This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
I've been trying to work out the real deal on crevass danger when skiing after hearing a million differing opinions. Can anyone recommend some good books or websites with an authoritative view, perhaps based on factual data like accident case study?
I would like to develop a list of best practices, if there isn't one already out there. The winter is coming and I, as well as many others, will do a lot of glaciar skiing. How can we be as safe as possible, and if it is not objectively safe, should we avoid it completely?
Here's my conclusions to date:
1) Skiing downhill roped together is unfortunately impractical in almost all cases.
2) But you should switch to a roped, crampon, belayed decent if you get yourself in a commited spot where exposure and/or snow bridges merit it. (Better to not get yourself in this spot to begin with though, if possible!)
3) Good routefinding is the key to safety. Respect crevassed zones and constantly evaluate the terrain for likelihood of hidden crevasses. Do not ski in those areas. Avoid skiing over obviously weak bridges and see point 2 for those situations where it is unavoidable. Be especially careful of areas with many tracks - the tracks hide terrain features and you could find yourself in an area you would never ski if you could actually see what it looked like.
4) Be very mindful of avalanche danger and exposure on a micro-level, and ski well in control, to avoid skiing or falling into a dangerous area.
5) When skinning *up* a slope, the logic that skis offer some protection is diminished. Always rope up.
6) If following the above, objective danger (that is, completely unexpected fall in an area that seems safe) is very slim.
Regarding point 1: The few times I've tried it was horrible... we pulled each other down to the ground many times and besides which you go to enjoy skiing and ski fast - roped together you must move extremely slow - might as well walk in that case! But see point 3.
There are two points in particular I would like to hear others opinions on:
Point 6 --- So far I have yet to hear a concrete story of somebody doing this, ever, when *skiing downhill*. Although I did hear a story where a guy missed an obvious snow bridge until the last minute while skiing a heavily tracked out area, put on the brakes, and accidently fell, breaking the bridge and falling through. And I've heard rumers of stories, but when I find out the details it seems like all of them were not when skiing downhill, or were similar to the above (that is, they were arguably avoidable by taking a particular precation).
Point 3 --- begges the question "What is the limits of safe terrain?" I've seen lines in the Vallee Blanche that I thought were insane, while I've skied lines on Kline Matterhorn where others thought *I* was insane. Some people think you are insane if you go off the marked piste at all. Could it be treated in a similar way as with avalanche risk assessment? It seems like it would be possible to build a fairly objective "crevass danger assessment" of a given slope, similar to how you would analyse the slope for avalanche potential. Everybody does this already, but my concern is that everybody has wildly differing views of how safe a given slope is. What are the factors? How safe is, say, the Envers du Plan route in the Vallee Blanche? (That is, if I follow all the precations, what is the level of objective danger in terms of chances of an accident?) Is the Mirror Wall at Kliene Matterhorn a "Red Flag" route (very dangerous) or a "Green flag" route (objectively quite safe if precations are followed).
Thanks for reading and in advance for your comments!
I would like to develop a list of best practices, if there isn't one already out there. The winter is coming and I, as well as many others, will do a lot of glaciar skiing. How can we be as safe as possible, and if it is not objectively safe, should we avoid it completely?
Here's my conclusions to date:
1) Skiing downhill roped together is unfortunately impractical in almost all cases.
2) But you should switch to a roped, crampon, belayed decent if you get yourself in a commited spot where exposure and/or snow bridges merit it. (Better to not get yourself in this spot to begin with though, if possible!)
3) Good routefinding is the key to safety. Respect crevassed zones and constantly evaluate the terrain for likelihood of hidden crevasses. Do not ski in those areas. Avoid skiing over obviously weak bridges and see point 2 for those situations where it is unavoidable. Be especially careful of areas with many tracks - the tracks hide terrain features and you could find yourself in an area you would never ski if you could actually see what it looked like.
4) Be very mindful of avalanche danger and exposure on a micro-level, and ski well in control, to avoid skiing or falling into a dangerous area.
