UKC

So I've been learning about trad climbing for ages now, and I really want to get out on rock. The guy I've been learning from is pretty set in his ways, and makes me set up a full trad belay when we go out. I think the knowledge gained from this is really useful, but what about a cordelette? After reading about them, I'm surprised anyone even uses the traditional method. Are there any drawbacks to using a cordelette?

Sorry for my ignorance, I'm still new to trad!

Chris

In reply to Chris Ellyatt: like anything trad, experience and judgement counts more than the tool - have a look at web-o-lette from Mountain Tools in the US. So, So good.

Cheers
LD

In reply to Chris Ellyatt:

There's loads of ways you can safely build a belay, cordlette obviously being one of them. Each have strengths and weaknesses, cordlette does not stand out as massively better than other methods to my mind at least.

What is perhaps worth mentioning is that despite the amount of discussion it generates, constructing a belay is actually one of the simpler things you'll do while climbing and it's really not that important to get it 'just perfect', good enough is, well, good enough.

jk

In reply to Chris Ellyatt:

I think they are fiddly because they are sooo long. Clovehitching anchor points with the rope so you can easily equalise them is simplicity itself requiring no extra gear or slings.

In reply to Chris Ellyatt:

The main disadvantage of a cordelette is that it doesn't self equalize. That means that, no matter how carefully you build it, it will balance the load unequally on all the pieces. It can especially be an issue when the second reaches the belay, if he doesn't climb perfectly aligned with the direction of the anchor, a fall could result in a single piece taking the entire force.

Cordelettes are among the simplest, fastest and safest anchors you can build, but they are not perfect and you need to be aware of their limitations and know alternatives.

In reply to Simon Lee:

But a pain if the leader gets injured and you have to do a self-rescue. It's also an issue that there is no master point a second can clip into quickly when he reaches the belay. And for hanging belays, it can get very crowded, very quickly.

In reply to nattfodd:
A belay that has redundancy, will take loads from different directions and won't drag the belayer about much if one piece fails is a good idea. I'm not convinced that equalisation or self equalisation of forces is possible very often.
Any loads on the anchors will be unequal unless the angles between the anchor ropes and the rope down to the second are equal and don't change if the second falls. You might be able to belay from a position exactly between the two anchors and exactly in line with the top of the pitch if there are two perfectly placed stakes a few meters back from the top of that particular route at the top of the crag. Otherwise you can only select something that seems about right constrained by the places you find for nuts etc, a stable/comfy belay stance, view of second/leader and directions of possible load if second/leader falls.
I find 3 anchors comforting, but the geometry to equalise is highly unlikely as it assumes that 5* things partially determined by nature line up right.
* 5 things = 3 anchors, direction of load when holding a fall and space for belayer

In reply to nattfodd: There are variations to the cordelette that allow for a small amount of equalisation with out excessive shock-loading should an anchor fail.

Steve D

In reply to Chris Ellyatt:

A cordellete is only one way of making a full trad belay. Its advantage is that its easy to clip a second into the belay once they have finished their pitch (especially good if you don't intend to alternate leads). Its disadvantage is that it only works when the anchors are in a favourable position and you have a bloody long bit of sling to carry up the route without it getting in the way. Personally they always seem to me more trouble than they're worth.

In reply to Chris Ellyatt:

cordelette is a useful tool to have in the box. Good in some circumstances, for many other circumstances it is a bit of a faff and just one extra bit of kit to have to carry.

they are good if you are doing something like abbing into a hanging stance or planning to lead in blocks. As has also been pointed out they don't equalise meaning in most cases there is a single bit of gear taking most of the force, which most of the time isn't a significant problem but may be an issue if the gear in the belay isn't totally bomber.

90% of the time these days I just clip a half rope to each anchor point and clove hitch back to my harness as Simon suggests as I've found it to be the most efficient solution in most cases.


As with most things there's no single 'best way' to set up a belay. Each situation is different in terms of the anchors you have available and what you are going to want to do with the belay. Some situations will lend themselves more to a cordelette, in other situations is faster, and potentially a better anchor if you tie in directly with the rope.

It's good get in the habit of thinking through why you are doing things a particular way and whether you could be doing them differently/better. Have a play with a cordelette, but try not to fixate on one single way of doing things. Practice evaluating the systems you are using, work out the pro's and con's of each method and the best solution for each individual situation.

In reply to Chris Ellyatt:
For me the main problem with using one on UK trad is that it tends to force people to not look very far for the belay. In the UK one often ends up with part of the belay being a tree or a fence post or a block 10m from the stance, or 2m up the start of the next pitch. With a cordelette one needs to site the belay and the stance in the same place and hence it isn't as flexible.

In reply to plexiglass_nick: Particularly agree with the last paragraph. As with all climbing techniques (both movement and gear placement), it's all about suitability. Choose the right method for how you will use your belay. Remember that a cordelette does need to be carried up the route, and 8m (4m long loop) of webbing is not a small thing to carry. Andy Kirkpatrick has an article on cordelettes somewhere.

In reply to Chris Ellyatt:

Thanks, some really informative and useful replies. Sorry if this is supposed to be obvious, but a lot of you talk about some situations not lending themselves to using a cordelette? Are these just when the anchors are far apart? This is all a learning curve for me!

Thanks again,

Chris

In reply to Chris Ellyatt:

Correct.

In reply to Chris Ellyatt:
Or when you only have or need one anchor such as a stake, a tree, a huge rock or a thread.

In reply to Chris Ellyatt:

Good article for you here: http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/site/main_articles/making_a_cordlette_and_m...

Buy one/make one, try it, learn it, explore other methods of constructing belays.

A particular situation will lend itself to a particular skill/set up.

I would use Cordlette/long sling where anchors where plentiful and within reach(ish). And also if I were leading the next pitch too - as this type of belay lends itself to easy clipping in when the second arrives and and a quick back-stack of the rope before leading off.

In reply to Chris Ellyatt: I find cordellette either too short or too bloody long. stick with arranging belays with your rope but learn how to set up belays with a sling/cord for the times when there is not enough rope!!

In reply to Chris Ellyatt: There are a couple of things that I find a cordlette, snake sling or Webolette useful for. 1. It's easier for changing over on a belay if the second is not leading through. 2. For setting up an equalised belay for direct belaying, especially if there are more than 2 anchor points. In most instances however it is quicker to use the ropes and/or slings which probably gives better equalisation.

Al

In reply to Merlin:
I've not looked back since reading that a year ago. I use a 5m length of 6mm static with a fig 8 on the bight at each end. It so versitile its great. I climb a lot without swinging pitchs so my second can just clip in to the belay with his rope and I take the snake cord with me on the next lead. It was invaluable the other week - climbing as a 3 on pure ice, belay was 2 good screws and 2 good warts, due to the length of the cord it was easy to make these belay gears into 2 x 2 x 2 <screw and a wart for me and the second and the third then clipped the 2 screws> All equalled out, each climber belayed to 2 bits and no faff. Great and cheap. added bonus is I no longer carry tat either.

In reply to Alex Buisse:

That's hardly something you normally consider when building a belay.