UKC

Hey,

I'm trying to get into TRS for the purpose of working steep, hard, single pitch, sport projects at my own pace. I've been looking into it online and in books, but honestly a lot of it is quite heavy and hard to understand, especially without diagrams and not being in person. I asked a friend of mine about his setup, and I thought I'd check it over with others here who may be more experienced. 

- Figure 8 on a bight one end of my (dynamic) rope, and attach to equalised twin rings with sling.

- Abseil to base of route using Grigri 

- At base, coil leftover rope and clove hitch to the end of the rope to provide weight, so that the rope feeds through my device

- Attach Grigri to my belay loop, pass the rope through it, and climb

- Tie overhand on a bight a few meters up to prevent ground fall if Grigri fails

- Upon reaching crux, tie another overhand on bight just for peace of mind. Then work crux

- When finished, lower self to base, untying knots as I go

How does this sound? Most other sources say to use traxions, but I can't really tell why other than for an extra backup in case of Grigri failure. I'd prefer to avoid buying expensive extra gear if possible (poor university student)

Thanks!

The main problem with a grigri is that if it's steep and hard it will be a pain in the ass to pull in the slack. That's why people use traxions. So it feeds without having to have 1 arm free. 

Downside of traxions is that you cant really lower on most of them easily. So they are good for volume but less good if you want to try a longer crux over and over again.

Biggest risks are abseiling off end of rope followed by cutting the rope through abrasion followed by user error with equipment. 

For your use case I'd suggest looking into the taz lov,  superior to both grigri and the traxion systems in my opinion.

I'd also recommend watching the Avant climbing/ Hownot2 YouTube videos on TRS as it covers some other critical things that you have not mentioned; edge protection for example. 

here’s the HowNot2 link - it’s everything you need to know:

https://youtu.be/DHgozZxLbyo?si=1878NkG86MQJIG1h

(it was written before the TazLov became popular, but essentially the Taz just replaces the MicroTrax in his setup, still with an Edelrod Spoc as the backup device below)

Hi Samben6

TRS standards have changed a lot of the years, and there is certainly many different ways to do it.  You will find lots of people want to tell you their way of doing it that has worked perfectly for them, and others who have a better system that they use etc etc, that being said, there are certainly ways in which not to do it that you should avoid. 

You've done the right thing though in asking if you are unsure, as I have seen/heard some very bizarre setups in the past that are just plain dangerous. 

If you are finding the reading heavy / hard to understand maybe consider more practical sessions, a few guides are offering tuition on this now, or go out with someone who knows what they are doing and that you trust. If you are local to Bristol / Wye Valley I am happy to take you out for a morning and show you my setup that's evolved over the last 10 years or so. 

As Kylos said, a gri gri and knots isn't really ideal, there are better ways.  Some people may use this for rehearsing a couple of moves on a crux sequence but for feeding up an entire route it is far from ideal and has a fair few flaws. 

Rope choice needs to be thought of too, a dynamic rope can be used for TRS but is not ideal because of the repeated stretching over edges/rocks, and while a good rope protector might mitigate this a static rope + protector should be used. 

A single shunt was considered pretty safe for a long time and now people are moving away from this, a single rope with two devices is now pretty standard for TRS. 

I totally get that you are a student but don't let cost be a reason to cut corners on something you should be doing right. 

In a nutshell: Static line on a bomber anchor, edge protection, 2x devices self feeding separated such that they do not interfere (Taz Lov3 + traxion, or shunt + traxion), weight the rope so it feeds better, check everything twice, weight the rope 1 move after you set off to check everything. 
If you do use a device that you can't abseil on (benefit of Taz Lov), you need to know how to get off the weighted line and resume abseiling if you can't get to the top. 
 

No issues with the majority of the set up but I would always tie an extra knot at the anchor and attach it to one of the bolts, just in case, god forbid, anything happened to the sling.

As stated earlier in the thread, a grigri is good for working a few moves at a time but if you're starting to link a project together and not expecting to lower as much I would switch to a trax of some variety, still tying knots as you go up.

