y: Rock skills  - yes  we can and should discuss this as a community but realistically the community that matters in this case would be the guides and instructors community which you are a part of , and most other climbers are not.  

To Scraggy Goat -  I find it amusing that this 'that is in a nutshell the fundamental change in ethics, the commoditisation of our collective climbing cultural heritage.' is getting upvotes, but on another thread (the Charles Albert route being downgraded), the discussion about what's ethically good, bad, or most pure is fobbed off as nonsense

In reply to S.Y.Rock.Skills:

Drama, rudeness and delays on a super popular climb in the middle of summer?  Say it aint so Joe.

In reply to Luke90:

I blame Edward Whymper.

In reply to S.Y.Rock.Skills:

Not directed at you as your partner was leading but why are guides taking novices on a Dream of White Horses? Are guides so impoverished of imagination and knowledge that they can't think of another good quality route? 

To queue jump in front of a party of two with a party of three including two beginners to ensure that you are definitely significantly delayed is outrageous. 

In reply to FreshSlate:

They are as entitled as anyone to climb it and it's a great day out for intermediate climbers who wouldn't attempt a sea cliff line like this under their own steam, presuming of course they are steady at 4c and can manage their end of the ropes.

How I would manage it is either go early and get first on route, or go later in the day. Alternatively pre-warn clients if it's busy you'll switch to plan B, dashed back and do Lighthouse Arete or similar there. 

In reply to FreshSlate:youre jumping to assumptions ... likely scenario - you can climb a bit, haven't done much trad, so you ask a guide to take you up reputedly the best low/mid grade climb in Wales....

In reply to S.Y.Rock.Skills:

I think he's "smeared" his own reputation by his more than somewhat questionable behaviour.

As for the apology, that should have been done at the time, that is, not left until after he discovered that his behaviour had been reported and realised that his arrogance wasn't being swept under the carpet.

In reply to fred99:

North Wales is a busy place with many instructors, but everyone knows each other to some degree, many pass work to each other when fully booked or not their niche. Almost all will be face to face at some point at the wall when it's lashing down with rain in autumn (Cold rain as opposed to nice warm summer rain!)

Queue jumping, not fixing this face to face, not waiting for retrieved cam, moaning online... it's not a great look overall. Better they solve their differences privately and delete the thread. 

In reply to S.Y.Rock.Skills:

Some friends had a similar altercation with a big name in the guiding scene on Red Wall E2 5b, South Stack. They were doing the Puffin Traverse to approach the route from below, while a guide - and later his client - abseiled in on top of them from above. The leader of both parties arrived at pretty much the same time. The guide authoritatively made my friends wait.

The jury is out, as I'm unsure who should get to go first in this situation? The guide wouldn't be able to see my friends while setting up his ab anchor and upon committing to the abseil, obviously has the advantage in that he can shoot down his ab rope faster than my friend leading can climb to the start.

As evening approached, the combined time for the guide to lead and client to slowly second, resulted in my friends running out of time and having to reverse the Puffin Traverse, which involved climbing the dangerously chossy ab line.

In reply to steve_gibbs:

The earlier comment seems relevant here:

The guide has no 'authority'.

In reply to wbo2:

This is bollocks. We all share the crags with each other. If instructors are acting in an inconsiderate way and, worse imo, teaching their clients that that's ok then we're all entitled to an opinion. They don't get a free pass to act as they please because they're at work.

In reply to pancakeandchips: no this not bollocks.  There's no point appealing to the greater climbing community if a  guide can't follow common rules.  The stories about guides in the alps are common enough, and it would be nice if similar behaviour didn't happen elsewhere. 

 But thats for guides to say to themselves that they follow the same rules (and this seems a standout rarity). Whys it my problemm to police them

-  

In reply to S.Y.Rock.Skills:

I’ve only ever let a team through twice. Back in the day it was a thing to climb the triumverate of Right Wall, Skull and Midsummer Nights Dream. We were on of large stance of Skull, so no drama. However if that scenario had played out with myself and climbing partner, who is a guide, not AMI, anyone else trying to push in would have risked severe, possibly physical retribution,  as back then it wasn’t all about being nice, mental health and well being, more about anarchy. The only other team we let someone go first was on Footless Crow, as we were waiting for a team out of their depth trying the route. Rab and Martin Boysen arrived and started to curse how long it was taking. I popped out from behind a boulder and told them it would be even longer as we were there first. I thought Martin was going to have a coronary, so, taking pity I let them through. After we descended the incompetents having seen two teams of old men cruise the route, went back up. A huge lob from the moves left landed the leader with a smack on the slab below accompanied by much squawking. Rab in his broad Glasgow accent shouted up “I’ve no sympathy, you shouldnae try routes that are too hard” and off we went down to the pub.