5) When skinning *up* a slope, the logic that skis offer some protection is diminished. Always rope up.
6) If following the above, objective danger (that is, completely unexpected fall in an area that seems safe) is very slim.
Regarding point 1: The few times I've tried it was horrible... we pulled each other down to the ground many times and besides which you go to enjoy skiing and ski fast - roped together you must move extremely slow - might as well walk in that case! But see point 3.
There are two points in particular I would like to hear others opinions on:
Point 6 --- So far I have yet to hear a concrete story of somebody doing this, ever, when *skiing downhill*. Although I did hear a story where a guy missed an obvious snow bridge until the last minute while skiing a heavily tracked out area, put on the brakes, and accidently fell, breaking the bridge and falling through. And I've heard rumers of stories, but when I find out the details it seems like all of them were not when skiing downhill, or were similar to the above (that is, they were arguably avoidable by taking a particular precation).
Point 3 --- begges the question "What is the limits of safe terrain?" I've seen lines in the Vallee Blanche that I thought were insane, while I've skied lines on Kline Matterhorn where others thought *I* was insane. Some people think you are insane if you go off the marked piste at all. Could it be treated in a similar way as with avalanche risk assessment? It seems like it would be possible to build a fairly objective "crevass danger assessment" of a given slope, similar to how you would analyse the slope for avalanche potential. Everybody does this already, but my concern is that everybody has wildly differing views of how safe a given slope is. What are the factors? How safe is, say, the Envers du Plan route in the Vallee Blanche? (That is, if I follow all the precations, what is the level of objective danger in terms of chances of an accident?) Is the Mirror Wall at Kliene Matterhorn a "Red Flag" route (very dangerous) or a "Green flag" route (objectively quite safe if precations are followed).
Thanks for reading and in advance for your comments!
In reply to John Blab:
I've always viewed it as a bit of a lottery. If you're around the glacier you want to ski in summer (as local guides will be) you can probably remember where the giant holes are, which will help. Also some knowledge of the season's snowfall and weather can give you some clues as to the likely strength of snowbridges.
Having said that, I know a couple of people who've fallen down big (25 meter) holes whilst out with guides. On both occasions the poor sods in question had no idea they were on snowbridges, which failed underneath them.
So I suppose it's much like avalanche assessment, you can manage the risk to a degree, but even the really experienced can get unlucky.
BTW, I thoroughly recommend Envers du Plan - particularly the Grand Envers route (if you like it steep).
I've always viewed it as a bit of a lottery. If you're around the glacier you want to ski in summer (as local guides will be) you can probably remember where the giant holes are, which will help. Also some knowledge of the season's snowfall and weather can give you some clues as to the likely strength of snowbridges.
Having said that, I know a couple of people who've fallen down big (25 meter) holes whilst out with guides. On both occasions the poor sods in question had no idea they were on snowbridges, which failed underneath them.
So I suppose it's much like avalanche assessment, you can manage the risk to a degree, but even the really experienced can get unlucky.
BTW, I thoroughly recommend Envers du Plan - particularly the Grand Envers route (if you like it steep).
In reply to John Blab: A friend did manage to fall into a hidden crevasse while skiing downhill and from what i gather it was far from extreme terrain. It was in the oeztal.
I think careful route choice is best. look to ski the glacier in smoother eg think of it as a river and choose the spots where there would be no white water.
roping up is useful if your scared its slow but if you leave your skins and its not too steep you;ll survive. Much faster than crampone etc in heavy snow
If you know a friendly guide they may have some technical/statistical literature.
I remember pete cliff telling a course i did that he's only heard of a single fatality involving crevasses while roped...
I think careful route choice is best. look to ski the glacier in smoother eg think of it as a river and choose the spots where there would be no white water.
roping up is useful if your scared its slow but if you leave your skins and its not too steep you;ll survive. Much faster than crampone etc in heavy snow
If you know a friendly guide they may have some technical/statistical literature.
