/ Removable bolts verses fixed bolts

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DWS gibraltar - on 07 Feb 2019

I’ve just been given permission to bolt a quarried limestone crag ( not the UK ) I was thinking of useing  glue in bolts for the belays and removable bolts https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrJ6R37KVxcnG0ATIPBGOd_;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1549572732/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2frockandice.com%2fgear-reviews%2fbolting%2fclimb-tech-removable-bolt-2%2f/RK=2/RS=V1O_.NtY3knVf_PEjGSseVFrJqA- Any thoughts would be appreciated. Cheers 

Post edited at 14:07
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jimtitt - on 07 Feb 2019
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

If you can afford it! They get damaged very easily if you fall on them or weight them heavily, you usually need the special driver and a hammer to get them out and the holes get filled with crud.

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DWS gibraltar - on 07 Feb 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

Apparently the newer one come  out easily but definitely food for thought . I was thinking it would be cheaper to a quip the routes  as the climber would need his own set to climb. All I would be doing is fixing anchors and drilling holes but I hadn’t thought of the hole been filled with dirt!

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HeMa on 07 Feb 2019
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

I do not have Jim's experience on the matter.

But I would like to ask you a question. Why are you climbing these routes, for others to enjoy or for your own pleasure. If the former, then perhaps focus on quality and 'proper' bolts all the way (after all, not many people own those removable bolts and certainly not in the amounts you might need). If the latter, well what ever works and you're happy with.

BTW. where I live, the BMC equavalent gives the bolts and the glue to the developers, so pretty much all of the routes have glue in Fixe bolts.

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DWS gibraltar - on 07 Feb 2019
In reply to HeMa:

This Will be the first crag bolted here but the powers that be don’t much like climbers .I didn’t want to give them any excuse to stop the climbing  because of aesthetics.I will probably end up glueing.

Post edited at 14:31
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HeMa on 07 Feb 2019
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

paint the glue-ins with spraypaint that sort of matches the color of the rock (or rather use two colors). Makes finding the line harder though.

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Dan Arkle - on 07 Feb 2019
In reply to DWS Gibraltar:

It sort of sounds like a solution but in reality nobody is going to buy a set of removable bolts to use at one crag. Just bolt it properly, or you could do anchors for a toprope only venue in the meantime. 

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Rick Graham on 07 Feb 2019
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

I think it fair to say that Jim's bolt product glue ins are the current "best practice" bolts.

Ask him for advice on the most suitable of his products, especially as it appears to be in a marine environment.

His comments on the climb tech ones are relevent , you are using them in a situation for which they were not primarily designed.

The climb tech legacy bolt may be more suitable as a temporary measure. When you are sure of a final ideal position for the climbing bolts , replace with glue ins.

Another temporary option is the screw in thunder bolts ideally M12. I have used these for personal routes and use without squarms. However some test reports condemn  their use, others recommend them , take your pick!

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Stefan Jacobsen - on 07 Feb 2019
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

I agree with what is said in the article and by jimtitt. The removable bolts are nice to have when establishing routes, especially the overhanging ones. To avoid them getting stuck, just don't sink them too deep.

If you decide to establish routes for removable bolts only, you need not to drill the holes as deep as usual, and they can have a 10 degrees tilt to avoid the accumulation of water and dirt. The problem is, only a few own this kind of protection.

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Frank the Husky - on 07 Feb 2019
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

You haven't said why you think removable bolts are an option. It's a complete and pointless waste of time as far as I can see. Who owns these things? Probably no one, therefore your routes won't get climbed.

Just use normal bolts and be done with it.

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DWS gibraltar - on 07 Feb 2019
In reply to Frank the Husky:

Its was just an idea to lesson the visual impact  I wasn’t sure myself .

Post edited at 15:15
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jkarran - on 07 Feb 2019
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

> Apparently the newer one come  out easily but definitely food for thought . I was thinking it would be cheaper to a quip the routes  as the climber would need his own set to climb. All I would be doing is fixing anchors and drilling holes but I hadn’t thought of the hole been filled with dirt!

Since nobody owns a set or uses them for sport climbing your routes won't get much attention. Your call though. Personally I'd maybe get one or two to help with equipping the routes properly.

jk

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Presley Whippet on 07 Feb 2019
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

The Edwards tried something similar a while ago, the enp, you put a wire into a string loaded thingy drilled into the rock. It didn't catch on. 

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Rick Graham on 07 Feb 2019
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> The Edwards tried something similar a while ago, the enp, you put a wire into a string loaded thingy drilled into the rock. It didn't catch on. 

Yeah f....ng things. A home made thingy where the spring seized up so you could not push a nut  in . A rock 3 if you had the right age of nut usually fitted but sometimes a 2 was needed or was it a 4?

If you fell or weighted the gear a purpose made removal tool was required , just what you needed when 1000 miles from your home workshop .

Not the Edwards finest hour.

Must have all seized up by now so at least we all know the score. Got a pleasant surprise on phantom arête though, went armed with every spare rock 3 I possessed, only to find a line of newly installed bolts.

Thanks mark .

Post edited at 19:15
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paul__in_sheffield - on 07 Feb 2019
In reply to Presley Whippet:

I repeated a couple of ENP type routes where you had to wriggle an RP into a slot in a tube. Can’t remember exactly where, but I do remember incredible run-outs as I simply couldn’t see or find the gear placements. Not my favourite gear!

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dreadlockpasta - on 07 Feb 2019
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

Er all these replies, and no mention of looking at trad options . You may only need a bolt belay to avoid the choss top out ,and the cost of bolts!

On a slight tangent, I'm sure I heard about somewhere drilling expansion/rawl bolt hole deeper than needed, so if a route was done trad, the hanger could be removed and the stud hammered till flush? 

Or you could go down the Oz route of removable  (key hole ) hangers!

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Rick Graham on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to dreadlockpasta:

The bolting bible can be easily summarised.

Do it right or do not bother.

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fred99 - on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to paul__in_sheffield:

> I repeated a couple of ENP type routes where you had to wriggle an RP into a slot in a tube. Can’t remember exactly where, but I do remember incredible run-outs as I simply couldn’t see or find the gear placements. Not my favourite gear!


Same thoughts here. The sizes that fitted were 2 and 3 only. Not many people have more than a couple of these, so this meant making decisions as to when to actually use the ones we did have - assuming we could find their location in the first place.

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paul__in_sheffield - on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to fred99:

> Same thoughts here. The sizes that fitted were 2 and 3 only. Not many people have more than a couple of these, so this meant making decisions as to when to actually use the ones we did have - assuming we could find their location in the first place.

I think I used them on a couple of multipitches in Spain, but also I think there may have been some in Intake quarry in the Peaks

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andyr - on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to DWS gibraltar:

I use them quite often when new routing (mine are the previous version to these). They work well; but the principle point is that they save you from the expense of leaving a bolt in place. This can be considerable. The last route I did on this basis was nine pitches and I probably used them about fifty times. As I would only use a 316 bolt this adds up to a couple of hundred pounds. 

If you are doing the route for yourself and that's it; then they are a useful tool. If you are opening a route for others to climb then a situ bolt is more appropriate.

Andy

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