UKC

Hi!

Labelling, in English, the different grading systems used for ski-touring and ski-mountaineering itineraries is not straightforward as many of these were initially developed in French, German or Italian.

The interactive guidebook http://www.camptocamp.org is being translated so that English speakers can use and contribute to it. What do the backcountry skiers among you think of the definitions and labels given in this article: http://www.camptocamp.org/articles/107675/en ?

Thanks for your feed-back!

Fabien

In reply to FabienenCordoba:
The English could be improved a little
eg
S1 such as vehicle trackS for example. (although I would have written forest tracks)
S2 : .. maybe fairly steep (25°).
S4 : Slopes up to 45°, if exposure iS low or between 30 and 40° if it is high or the passage is narrow
S5 : ... As well as a perfect downhill skiing technique, control of nerves becomes very important at this level of difficulty.


Have you seen the N American system proposed by Lou Dawson (http://www.wildsnow.com/articles/ratings/ski-board-d-rating-system.html ) ?

Personally I prefer the Labande system but then I don't ski steep/dangerous stuff

In reply to Doug:

Thanks for your comments. The Dawson scale is interesting. Which system would you say british skiers are most familiar with, if any?

In France, the Toponeige system is preferred by fans of steep skiing.

In reply to FabienenCordoba:
Not sure if I'm the right person to ask - I've lived in France for the last 10 years. Most British skiers I know are probably most familiar with the 'traditional' French/Swiss system of MS, BS, BSA, TBS etc, augmented with S1, S2 etc.

There's also a system used by the Eagke Ski Club to grade club trips although this also tries to take into account the difference between day tours, hut to hut or camping - see http://www.eagleskiclub.org.uk/grading.htm

In reply to FabienenCordoba:

I'm most familiar with the descent grade, but then again I'm more of a skier than a climber... plus I'm not british nor do I live there.

Andrews book for Wasatch (fark, that's a difficult name to spell) also uses the descent grade.

In reply to Doug:
Italian skiers seem to use the MS, BS... grades (at least that's what they say on the forums). One reason more to offer an equivalence between the grading systems.

The Eagles Ski Club is very impressive! Where are they based? In Scotland?

PS: I saw you had an account on camptocamp and sent you an email through the interface. Tell me if you didn't receive it...

In reply to HeMa:
It seems the descent grade is quite popular... although I learned to use the Toponeige grade and now find it more meaningful (separating technical difficulty and exposure...). It's all a matter of getting used to the grading system I guess.

"Descent grade": is that how English speakers actually call the S1, S2... system?

In reply to FabienenCordoba: The Eagles aren't really based anywhere, members are pretty widely spread across Britain & much of Europe.

I know I had an account at www.skirando.ch but have not seen any email from them for a long while

In reply to FabienenCordoba:


In Chuting Gallery, it was dubbed as "Steepness Rating" even though Andrew also noted the steepness/pitch in degrees... Which means he's more or less using a skiing version of the british E-grade (pitch being the "technical" and steepness giving the "exposure").

In reply to FabienenCordoba: Wow there are grades to skiing? I generally just either ask people what the gradient is or just drop in & suck it & see.

But in all seriousness yes i knew there are grading systems. Never been particularly bothered by them as i know what i can ski in terms of gradient. I've sufficient experience that i know i can ski virtually anything up to x degrees so long as the conditions aren't unfavourable. If looking to ski something I'll do it on the basis of the gradient.

In reply to Frank4short:

Of course there are...

Fancy giving this a go:
http://www.pawprince.com/pawprince/writings/tcg_page/Foto/JPG/grunge.jpg

Only feeble S6 and pretty safe:
http://www.pawprince.com/pawprince/writings/tcg_page/Grunge.html

In reply to HeMa: I'd be curious to find out what some of the more serious trad steep descents in the valley go at e.g. the mallory, whymper, poubelles (both of them) & gervasutti. Any ideas?

In reply to Frank4short:

I seem to recall Anselme rated 'em as well with the S-dealio. If not, the link OP posted gives a pretty good idea in regards to pitch and exposure.

My memorybanks are pretty empty, but seem to recall Gervasutti getting something like S5 (+).

In reply to HeMa: You don't have a copy of the book of death handy then? I've been meaning to buy one for years but still haven't gotten around to it.

In reply to Frank4short:

Nope... only have that Chuting Gallery, since I'll be headin' there shortly . Gonna pick up me new skis and ski something fun around UT,WY and whatnot.

In reply to Frank4short:

But you could also search camptocamp.org...

Eg. Whymper on Verte is S5:
http://www.camptocamp.org/routes/54309/fr

In reply to FabienenCordoba:


Found your email this morning

Checked a couple of British ski mountaineering guidebooks (Bill O'Connor's Alpine Ski Mountaineering Volume 1: Western Alps & Jeremy Whitehead's Ski guide - Southern French Alps) and both use a mix of Traynard (S)& Blachère systems although Jeremy translates the later into English to give 'GS, VGS, etc

I find this a good overview of European systems -http://www.ffme.fr/ski-alpinisme/cotation/histoire.htm

Lou Dawson doesn't seem to be able to get the European systems right on his website although myself & other Europeans tried to help him in the past on the website of the former Couloir magazine

In reply to Doug:

So the email works. Excellent! The overview by FFME is really good... but it's all in French. I guess it would be nice to offer users of camptocamp an idea of what S and global grades correspond to in the Blachère system.

Looking in camptocamp:
- Couloir Gervasutti at Tour Ronde is TD/S5 (50°/250m with short 55° sections): http://www.camptocamp.org/routes/54292/fr
- Couloir Gervasutti at Tour ronde is TD+/S6 (45-55°/700m): http://www.camptocamp.org/routes/52981/fr