I remember pete cliff telling a course i did that he's only heard of a single fatality involving crevasses while roped...
In reply to John Blab: One thing you're missing is that local knowledge is key. As in it's all well n good to talk about guides in cham say on the glacier in summer knowing lots. Same goes for the ski bums. Especially in the cham/midi thing there are a lot of people that by and large only ski the midi. If you're doing 2 or 3 runs a day 3 to 5 days a week for 2+ months you're going to have a very good idea of where's safe(r) & where isn't.
In reply to John Blab: A guide once told me the story of how he stopped on a glacier to wait for his clients. Client one stopped beside him and their combined weight broke the snow bridge that they were both standing on. Both unconscious for a while, but both survived.
> [Frank4short] Especially in the cham/midi thing there are a lot of people that by and large only ski the midi. If you're doing 2 or 3 runs a day 3 to 5 days a week for 2+ months you're going to have a very good idea of where's safe(r) & where isn't.
Well but that's why I started this thread. I probably skied various routes on the Midi three dozen times when I did a season there in 2003. Add to that several dozen days on the glaciar in 2004 here in Zermatt. If I talk to other people with that level of familiarity of the mountain, I get wildly differing views of what is safe and what isn't. Particularly striking is the difference in opinion of your average Chamonix skier ("No problem!") and your average Zermatt skier ("Very dangerous!") Just trying to get it all sorted out in my own head as the 2005 season is coming up...
> [MikePemberton] Having said that, I know a couple of people who've fallen down big (25 meter) holes whilst out with guides. On both occasions the poor sods in question had no idea they were on snowbridges, which failed underneath them.
That's some scary stuff. Were those people on skis? Can you give some details?
> [alasdair19] friend did manage to fall into a hidden crevasse while skiing downhill and from what i gather it was far from extreme terrain. It was in the oeztal.
Can you give some details?
> [John2] A guide once told me the story of how he stopped on a glacier to wait for his clients. Client one stopped beside him and their combined weight broke the snow bridge that they were both standing on. Both unconscious for a while, but both survived.
Wow also very scary. Were they on skis? I guess with big crevasses and large snow bridges, skis won't help mitigate the risk much at all...
In reply to John Blab: Get hold of MSP's "Ski Movie 3; the front line" Whilst probably not best practice they have some pretty creative ways of gettng over crevase near pemberton.
In reply to John2: This is one of the basic rules that on a glacier you never group up - except if its black ice. As long as you are on snow and therefore cannot see what is below you you shold keep some distance between the particpants of your group.
In reply to John Blab:
Concerning the behaviour on glaciers following rules are taught in Austria in the training for instructors of alpinism or winter backcountry skiing (summary):
(A) GLACIER IN SUMMER:
ALWAYS USE A ROPE BUT THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS:
1) if there is snow or firn on the glacier - always use a rope
2) if the glacier is blanc AND there is no danger to slide off - you do not need a rope (since you can see all the crevasses and you cannot slide off and injure yourself seriously when it is flat)
3) if the glacier is blanc AND steep and there is a danger that if you slip you might get seriously injured or die - use a rope but only if you can set up a fixed belay (e.g. ice screws)
(B) GLACIER IN WINTER:
That's a tricky one:
In general skiing on a rope is no fun (as everyone who has done it knows) - therefore:
YOU NEED NOT USE A ROPE BUT THERE ARE SOME EXCEPTIONS:
1) A ROPE SHOULD BE USED IN CASE OF(summary of article "Risiko SPaltensturz auf Ski Hochtouren" in "Berg und Steigen" issue 1/2001 - magazine of Austrian Alpine Club):
a)lack of snow - snow early in winter and then little snow afterwards
b)invisibility - if there is mist use a rope!
c)area with a lot of crevasses (actual map, infos of m.-guides, m.-hut guardian) - use a rope!
d)wet snow - > unstable snowbridges - especially in the afternoon in spring - use a rope!