The Avant guy says the Edelrid Spoc works better as the backup device than a Traxion because the cam comes out the bottom with a Spoc. In the event two devices clash there is a risk the primary device could prevent the cam on a Traxion engaging. (Not sure I’ve explained this well)

Hi Twiggy, you explained it perfectly well enough. 

There can be issues with some devices interfering with others, Yann Camus on youtube did extensive testing on combos of gear, and I'm sure a Spoc is  a good device. In practice the traxion works well as a bottom device as the cam & rope feeds out the bottom still, it would be less ideal as a top device depending on separation and what the other device is etc etc. 

The slight worrying issue with the micro traxion is the ability to lock the teeth up, you can get round this by using a nano traxion or by a small modification at the users risk.  

Hey BStar,

Thanks for that, super useful little rundown. I am actually based in Bristol! So if you have any free time, a little tutorial would be very helpful! I've got a car so can travel if needed, no worries if you're busy. Thanks!

Have you checked out Petzl's page? It has plenty of diagrams:

https://m.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Self-belay--solo-climbing-with-one-or-two-f...

The function of the microtrax to lock out the teeth makes it work nicely as a back up device under a Taz Lov, because when you want to descend, you can lock out the teeth on the microtrax while leaving the microtrax on the rope, then descend on the Taz Lov, and then click the Micro-trax teeth back in before re-ascending. Some might find the lockout function worrying but others view it as safe and convenient.

https://youtube.com/@yanncamusblissclimbing?si=mI21VRf8BGt_ayhH

Yann Camus YouTube channel is THE online resource for top rope solo and lead rope solo. Enjoy...

Agree (well i use a Spoc but for the same function), its just about checking both devices are ready to catch before leaving climbing again

This is key. If you're not racing the clock on some crazy solo Yosemite route, there's no rush. 5 secs check of everything before you climb or descend, every time. If people are on their own they are their own rescue if it goes wrong, knock yourself unconscious and there is no one to call 999. 

I'd add something else not mentioned yet, because you want to work steep terrain you will want to work from a tensioned rope close to the face, otherwise the weighted rope will be constantly pulling you away from the face and when you fall you will swing out away from the face, resulting in you needing to lower back down.

Not all devices that are used for TRS are suitable for tensioned ropes so it is well worth setting up a test of what you want to do to practise and ensure your systems and processes are dialled. 

I hope you enjoy it, I find TRS to be very freeing.   

I watched the HowNot2/Avant video last night and have a couple of questions for you, or for anyone else with an opinion.

1. They used the Micro traxion as the top device with the modified Spoc as the lower device. But you appear to be recommending the opposite (above you say the Micro traxion is preferred as bottom but not top device). What is your reasoning?

2. When you talk about the Microtraxion teeth locking up, do you mean accidentally converting to pulley mode? If so, how does the Nano get round this?

3. Why does everyone use two different devices? It strikes me that two Spocs with the cord cut so they can't go into pulley mode would be safer and slightly cheaper than Micrortraxion + Spoc.

The general idea with using two devices is so that you aren't exposed to the risk of your redundancy being made useless by a common failure mode on that particular device.

Personally, a Taz Lov 2/3 with backup knots, and a well rigged, protected chunky single rope, is the gold standard. No unnecessary faff/risk messing with changing devices, just up, down as you please.

Its to do with where the pivot is for the camming action. I think the Avant guy is saying a Traxion pivets upwards to grab the rope, whereas the SPOC pivots downwards. So Trax goes above and SPOC below so they’d be pivoting away from each other even if the clash.

i use a Taz above and SPOC below because the Taz allows you to descend without having to swap to a grigri.

Thanks!

It seems that the Taz Lov 3 is the best option, apart from the eye watering cost.

Having recently purchased a grigri I'm highly resistant to the idea of spending over £200 on a Taz Lov 3.

For a similar amount of money I could get a full setup of semi static rope, a Traxion and a Spoc, so will likely go down this route.

Hi Gav, 

There are lots of valid setups, and for every setup there's pros and cons and people on the internet willing to defend there's and say others are dangerous etc ... Looks like there's been some good chat on here re: traxion and spoc, both are good devices.  