I realise those days have long been consigned to the dustbin of history, but my generation sometimes miss them.
As an aside with regard to relative experience on climbs, I once took a father and son team with no previous climbing experience whatsoever up the Hornli as their one and only alpine climb. Went like clockwork with no problems and gave them something to look back on with fondness. Happy days.

In reply to Philb1950:

I think the only obvious solution for the OP and this fella is a duel, Cromlech Boulders at dawn, axes? 

In reply to Allovesclimbin:

Because you'd have given them a stern talking to?

In reply to Philb1950:

In turn I have little sympathy for teams that come to grief or get frustrated on crowded routes.

Either get there earlier, or go somewhere else. If you choose to climb behind other parties then fine, but don't complain about being held up.

In reply to S.Y.Rock.Skills:

Guy sounds an arse even if he did apologise. 

In reply to Allovesclimbin:

They definitely weren't total beginners. He said he'd taken them up Castell Helen and they had shown more than enough capacity.

In reply to S.Y.Rock.Skills:

Sounds like the clients overestimated their abilities and the instructor didn’t test them before getting on DoWH. Could have been an ‘entertaining’ traverse rescue mission if a client had come off where the gear had popped out.

Jumping ahead is a bit rude but in principle I don’t think it’s a crazy thing to do on such a popular route, given it’s possible to skip the first pitch (whichever way you do that pitch). In fact it would be reasonable if the party already on the route was moving slowly and the guided party was going to move fast (especially with just one client). Sounds like this wasn’t the case though. Bottom line is, it’s going to be hard to get DoWH to yourself on a decent day and as soon as there’s anyone else on the route, you’re potentially in for a delay. 

In reply to planetmarshall:

Yes 

I had a random Swiss guide unclip me from a belay halfway up a 400m route once without even a word spoken)

That would be a criminal offence and treated as such in Switzerland. 

In reply to S.Y.Rock.Skills:

We were also in Wen Zawn on different routes and witnessed this circus.

Hadn’t notice the queue jumping but the clients were clearly well out of their depth even on the rap down needing constant shouting to with instruction and encouragement from the guide. 

It was a miracle that nobody got hurt. I’m sure the guide’s very capable ropework kept everyone safe but I doubt that the clients actually enjoyed the experience. The atmosphere created with all the shouting certainly adversely affected our day out.

Guides need to make a living but that shouldn’t be at the expense of spoiling the experience of others climbing nearby.

Perhaps more thorough vetting of clients in future before embarking on routes like Dream?

In reply to S.Y.Rock.Skills:

A few years ago now, I was on Ben Nevis on the most beautiful day.  Blue sky, cold, not a breath of wind.  We looked at Orion Face Direct - it had people on it, but we thought 'If we don't do it today, we'll never do it'.  

Conditions were immaculate - it turned out to be Grade 3 with a very short passage of 4.

Just as we were tying on an MIC with two in tow stepped over our ropes.  About 30 seconds later I was hot on his heels.  He reached the belay, saw me and said, 'You're quick'.  I was minded to say, 'No, you're slow', but settled for a 'Hmm' and hoped that he would concede. He didn't and by the time I'd deconflicted our ropes and set up a belay out of his way his clients has just started up.  My partner then dawdled up after them.  This continued for a while.  

It was a beautiful day, and it was a magnificent place to be, and so we just chatted and bumbled along at the back of the traffic.  Then it all opened up and there was a splendid cluster of guides, clients and others, but plenty of space to overtake.  Conditions were superb and so off we went.  We both found the solitary rock-strike on the whole route.  Brilliant day out.

Maybe we enjoyed it more through dawdling.  Maybe the clients would have had a better day out if they hadn't barged in front and had people on their heels for some time.  Would the MIC and the clients have had to spend longer on the route? Maybe 10 minutes.  Were the clients struggling? Yes.  Do I think well of the MIC?  Nope.