e)fresh snow and wind - you think you can read the forms of the slopes but often this is deceptive! - use a rope
3) always put on your harness when on a glacier (winter and summer)
4) always have at least 5m distance between the participants when skiing
5) only stop in "safe" areas - don't group up
6)never take off both skies at the same time
7) if possible ski down next to the path you came up
8) the argument that if you know a glacier from summer you can ski down without worries is dangerous: glaciers change more and quicker than ever
If you know German - the magazine to look at for more details is:
http://www.bergundsteigen.at/
Here you will find the standard that is taught in Austrian mountaineering. Mountain-guides, instructors und people interested in mountaineering read it.
Also, you will find the statistics of how many people fall into crevasses every year - which people (off piste skiers/snowboarders, backcoutry skiers etc.) ...
Another interesting issue is the USE OF CRAMPONS. Every year I see many people who put on their crampons as soon as they step onto glaciers. This is not very sensible because crampons are dangerous. You can hurt yourself and other people. It does not make much sense to put on crampons in wet slushy snow where they are no help and only dangerous. Often you slide in the snow and crampons can get into other peoples calves or your own...
Often glaciers are covered by a hard snowy cover and it is very comfortable to walk with shoes on it - still many use crampons for some reason ...
Hope, that's any help or gives some more stuff to discuss. These are all suggestions and not to be understood as nailed down "MUSTS". So ideas and critic is interesting!
Have a safe winter/spring skiing!
Concerning the behaviour on glaciers following rules are taught in Austria in the training for instructors of alpinism or winter backcountry skiing (summary):
(A) GLACIER IN SUMMER:
ALWAYS USE A ROPE BUT THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS:
1) if there is snow or firn on the glacier - always use a rope
2) if the glacier is blanc AND there is no danger to slide off - you do not need a rope (since you can see all the crevasses and you cannot slide off and injure yourself seriously when it is flat)
3) if the glacier is blanc AND steep and there is a danger that if you slip you might get seriously injured or die - use a rope but only if you can set up a fixed belay (e.g. ice screws)
(B) GLACIER IN WINTER:
That's a tricky one:
In general skiing on a rope is no fun (as everyone who has done it knows) - therefore:
YOU NEED NOT USE A ROPE BUT THERE ARE SOME EXCEPTIONS:
1) A ROPE SHOULD BE USED IN CASE OF(summary of article "Risiko SPaltensturz auf Ski Hochtouren" in "Berg und Steigen" issue 1/2001 - magazine of Austrian Alpine Club):
a)lack of snow - snow early in winter and then little snow afterwards
b)invisibility - if there is mist use a rope!
c)area with a lot of crevasses (actual map, infos of m.-guides, m.-hut guardian) - use a rope!
d)wet snow - > unstable snowbridges - especially in the afternoon in spring - use a rope!
e)fresh snow and wind - you think you can read the forms of the slopes but often this is deceptive! - use a rope
3) always put on your harness when on a glacier (winter and summer)
4) always have at least 5m distance between the participants when skiing
5) only stop in "safe" areas - don't group up
6)never take off both skies at the same time
7) if possible ski down next to the path you came up
8) the argument that if you know a glacier from summer you can ski down without worries is dangerous: glaciers change more and quicker than ever
If you know German - the magazine to look at for more details is:
http://www.bergundsteigen.at/
Here you will find the standard that is taught in Austrian mountaineering. Mountain-guides, instructors und people interested in mountaineering read it.
Also, you will find the statistics of how many people fall into crevasses every year - which people (off piste skiers/snowboarders, backcoutry skiers etc.) ...
Another interesting issue is the USE OF CRAMPONS. Every year I see many people who put on their crampons as soon as they step onto glaciers. This is not very sensible because crampons are dangerous. You can hurt yourself and other people. It does not make much sense to put on crampons in wet slushy snow where they are no help and only dangerous. Often you slide in the snow and crampons can get into other peoples calves or your own...