1. I don't own a spoc, but own  a couple of micro and nano traxions from years gone by for hauling / crevasse purposes.  I have the traxion as my bottom piece when having a Taz lov on top; this makes it easier to convert to descending.   If you look at how traxions load onto the rope and pivot when loaded, they are in my opinion (and many other peoples) perfectly usable as a bottom backup device and it would be extremely unlikely to interfere with a 'failed' top device. 

2. Yes, teeth locking up accidentally into pulley mode can happen (albeit unlikely) on a micro traxion, or you forget to put them down in the first place (possibly more likely), the nano traxion does not have a lock up function: the trade off is that the nano traxion isn't quite as smooth.  I modified my micro traxion to take off a 1mm nub that holds the teeth up, but this isn't for everyone and will certainly be triggering for some people. 

3. Type failure has been mentioned, ie one fault common to both devices, sometimes it's having kit in your bag already that you can repurpose or use for something else, the reality is two devices that are the same is going to be absolutely fine.   

For me the Taz lov3 is one of the best devices as it can be used to ascend and descend easily, BUT, it is possible to fall in such a way that the device slides down the rope without catching, hence the need for a second device or system such as knots. 

Last bit from me,

I spend a fair bit of time on TRS at my local cliffs which justified the purchase. 

Changing systems half way up (going from TRS to descending) introduces risk, and if you do it regularly enough there's chance of cocking it up. 

There's also risk of dropping devices etc mid way through change over, which you don't get with the Taz lov. 

If you have weighted the rope at the bottom, it can be difficult to put a bend in the rope to go through a descending device, and then just as hard to abseil on a weighted line - both of these are removed with the Taz Lov.  

Thanks for that, helps me to clarify my requirements!

What I have in mind is improving my technique by repeatedly top roping reasonably short trad routes.

I am prone to strong and sudden enthusiasms, but as these are often also rather shortlived I'm keen to get up and running without spending a fortune.

I think I will buy two simple devices, perhaps a Spoc and a Shunt (lots of them on ebay for not much money) and see how I go.

If it becomes regular habit I will upgrade to a Taz Lov.

Lots of good advice on this thread so I won't add much more to the practical side of things. Instead I will remind you to double-triple-quadruple check your systems, especially the first few times.

The very first time I went to TR solo my sport project I very nearly got stuck at the anchor with no rope. I had abbed in from the top of the cliff to set up the main system from the anchor. After reaching and clipping the anchor safely, I took myself off abseil and watched with horror as the rope swung away from me and out of my grasp. Fortunately I could juuust stretch out from the chains and reach it with my fingertips! But I was alone, nobody else was at the crag, and phone reception was patchy. Had I not been able to reach it, I might well have been stuck there for quite some time!

I have decades of climbing experience in all sorts of situations, and feel confident of my abilities and knowledge - and yet I still made a very stupid mistake.

So, by all means go out TR soloing (once over that initial fright, I got quite into it), but make sure you carefully think through every single action - especially every clip and unclip - to be safe. And make sure somebody knows where you are, and what time you expect to be home. Enjoy!

A shunt on a maillon on your belay loop, and a spoc below it extended on a dog bone would work pretty well I would think.  Shunts are out of fashion but I used one for years without issue and work fine if you pay attention to what you are doing, and having a backup device below would eliminate the upside down unclipping incident that has seen their demise on the internet in recent years.

you need to make sure your backup device will still lockup if your primary device fails and slams into it.  Rope choice and edge protection / re-belaying are also crucial to avoid sheath damage.

i’m inverness based and TRS a fair bit and have played about with lots of variations of devices and systems.  If you want to meet up sometime and have a go, send me a message.  I don’t proclaim to be an expert, and I certainly don’t climb hard, but I’ve probably worked through most of the pitfalls and you can have a play before you decide what to buy etc.

If you do use a Shunt, then make sure you look up and understand the failure mode where the device can become fully detached from the rope, people have decked because of it. Personally I would choose a setup that doesn't feature that particular....feature.