Often glaciers are covered by a hard snowy cover and it is very comfortable to walk with shoes on it - still many use crampons for some reason ...
Hope, that's any help or gives some more stuff to discuss. These are all suggestions and not to be understood as nailed down "MUSTS". So ideas and critic is interesting!
Have a safe winter/spring skiing!
In reply to John Blab:
With regard to avalanche assessment it seems the greatest risk is with people that are totally unaware of the danger and with people that think they know all about it...if you get my drift. A lot of avalanche assessors, guides and ski instructors get avalanched because they think they have it sussed and push the boundaries. It's not a precise science!
By the way one of your videos looked pretty dodgy re avalanche conditions...!
Ron
With regard to avalanche assessment it seems the greatest risk is with people that are totally unaware of the danger and with people that think they know all about it...if you get my drift. A lot of avalanche assessors, guides and ski instructors get avalanched because they think they have it sussed and push the boundaries. It's not a precise science!
By the way one of your videos looked pretty dodgy re avalanche conditions...!
Ron
In reply to claka: That's extremely helpful. Thank you very much! I don't speak German but there's a Yahoo! translator thing I can try and I'm really curious the details, especially accident analysis.
In reply to Ron Walker: Avalanche assessment is a whole other ballgame that scares me even more than crevasses. Which video did are you talking about? (And thanks for watching them!)
In reply to Ron Walker: Avalanche assessment is a whole other ballgame that scares me even more than crevasses. Which video did are you talking about? (And thanks for watching them!)
In reply to Ron Walker: I think we're getting incredibly theoretical on this thread...the only question you ever need ask at the top of a glacier is how am I going to ski down here safely today...since there are at least a dozen options the rules are merely statements of commonsense and not what you tell yourself as you line up to start down. If there's so much nervous anxiety about the issue why not enjoy a region like the Silvretta where e.g. the Jamtal glacier can sometimes be run in five minutes in a straight schuss if conditions are right? Otherwise you need as Frank4Short and others have pointed out local knowledge in bucketfuls perhaps gained in summer..
In reply to John Blab:
"That's some scary stuff. Were those people on skis? Can you give some details?"
---------
Both guys were on boards, strapped in, not walking about.
One was on the Rognon galacier just off the side of the Point de Vue run from Grands Montets. He was lucky as no one saw him fall down, and his absence was noted by a count up of numbers in the group. He got pulled out by mountain rescue having been scalped during his fall into the hole. Very nasty incident, it was actually the guide who was with him who told me this story, and I can tell the whole episode haunts him a bit.
Can't quite remember where the second one was, possibly on the Trient plateau somewhere, but that was pure bad luck. The guy I know was following others in his group across a snowbridge and it failed underneath him. He went a long way down, but was pulled out fine, if a little shaken.
Both these guys still snowboard, Jeff still rides on glaciers, not sure about the other chap.
...and the moral of the story? Don't know really. Personally I try to read the terrain as best as possible avoiding suspicious dips, keep my speed up and try not to stop in crevassed sections. I always have a harness and crevasse rescue kit, and probably ought to wear a helmet too. Maybe the best way to minise risk is to make sure there's always someone watching you ski any dodgy sections, although that's exactly the sort of thinking that goes out of the window when there's a group staring at two foot of fresh pow!
"That's some scary stuff. Were those people on skis? Can you give some details?"
---------
Both guys were on boards, strapped in, not walking about.
One was on the Rognon galacier just off the side of the Point de Vue run from Grands Montets. He was lucky as no one saw him fall down, and his absence was noted by a count up of numbers in the group. He got pulled out by mountain rescue having been scalped during his fall into the hole. Very nasty incident, it was actually the guide who was with him who told me this story, and I can tell the whole episode haunts him a bit.
Can't quite remember where the second one was, possibly on the Trient plateau somewhere, but that was pure bad luck. The guy I know was following others in his group across a snowbridge and it failed underneath him. He went a long way down, but was pulled out fine, if a little shaken.
Both these guys still snowboard, Jeff still rides on glaciers, not sure about the other chap.
...and the moral of the story? Don't know really. Personally I try to read the terrain as best as possible avoiding suspicious dips, keep my speed up and try not to stop in crevassed sections. I always have a harness and crevasse rescue kit, and probably ought to wear a helmet too. Maybe the best way to minise risk is to make sure there's always someone watching you ski any dodgy sections, although that's exactly the sort of thinking that goes out of the window when there's a group staring at two foot of fresh pow!
In reply to MikePemberton:
Another observation:
The first person I saw falling into a creavasse in winter was a person in a guided group.
We were ascending Pigne d'Arolla (coming from Cabane de Dix) and there was no indicator of crevasses. All groups went up without ropes.
The guy of the guided group was the seventh person of his group who passed the passage - which turned out to be an unstable snowbridge - and fell 25m, no rope but luckily he got not injured apart from a shock... a helicoptor took him to hospital.
Another observation:
The first person I saw falling into a creavasse in winter was a person in a guided group.
We were ascending Pigne d'Arolla (coming from Cabane de Dix) and there was no indicator of crevasses. All groups went up without ropes.
The guy of the guided group was the seventh person of his group who passed the passage - which turned out to be an unstable snowbridge - and fell 25m, no rope but luckily he got not injured apart from a shock... a helicoptor took him to hospital.
In reply to claka:
Mike, was that in 1996? I saw exactly what you described when I was on an introductory ski touring course based in Arolla.
> (In reply to MikePemberton)
> The guy of the guided group was the seventh person of his group who passed the passage - which turned out to be an unstable snowbridge - and fell 25m, no rope but luckily he got not injured apart from a shock... a helicoptor took him to hospital.
> The guy of the guided group was the seventh person of his group who passed the passage - which turned out to be an unstable snowbridge - and fell 25m, no rope but luckily he got not injured apart from a shock... a helicoptor took him to hospital.
Mike, was that in 1996? I saw exactly what you described when I was on an introductory ski touring course based in Arolla.
Great discussion thanks everyone for all your comments! It's sobering to hear about a few incidents where appearently there was a fall while going downhill. It's obvious there is some degree of objective danger involved here... I'm not sure the lessons learned but as I'm skiing this kind of terrain on a daily basis now I'm curious how this thread will continue and what will come of it.
All the talk of accidents... on the "happy news" front, Zermatt got 20cm yesterday making for some nice off piste glaciar skiing this morning. Skiied "Spiegal Wand" and the Kliene Direct and everywhere. Lots of awesome riders out in force, doing some sick lines. Ohh yeah, winter's on the way...
All the talk of accidents... on the "happy news" front, Zermatt got 20cm yesterday making for some nice off piste glaciar skiing this morning. Skiied "Spiegal Wand" and the Kliene Direct and everywhere. Lots of awesome riders out in force, doing some sick lines. Ohh yeah, winter's on the way...
In reply to John Blab: I know this is a climbing board and we're pushing off topic here, but for those interested a friend and I just shot a little 5 min freeride short for your viewing pleasure... mostly off piste glaciar skiing in Zermatt with some jibbing through in for completeness sake:
http://birtle.com/Videos and click "First Tracks"
Please note there are some issues with this player, I should have time to work on a version 2 but until then:
1. Click the First Tracks icon - video window appears
2. Click the PAUSE button.
3. Watch as the little green line slowly marches across the screen and WAIT
4. When it gets nearly finished, hit the PLAY button to play the video
http://birtle.com/Videos and click "First Tracks"
Please note there are some issues with this player, I should have time to work on a version 2 but until then:
1. Click the First Tracks icon - video window appears
2. Click the PAUSE button.
3. Watch as the little green line slowly marches across the screen and WAIT
4. When it gets nearly finished, hit the PLAY button to play the video
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Elsewhere on the site
Loading Notifications...